.45-70, .405 Grenadier, and the 300gr bullets they each shoot.

.458 Sierra
Dia = .458"
Wt. = 300gr
BC = .145
SD = .204


.405 Hornady
Dia = .411
Wt. = 300gr
BC = .215
SD = .251

MORE TO FOLLOW...

Nice!
Now let's see the 35 and 30 versions

Now THAT is a fine looking wildcat for a Marlin.
What I like most is he gave it enough neck for cast bullets.

Cheers, John

What a fine looking and practical round!

The 40-65 Improved...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The 40-65 Improved...

Not quite.

Parent case is the 7.62x54R. Slip a Russian in the Marlin and pull the trigger.
You get a shwumpang! and eject a .405 Grenadier case. I don't expect a shortage of brass.

I like it!

I can see a very nice woods walker special here, using a hex receiver Mosin.

What is the actual bullet diameter?

It is made to shoot the same .411 bullets that the Winchester .405 shoots but it should do fine with both .411 and .410. I had it barreled by McGowan and the twist is 1:14". It was designed specifically for use in the Marlin 1895. With 300gr bullets the OAL is just right. The rim is close enough to the .45-70 that it loads, extracts, and ejects without any alteration. Nevertheless, I will probably replace the .45-70 extractor with a .444 extractor just because the .405 Grenadier rim thickness is closer to the .444 and the part costs less than $10.

In a bolt rifle it should be able to handle the longer 400gr bullets. It would be a better choice than the .45-70 for the Enfield or Siamese because the cartridge is much closer to the original dimensions of the .303 and the 8x52 cartridges those were designed for. It would also work in the Nagant but that rifle's magazine would need some work.

However, as mentioned, the cartridge was specifically designed for the Marlin 1895 rifle. Here is the rifle. The barrel is 22" long. I have some sights to install - a Brockman's tritium front and a Wild West Guns ghost rear.

This week I will be sending fired cases out to have custom loading dies made. Then the fun will begin.

Neat project. Are you going to have Hornady do the custom dies? I have found Hornady custom dies to be exellent and up to half the cost of RCBS or Redding custom dies. Hornady has built some of my custom dies by just sending them my wildcat reamer print and a couple parent cases, not even formed/fire formed. On the other hand RCBS has charged me $300.00 for a set of custom standard FL dies and Redding quoted me $412.00 for the same set. I found out later that Hornady would have done them for &140.00.

Hornady does a exellent job on custom dies at about half the cost of custom RCBS or Redding dies. RCBS has charged me $300.00 for a set that Redding quoted me $412.00 for, then I found out Hornady would have done them for $140.00.

Hi Grenadier,
Do you think you will be able to match the performance of the 405Win???
A great practical wildcat on CHEAP brass, can't beat it with a stick.

Who made your reamer, and do they have the print on file????

Damn nice rifle too

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Hi Grenadier,
Do you think you will be able to match the performance of the 405Win???

Simple answer is no. The .405 Grenadier was made specifically for the Marlin rifle. It would only be possible to match the .405 Win at pressures that are not prudent in the Marlin rifle. The goal is to "approach" the velocity of the factory .405 Winchester. That would put it in the 2050-2100fps range, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

The purpose was not to create a magnum-ized Marlin. The raison d'être for the .405 Grenadier is to make a cartridge that will shoot the 300gr .405 bullet to reasonable velocities safely in the model 1895. The 300gr .411" bullet has a much better B.C. and a much better S.D than either the 300gr .458" bullet (.45-70) or the 265gr .429" bullet (.444 Marlin). Strength of the Marlin action was another consideration. A Marlin chambered for .405 Grenadier has thicker chamber walls than a Marlin chambered for .45-70. I wanted to use a case that would always be easy to obtain and the 7.62x54R is ubiquitous. I also wanted a case that would be easy to form. Firing the Russian cartridge in the .405 Grenadier chamber is all that is needed to make a case. Finally, I wanted a cartridge that would work in the model 1895 action with little or no alteration of the action. So far, it is working without any changes to the action.

You could load the cartridge to higher pressure, matching .405 Win performance, in rifles like the Ruger No. 1 and the P14 Enfield but those rifles can chamber so many more powerful rounds there is no practical purpose to chamber them for the .405 Grenadier. For example, why chamber a Ruger No. 1 for the .405 Grenadier when you can chamber it for the 450/400 and shoot the same bullets faster at lower pressures? [/QUOTE]

quote:

Who made your reamer, and do they have the print on file????

