This may be an old topic, but has anyone done a 458x2" American, except in 416 instead of 458 ??
Or whats available in a smaller case 416.....remamber, we don't have dinosaurs or elephants here in Oz!!

Roger

Mmmmhhh it should be an interesting round. In other words a short 416 Taylor

Sounds like the 416 Whisper.

Yes Pivi, basically the same relationship as the 458 American is to the 458 Win.

Roger

Frank Barnes did a version to work through a Marlin 1895 for use with cast bullet...very long neck and used the 45-70 case...basically a shortened 45-70 or 458 WM, standard length 450 M or WSM case would work.

I played around with designing a "416 Marlin/WSM" using the 450 M and WSM cases just necked down for use in the Marlin 336/1895 receiver but never went beyond a few drawings and possible load combinations. The 416 WSM had already been done when I was playing, but I hadn't found it yet.

Yes...it is nothing but a shortened 416 Taylor and I have a 416 Taylor...

I think it would be an excellent proposition for a SA receiver or levergun. The only problem being there is already a very nice 405 Win that could be necked up the few thou and it is already well established and the 416 Barnes or 416 WSM that could be used in the levergun/SA application.

The only fly in the pie is all the "already been there" readily available 40-50 cal's standing shoulder to shoulder with the 416 cal's

If I had the time and money I would have one already irregardless of all the other cannons I have.

Good idea you have...!!

Luck

ADDITIONAL INFO

GOTO Bearthooth http://www.beartoothbullets.co...ive_tech_notes.htm/7 for James Gates rendition of the 416 X 2" Beartooth.

We emailed while I was doing my rendition...his has a long neck for cast bullets and mine had a much shorter neck for cast AND jacketed bullets plus the case was longer at 2.225" for a COAL of 2.60" for my modified Marlin 336.

Luck

Ken Waters has a 416 Express in his pet loads book. A 350 rem mag necked up to 416. Easy to make either w/ 350 mag brass or any "standard" belted case. Or, you could call it a 416 Taylor short. Or add some marketing and call it a 416sm whiz bang.

416 rooger...?

Rich
DRSS

May I humbly suggest the 416 B&M or the soon to be 410 B&M.
The 400's have better bullet and velocity options. Shoot 200 grain pistol bullets, 300 grain 405 Win bullets to 400 grain 450/400 bullets.
There has been done the 410-450 Marlin that reproduces 405 Win performance.
A 400 WSM, 400-376 Steyr, 400-284, 400 RCM and 400-350 Rem Mag would be sweet too.

The "Rooger" case, shortened, would also be a very good one for the leveraction brigade in a caliber small enought to have a shoulder...411, 416 or maybe a 44 - 45 cal.

Yeah the 284 case gets "no respect". It has been run up and down as far as it will go...I've played with several up to 35 cal...I was thinking about a 338/284 or 375/284 on a Sav 99 but then the WSM case came out and now the 338 Fed.

I think once you pass the 30 caliber everyone wants a bigger case to go along with the bigger calibers and we forget about all the very good "medium" sized cases that will do an excellent job for 90% of the required work.

Maybe the B&M series will get "standardized" it's a good case.

Lots of very good cases to play with, so little time, so little money...

Luck

barnes (the writer, not the bullet maker) necked the 450 marlin down to 411 ... though there 416 barnes is basically a 450 alaskan necked to 416 ...

When Marlin came out with the 450 M for the 336/1895 receiver and changed the threads from square to "V", it increased the strenght of the action and reduced the amount of messing about doing 348 case based cartridges like the 450 and 50 Alaskan's...just a barrel/chamber job without the additional thread mods.

It allowed the use of cases with base OD up to RUM/WSM size so opened up a whole area of wildcatting for those lever guns. I still have my "416 Makatak" at the top of my todo list for My 336 Marlin, but I doubt I will "getrdone" anytime soon.

I worked up a whole range of calibers for the 450M case, most had already been done on the 458WM case, and the same with the RUM/WSM case...nothing new or exciting...They were designed for use in the "V" threaded Marlin receivers, either a rechamber or rebore.