I will make the drawing freely available. But first I want to give the cartridge a work out. There may be unforeseen disadvantages or problems with it. What good would it be, for instance, if neck separation was a problem? I don't anticipate anything like that but I just want to know for sure with some real world trial and error. I also want to work up some sane loads. After that, if all goes as anticipated, I will be happy to send out/post copies of the drawing that include a little "use at your own risk and I assume no responsibility" sort of disclaimer and warning.

And then, Phatman, if you want, I will be happy to loan you my reamer.

Just curious. I wonder what the velocity is of the 7.62 Russian round out of the Marlin???

Now, I think that is a thoroughly practical and well thought out wildcat. I'm impressed, and the fact that you're willing to make prints available and or loan/rent the reamer says volumes about your ethics, all positive.

Good job!!

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Now, I think that is a thoroughly practical and well thought out wildcat. I'm impressed, and the fact that you're willing to make prints available and or loan/rent the reamer says volumes about your ethics, all positive.

Good job!!

Excellent looking round and a GREAT write-up!!
I'm sure it will live up to your expectations!

Jim

....sounds like the perfect round for what I'm after. I'm looking at re-barrelling my Siamese,which is already in 7.62x54R, to a thumper as I have a Mosin in this calibre.Can't wait to hear how youre tests went!! ....especially, because at the moment I can get 54R boxer primed brass for $40/100

Roger

......its hard to tell from the photo's, but is the shoulder blown out? The 405G appears to have less body taper than the 54R......or am I just losing the plot again.....still !

Roger

I think I'm talking for quite a few of us when I say, we,re all waiting with baited breath for you to test this new round......so whats happening? your public needs to know! give us something, a crumb of information,anything!!

yours in anticipation

Roger

.......whats happening?? We're still waiting for your test results on this excellent appearing wildcat.
I don't want to do the wrong thing and steal your thunder, but I'm about to build my own version of this cartridge,I would prefer to give you the credit and use your version, but hunting season starts in a few months here and I would like to get this thing built. Please feel free to PM or email me as I can't seem to be able to PM you.

Cheers

Roger

king.roger02@gmail.com

Interesting round for a Marlin.
The same thought for a Savage 99, equaling the 400 Whelen is to find a detachable magazine 308, find a detachable 284 win mag magazine, rebore the Savage to .411/284 and you will surpass the 405 Winchester in a much more compact rifle than the 95 Winchester. Unlike the Marlin, spitzers are no issue either.



.

The russians used 1895 winchesers in 7,62*54r they left some in finland then it became a own country.
Sako makes a 9,3*53r cartridge, probably most for rebored kiivari 7,62*54r rifles.

Cool cartridge. How different is it from the 38-56 IMP.?

I am not a lever gun guy, but I really like this one. Seems to me it would be superb in a nice single shot, too...

......I think it would be great in a Lee Enfield as well as a double rifle.

Roger

Okay, okay, you guys got me moving on this project again. I have had several irons in the fire but here is some more as of today.

WARNING: The following data and information is relevant only to my rifle. You load and re-load cartridges at personal risk of injury or death. The loads and information listed may not be safe in your rifles and cartridges. I do not suggest the use of any information I provide in any of your firearms. Use any information I provide about my loads and firearms at your own risk.

Here is some pertinent info from using my cases fire formed from Winchester 7.62x54R ammo:

Case length = 2.1"
OAL of the Hornady 300gr .411 FP bullet = .97"
OAL of the cartridge with Hornady 300gr .411 FP (Flat Point) bullet loaded to the cannelure = 2.6"
Barrel twist is 1:14"
I used a Case Capacity of 65gr of water and entered that into the Powley Computer. I believe the case capacity is a little more, but using 65gr gave me a starting point.

Powley Computer (Load Computer) came back with a recommendation of IMR4198 powder and listed a velocity of 1984fps with 39.4gr. I only had IMR3031 on hand. I have other powders inbound and will update my info later using at least one more powder. For now, here is what I loaded and the average velocities my chronograph indicated. Chronograph was ten feet from the muzzle. I used Federal Large Rifle Primers - #210.

1266fps with 32.8gr of IMR3031 - I wanted to make sure the cases were fully formed.
1325fps with 36.7gr of IMR3031 - Very mild
1608fps with 42.0gr of IMR3031 - Mild
1955fps with 48.5gr of IMR3031 - Sorry, folks, I need another powder. IMR3031 filled the case long before the full potential of the cartridge was reached. I believe this to be the max load with IMR3031 simply because you can't add any more. The bullets bottomed out on the powder and had to be slightly compressed (~ 1/10"). This load was very tolerable, much more so than 300gr .45-70 factory loads.

I put the velocity information into the Powley Computer (Pressure Computer) and, for 48.5gr of powder and 1955fps it came back with 39,400 CUP. Accuracy of the Powley Computer can vary considerably . Nevertheless, I think I can safely get a good deal more velocity, more than an additional 100fps, with another powder, perhaps IMR4198 as suggested by the Powley.


I took a picture. From left to right - .45-70 case, Winchester 7.62x54R ctg, .405 Grenadier ctg, .405 case fire-formed from Win 7,62x54R



Looking at the picture above you can see that fire-forming the case from the Russian round didn't completely form the shoulder angle. However, I loaded cases formed from the Russian rounds and cases that had already had full loads fired from them. I saw no measurable velocity difference between the two so I plan to use fire formed cases and reloaded cases with the same loads.


For quick comparison:

Remington Factory 300gr load for the .45-70
Muzzle velocity: 1810 fps
Velocity at 100 yards: 1497 fps
Velocity at 200 yards: 1244 fps
Muzzle energy: 2182 ft/lbs
Enegy at 100 yards: 1492 ft/lbs
Energy at 200 yards: 1030 ft/lbs


300gr Hornady .411 FP and 48.5gr of IMR3031 in the .405 Grenadier
Muzzle velocity: 1955 fps
Velocity at 100 yards: 1625 fps
Velocity at 200 yards: 1347 fps
Muzzle energy: 2546 ft/lbs
Enegy at 100 yards: 1760 ft/lbs
Energy at 200 yards: 1209 ft/lbs

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Cool cartridge. How different is it from the 38-56 IMP.?

The 38-56 fires a .375 caliber bullet whereas the .405 fires a .411 diameter bullet.

Also, I believe, the 38-56 is based on a 45-70 case. For use in the Marlin 1895 rifle using a case with a slightly smaller diameter leaves more metal in the chamber walls at the threads. The thickness at that point is very thin with the 45-70 or cases based on the 45-70. Shooting high pressure 45-70 loads in the Marlin may result in a catastrophic failure in the threaded area of the barrel. It has happened and you can find photos of just that thing on the internet.

I wanted to use the 7.62x54R case for two reasons. First, the case is smaller in diameter than the .45-70 case so barrel thickness in the threaded area is greater than in rifles chambered for .45-70. Second, I will never have trouble finding 7.62x54R cases. The 7.62x54R (Russian) is ubiquitous.

quote:

Originally posted by yumastepside:
......I think it would be great in a Lee Enfield as well as a double rifle.

I think Lee-Enfield (including Lee Speed), Mosin-Nagant, Siamese Mauser, and even the Krag. It should work in these firearms with little or no bolt face modification.

Rim sizes:
.405 Grenadier - 0.567 in
7.62x54R Russian - 0.567 in
.30-40 Krag - 0.545 in
8x52R Siamese - 0.550 in
.303 British - 0.540 in


.The .405 Grenadier can fill a great void for a big bore cartridge that will work in actions designed for rimmed cartridges. I intend to work up loads that would be suitable in these rifles.

I think there are already better choices for double rifles.

I plan loading pointed 300gr bullets (single shot only), Barnes 300gr TSX bullets, and some 430gr paper-patched lead bullets. The overall lengths will be too great for the Marlin to load for anything but single shot but the lengths will be just fine for the bolt rifles mentioned above. If all goes well, I have a Siamese and an Enfield and one or both of those will end up with a new .405 Grenadier barrel.

This will give you an idea of what the .405 Grenadier would look like if loaded to an OAL of 3", suitable for the bolt action rifles mentioned above.
Left to right: 7.62 Russian, dummy .405 Grenadier with 300gr TSX, Barnes 300gr TSX bullet

.....thats excellent! I'm looking to build this on my Siamese mauser, and using solely the Woodleigh 300gr bullet.
I've already spoken to the blokes at Woodleigh about using their projectiles and they are very keen to get a sample cartridge.I hope I have not been too forward in this?