The idea was to use a smoother feeding case and ease and economy of accomplishment and components and a case capacity from 80 to 95 cc, for the 336/1895 Marlin receivers.

The 450 M and WSM case/COAL was slightly shorter but the RUM case can be trimmed to 2.25"-2.30" and the velocities were comparable with the RUM/WSM having the edge.

A 450 Yukon, 45 RUM/WSM is basically just a rechamber for the 450 M receivers or wildcatting the 450M and 458 WM case to all the "good" calibers for leverguns.

Now there are many choices for caliber size.

I think the 416 cal has a very good choice of bullet weights with nice, relatively hi BC's so it turns a "woods rifle" into a medium range shooter that holds it's drop, velocity and energy well past 200 yds...at least compared to the 44 and 45 cal...plus it's not all that bad close up.

The recoil factor still causes the most pain and even moreso with the larger capacity case RUM/WSM.

Luck

....any idea what the pressures would be for a 416x2", would they still be comparable to say a 45-70 ??

Roger

I don't see any mention of the action you intend to feed this wildcat through. Did I miss that? I would really like to know. It's difficult for me to see the usefullness of a drempt up wildcat cartridge until I see the whole picture, most importantly starting with the action.

Thanks,
KB

........bit of a chicken and egg thing really....if I know what pressure it produces I can decide what sort of action to use.

Roger

Egg before the chicken -- cart before the horse -- both cliches sorta fit the situation.

Long time ago, I noticed that many people dreaming about rifles and such, think up these wildcat cartridges, and dwell on the specs of the cartridge, and don't give a thought to what action to use, or often even what the purpose is for the cartridge. I think it's kinda strange.

Generaly, when I'm thinking of some rifle/cartridge combo, I think about the action and cartridge for it as a package, definately not seperately. By the time I get the cartridge thought out I already know what action to use for it. IMO, the more odd the cartridge, the more important it is to have an action in mind, or it's a waste of time. There's just too many proven combos to waste time with something that provides nothing new in performance, and comes with the aggrivation of feeding issues, custom dies, custom reamer, no load data, and case forming to boot.

So, to my thinking, figuring out the action first, really cuts the BS down to something workable, rather than just dreaming.

For example, if you want to use a lever action, then the best bet for success is some rifle set up already for the 450 Marlin or 45-70, and rebarrel it to 416 and use the 450 or 45-70 brass necked down.

If you want to use a bolt action, then either the 450 brass, or other belted magnum brass will work.

If you want to use a single shot, then the 45-70 brass is the best bet, just neck it down to 416.

This specific wildcat could actually be used in either of the above mentioned actions, but probably the bolt action would be best.

Regarding pressure - since it's a wildcat the pressure is whatever you load it to be. You can custom load for any of the actions, but most likely the lever action will stand the least pressure.

Generally, dreaming up a wildcat is one thing, and usually entirely different than actually getting it into a shooting/functioning rifle. As a practical matter, it usually dawns on a guy that he can get a factory Marlin in 450 or 45-70, and buy some factory ammo, and go hunting. There are other great options to, such as single shot 45-70s, or the Ruger 416, etc.

It's relatively easy to load the factory cartridges in the 416/458 class down to the puny ballistics of the 416 x 2", if that's what you gotta have, but impossible to load the latter up to the performance potential of the former.

So, to be blunt, your 416 x 2" is BS, until you figure out what action to use, and then it's still just an idea that is no better and most likely not as good as what's available factory made.

If I just had to have a 416 on a belted case, it would be a 416 Taylor. There are plenty of actions to feed it through. Also, it could easily be downloaded to whatever your shoulder says is comfortable, and the top loads are ready if you are. IMO, the 416 Taylor has much greater resale value too. Dies, reamer, and brass is much easier to find, and load data too.

KB

Somewhere in my tome I indicated my 416 was directed at the Marlin 336/1895 receiver....SEVERAL times...AND the specific reasons...

Doing wildcats NEVER is for making something "BETTER"(for the most part), but for doing something DIFFERENT. Without wildcatters we would still be throwing rocks at lizards or walking...(WITHOUT shoes because SOMEONE decided having something between the thorns and the foot was a good thing)because we never would have progressed beyond the status quo.