I believe that the 300gr Woodleigh would do pretty much anything that I would want this cartridge to do...sambar/pigs/buffalo...especially out of a bolt action.

Roger

The.405 Grenadier fits my Siamese bolt without alteration, holds four cartridges in the magazine and feeds. I may be wrong, but I think a simple re-barreling will do for the .405 Grenadier in the Siamese.

.....there shouldn't be a problem with the siamese.....I rebarrelled mine with an old .303 SMLE barrel that I had, recut the chamber to 7.62x54R and made no other changes.Feeds flawlessly, never had a problem 'til a case ruptured and broke the extractor. The gun was originally built as a rough and ready pig gun but now with this new cartridge i want to rebuild and restock it along the lines of the old english safari rifles,apparently this style of action with the sloping/rimmed magazine was used for the early .450/500 british guns.

Roger

What about useing a 1886 Winchester? Are those stronger that the Marlin due to the huge vertical bolt lock up of the 1886. There is also the Win 1895 which we all know is quite strong. I'm just looking at ways to load this round to its FULL potential in a lever gun & not be limited by a action that is just strong enough to handle moderate loads. Now if you put the 405 in a Siamese... Katie bar the door!
Why hold a race horse back?

BTW I have a 38-56 form die & when you run a 45/70 case through it you come out with the 405 Grenadier! Go figure!

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
What about useing a 1886 Winchester?
There is also the Win 1895 which we all know is quite strong.
BTW I have a 38-56 form die & when you run a 45/70 case through it you come out with the 405 Grenadier! Go figure!

1886 Winchester - Should be okay but I don't have one and I haven't had the opportunity to try the bolt face, extractor, and feed mechanism.

Win 1895 - Why go there. That rifle is already available for, and can be altered to, the .405 Winchester.

If you run a 45-70 through anything you WILL NOT end up with a .405 Grenadier. The Grenadier is much smaller at the base. Just look at the picture again. A 45-70 case is on the left. The cartridge next to it is a 7.62 Russian, the basis of the .405 Grenadier. The two cases are not the same.

7.62x54R Base Diameter: .487
.405 Grenadier Base Dia: .487
.45-70 Base Diameter: .505
.38-56 W.C.F. Base Dia: .505

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
The russians used 1895 winchesers in 7,62*54r they left some in finland then it became a own country.
Sako makes a 9,3*53r cartridge, probably most for rebored kiivari 7,62*54r rifles.

Interesting!
In a bolt action what velocity can be achieved with 300 grain bullets at 60k psi?

quote:

If you run a 45-70 through anything you WILL NOT end up with a .405 Grenadier. The Grenadier is much smaller at the base. Just look at the picture again. A 45-70 case is on the left. The cartridge next to it is a 7.62 Russian, the basis of the .405 Grenadier. The two cases are not the same

As for the 1886 action it is a easy conversion to the 38-72 (IMP/375x45-70 IMP). Just rebarrel. So the 1886 should work great with your 405R or a 411-70IMP. Your 405R in a Siamese is really getting my attention.


You're right. I just found a ruskie round & the base is smaller. I thought the ruskie & 45-70 were the same base diameter. I stand corrected.

Boomstick - That pressure is more than the 7.62x54R case was made to handle. I think staying with pressures suitable for the .303 British is more prudent. The .405 Grenadier will never be a .400 Whelen. But then again you can't load the .400 Whelen in a Siamese, Enfield, or Marlin. A suitable bolt action rifle chambered in the .405 Grenadier would be a 3400-3600 ft-lb at the muzzle type of arm. Not quite an elephant and cape buffalo killer but good for most anything else.

Interesting!
In a bolt action what velocity can be achieved with 300 grain bullets at 60k psi?

Not 60k psi!

sakos load
9.3x53R Finnish GAMEHEAD 16,6g 256grain 0,244 685m/s 3877j

A slight correction:
Barnes does not and has never made a 400 gr .411 TSX bullet. They only make a 300 for the 405 Winchester. The "old" X was made in .411 325,350 and 400. (I have a stash). The 400s will not stabilize properly in a rifle twisted for cup & core 400s (Swift, Woodleigh) because they are a long as an Atlas Rocket.

400 Whelen with 350 gr Old X





.

Oops, you are correct, 300gr TSX.

So is this pretty much a 416 Barnes except in .411? Or am I missing something?