To be blunt, Kabluewy, your logic always escapes me...you might go back and read some of your "stuff"...it is also full of OXYMORONS...and what the heck are all the links for?????

As far as receivers are concerned you can pick and choose. My initial work was for the Marlin receiver, but quickly turned to include any SA of ANY make. You reload for the pressure of the RECEIVER SAAMI SPECS, NOT THE CARTRIDGE SAAMI SPECS...IF YOU'RE SMART ANYWAY.

I have a 416 Taylor and I can get almost identical ballistics using the empty shortened RUM case at 2.25"/COAL 2.60" w/400 gr RN, case capacity 85 gr H2O, as my Taylor at 2.5"/COAL 3.25" case capacity 91 gr H20 with the same bullet, IN A SLIGHTLY MODIFIED LEVER ACTION SHOOTER to handle the longer cartridge COAL...what's not to like and where is the BS.

Besides, I don't wildcat to sell guns. I'm a wildcatter and I WON'T buy someone elses wildcat, even with a set of dies.

As far as comparisons are concerned, it's like the 416 RUM/WSM vs 416 Taylor vs 416 Rem vs 416 Rigby...everytime you to to a larger case, OF COURSE you gain a little more pizzazz, but 80% of the people hunting in N.A. NEVER actually need anything larger than a 30-06 anyway, BUT I guarantee the larger bullet makes a much bigger impression on the game.

You wanna use a standard 45-70 OR 450m, go right ahead, but don't give me a load of you garbage if I want to use something different.

This discussion started out as a question of "If or Has..." and the answer was a simple "Yes, it has, several times and here are some of the iterations".

Out of all the cases the RUM/WSM would be the better because it will feed in EITHER a bolt gun, or levergun much smoother than ANY belted case...and the large rim of the 45-70 is absolutely the worst, except for single/double rifles...But, hey...it's your shooter do what YOU think best.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Somewhere in my tome I indicated my 416 was directed at the Marlin 336/1895 receiver....SEVERAL times...AND the specific reasons...

Well ain't that sweet. My post was actually to yumpe, but your response will do as well. Sorry I missed the part about the 336/1985 in your post. I usually don't read them anyway because they are too long and boreing.

Doing wildcats NEVER is for making something "BETTER"(for the most part), but for doing something DIFFERENT. Without wildcatters we would still be throwing rocks at lizards or walking...(WITHOUT shoes because SOMEONE decided having something between the thorns and the foot was a good thing)because we never would have progressed beyond the status quo.

You certainly give yourself and other wildcatters a lot of credit. Design these wildcats for whatever reason you like, improvment or not or shoot yourself in the foot, I don't care.

To be blunt, Kabluewy, your logic always escapes me...you might go back and read some of your "stuff"...it is also full of OXYMORONS...and what the heck are all the links for?????

Read and learn something - that's the point, but if it escapes you, then you're not reading well, or not smart enough to figure it out, either way I can't help you. The links mostly came about as part of my signature, because of some issue on this forum that got me going, and I decided to make it a part of all my posts. You are seeing the condensed version. You can choose to read the links or ignore them, but if you want to argue about what's there, that would make my day. The gov't/religion links are for Texans specifically, but also for anyone who may be interested in the subject.

As far as receivers are concerned you can pick and choose. My initial work was for the Marlin receiver, but quickly turned to include any SA of ANY make. You reload for the pressure of the RECEIVER SAAMI SPECS, NOT THE CARTRIDGE SAAMI SPECS...IF YOU'RE SMART ANYWAY.

Wildcats don't have SAAMI specs, but of course one can handload a wildcat to approximate the pressure the receiver is designed for. However, unless you have the equipment to measure pressure, it's an approximation. Anyway, that answers yumpe's question about pressure.

I have a 416 Taylor and I can get almost identical ballistics using the empty shortened RUM case at 2.25"/COAL 2.60" w/400 gr RN, case capacity 85 gr H2O, as my Taylor at 2.5"/COAL 3.25" case capacity 91 gr H20 with the same bullet, IN A SLIGHTLY MODIFIED LEVER ACTION SHOOTER to handle the longer cartridge COAL...what's not to like and where is the BS.

I think your statment is BS, because I seriously doubt that you can get "almost identical ballistics" from the RUM case in a lever action compared to the belted magnum Taylor case in a bolt action. That's like saying you can ge 416 Rigby performance in a LA!!! That whole concept you are talking about is a real can of worms, IMO, and to achieve nothing but a waste off time and money.

This is a good example of why my logic escapes you, and your's doesn't make sense to me either. First, the idea of the short 2" wildcat isn't to duplicate the performance of the bigger cases anyway, which further reduces the wildcat's usefulness, and its very reason to exist is questionable. The wildcat question that started this thread is belted and the discussion went all over the place, especially with your input. Mostly my point is that we can dream up wildcats all day. It's relatively easy just looking at the cartridge, but when the idea moves to making it really work, it has to include the action. That seperates the BS from real, IMO, and until I read the originator of these ideas talking about feeding and function in a specific action, the whole discussion is still in the BS phase.

I wouldn't like it because I don't like lever actions. I don't like RUM cases either, especially modified or shortened. I don't especially like custom dies, and reamers either. Compared to a good modern strong bolt action, lever actions stretch brass, and can't stand the pressure, and talking about modifying the LA for a longer cartridge is redicilous IMO.

Besides, I don't wildcat to sell guns. I'm a wildcatter and I WON'T buy someone elses wildcat, even with a set of dies.

My point as well

As far as comparisons are concerned, it's like the 416 RUM/WSM vs 416 Taylor vs 416 Rem vs 416 Rigby...everytime you to to a larger case, OF COURSE you gain a little more pizzazz, but 80% of the people hunting in N.A. NEVER actually need anything larger than a 30-06 anyway, BUT I guarantee the larger bullet makes a much bigger impression on the game.

The real comparison is that the Taylor and the Rigby usually are in bolt actions, and you are talking about a wildcat for a lever action. IMO, it's two different classes of rifles.

You wanna use a standard 45-70 OR 450m, go right ahead, but don't give me a load of you garbage if I want to use something different.

I don't want either 45-70 or 450M. And as far as garbage, now that you have my attention, I'll make it a point to respond to some of your posts in the future, if just to keep your BS in check.

This discussion started out as a question of "If or Has..." and the answer was a simple "Yes, it has, several times and here are some of the iterations".

I saw some good recommendations, one was the reference to Ken Waters 416 Express, and Jeffe made a good suggestion. The reference to necking down 45-70 brass to 416 is a good suggestion, IMO, for lever action and single shot. The 416 Ruger is also a good suggestion

Out of all the cases the RUM/WSM would be the better because it will feed in EITHER a bolt gun, or levergun much smoother than ANY belted case...and the large rim of the 45-70 is absolutely the worst, except for single/double rifles...But, hey...it's your shooter do what YOU think best.

The RUM MAY be a better case, just looking at the case itself. But considering the whole picture, modifying the case, and modifying the receiver to work it, may result in a different conclusion. After all, the standard belted magnum feeds great in actions made for it, and the Ruger 416 has no belt.

IMO, your comment about 45-70 brass is BS, because it has proven to work well in lever actions for such a long time. IMO, if a guy was going to use a lever action for some 416 wildcat, it's a no-brainer to simply use 45-70 brass as the base. The RUM brass is way over-thinking it.

The bottom line is I can't figure out why anyone would want a short 416 instead of a 45-70 in a lever action. Bullet selection and factory rifles is so much greater in 45-70 that the whole idea is very very silly, IMO. It's all mental gymnastics, and not real. If it's real, show me pictures of finished and functioning rifles, then I may believe you.

Luck

Good luck with your project(s)

KB

....when you two stop taking shots at each other.......my initial post was only a question,I have a 416 Taylor, but as I like to play with SMLE's my thought was, if you can convert a No4 to 45-70 why not a similar sized 2"belted case ??Yes this is all theoretical, but thats what half of wildcatting is about.....now shake hands and play NICE !!

Roger

IMHO the 416 needs a minimum of 80 grains capacity where the 410 and 423 only need 75 due to softer bullets but with flat nose solids add another 5 grains to each due to longer bullets.
400 Whelen 75 grains capacity but if shooting bullets under 400 grains say 350 and under 75 grains will be good for the 416 and lighter solids.
35 Rem Mag 73 grains but if still 1.165" long necked up to 410 or 416 will be close to 75 grains capacity.
So to answer your question, A 2" would Be OK with lighter bullets but a 2.165" case would be good for lighter bullets and OK on 400 grain softs.

Now that we're talking again, I forgot to mention that Boomie most always has well thought-out ideas re wildcats. I don't know where he comes up with all that stuff. I'm wondering if he even has any "regular" firearms.

He mentioned the wildcat 416-376 Steyr, which is one that appeals to me as well as the 416 Taylor. Either one would be just about optimal performance for 416 IMO. And either would be relatively easy to get feeding properly in a bolt action receiver.

I'm going to say something that many will undoubtedly disagree with. It's about the SMLE #4 or whatever version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield#Rifle_No_4

There's a fine example of national pre-disposition run amuck - a carry-over from black powder days, and failure to scrap a good idea for it's time, for a better idea when the time was over-due. The 303 Brit cartridge should have been superseded by a rimless cartridge around the time the 30-06 was introduced. The SMLE should have been replaced about the same time. This is a fine example of the human trait to maintain the momentum of predisposed thinking, and it's phenomenal to think that it happened on a national level, and for such a long time.

Surely it happened the way it did mostly because of the need for expediency in the midst of two world wars, and it would be silly indeed to argue over the adequacy of the SMLE as a war tool and military rifle.

So, my point is that IMO the SMLE in any version is one of the poorest choices for a custom or sporting rifle of any sort. It sufficed for a military weapon simply because it was reliable, and because the brass was fired only one time, then discarded. This is a rear locking lug action that cannot be made to not stretch brass. I have heard that two reloads is about the most that can be safely had with brass shot in such a rifle. Furthermore, the rimmed cartridge in a bolt action is a poor idea, anytime, anywhere, and most especially when talking about the expense and expectations of a sporting rifle.

The SMLE has obviously demonstrated its worth over time, and that worth IMO is in its standard military configuration, with the 303 Brit cartridge - each cartridge shot only one time, and discard the brass, - not reloaded.

Thus, IMO, thinking of doing a wildcat on the SMLE action is silly. Shoot the 303 as it is, and find a better action for a wildcat project is my advice.

I would rather use a Mosin-Nagant action for a rimmed custom rifle than a SMLE action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

KB

Please do not take this the wrong way.
First is merely a question.... Do you own a SMLE ?? The SMLE to us is like your 03's, its a preference for a lot of older Australians, we grew up with them. A tight chamber, not a std military one, can give many reloads.
If only the best actions were used for custom rifles, only mausers or such would be used.
The ole' Smellie may not make the best custom rifle, but I believe they do make one of the best hard use/work rifles, whether in 303British or what ever variation you like.
As an Australian thats just my personal opinion, I love 'em.

Roger

Thanks Kabluewy
Assuming a Winchester 3" short action a 2.2" version of the 416 Taylor would be an efficient way to get 400 @ 2,150, 350 @ 2,250 and 300 @ 2400+
It would be the lightest recoiling cart because of the least amount of powder needed.

......so, back to my question, lets assume a 300 grainer ( as I said, no dinosaurs in Oz ), would it produce too much pressure for a No.4 smellie ??

Roger

......make a hell of a deep scrub sambar rifle

quote:

Originally posted by yumastepside:
Please do not take this the wrong way.
First is merely a question.... Do you own a SMLE ?? The SMLE to us is like your 03's, its a preference for a lot of older Australians, we grew up with them. A tight chamber, not a std military one, can give many reloads.
If only the best actions were used for custom rifles, only mausers or such would be used.
The ole' Smellie may not make the best custom rifle, but I believe they do make one of the best hard use/work rifles, whether in 303British or what ever variation you like.
As an Australian thats just my personal opinion, I love 'em. Roger

I don't own a Smellie. I've shot and handled a few. To me they are strange rifles, and the mechanism just doesn't feel right. The Mauser feels right to me. I don't know if that's for lack of experience with the Smellie, but I doubt it. If I wanted a SMLE of course I would buy one, but fact is I don't even want one. I know that they are sort of a national treasure in Australia, and if there is any logic in that then certainly it includes the 303 cartridge. Wildcatting on that action is another game.

Fact is, the Mauser '98 is a world treasure, from the genius and innovation aspects, and was designed without the hangup of trying to make something better, that already existed from the black powder days, but a total re-think of things.

KB

There are plenty of good and cheap 300 grain 405 bullets. Would you consider going 410? If you make a case with similar capacities you won't have so much load development.
405 Win is 78 grains. A 2.2" win mag case should get you there. Modest pressure and you can pump it up a bit too.

Thanks boomie, now we're getting somewhere!Time to check case capacities and see what we can come up with for the old piss-poor Smellie

Roger

Dear Yuma,
I made one on a Remington 673[?] Guide Rifle that began life as a 300 SAUM. It feeds great with all the bullets I have tried which, I admit, have not been many. The Hornady 400s and The Speer 350s feed and shoot fine. The twist on this old McGowen barrel dictate the heavier shoot better. If I were to do it again? I would get a slower twist so the lighter twist would stasilize the lighter bullets. As far as pressure is concerned? I see little difference between it and my 458X2" American. Marginal at most.
Aloha, Mark

Lol
Awesome
would you keep the same taper as the win mag?
Was thinking minimal taper and short neck to keep the case short but with stubbie 405 bullets you can get away with a bit longer case. A 2.25" case should be about perfect for matching the 405 in capacity.

I converted a 2A SMLE into a 458 American...actually I used a 458 WM reamer. I can shoot 45-70, -90, and -100, single loaded, in it as well as the full length 458 WM case. The #4 SMLE is actually a slightly better receiver to use because the sights are MUCH better...I had to do quit a bit of mucking about to get a solid set made. Handloader mag had a very good article on doing a 45-90...the major problem with the rimmed case is getting it to feed through a magazine...you have to screw around way too much in modifying mags...one of the reasons I think for the demise of the 45-70 iterations on the SMLE...using a WSM/RUM, 444M, 450M or 458WM case makes it very easy...I didn't have to do much more than a little lip bending to get the 458WM cases to feed in the OEM 308 2A, 12rnd mag...6 down and one up the pipe.

By the way Kabluewy, I don't really give a good rat F*** whether or not you believe what I post...or if they are long and boring...you might take some of your own advice and read them through..YOU might learn something...all you have to do is use a Powley online computer and/or QL or Load from a Disk to see whether or not I'm lying. Of course there are NO SAAMI specs on wildcats...DUH...but you sure can use SAAMI specs for the receiver AND the brass and come up with a very good estimation of how far to go with the pressure.

I've been wildcatting for 45 odd years and I HAVE learned a thing or two, but I don't consider myself an expert OR the last word...just passing on information...someone taught me, I want to reciprocate. If you already know everything there is to know about all forms of shooting, then don't bother reading my posts.

I posted some of my problems and solutions on this forum if you are interested in checking it out...I also posted some pictures of the rifle AND the sights also...not sure if all the pictures are still available...

As far as case length goes, it depends on the bullet you want to use AND where the cannelure is located if you want to crimp...I shoot 350 and 400 gr Hornadys in a 2.4" length case, 300 gr in a 2.45" case, 435gr Trueshot hard cast in a 2.3" case. Case capacity for a 458 AMerican(458x2") is about 73gr H2O and the 458 WM is about 93gr H2O so you can calculate about 4 gr H20 per .100" of additional case length over 2"...the 2.3" case capasity is ~85gr H20 and the 2.4" case is ~89gr H20.

The SAAMI pressure for the #4 SMLE is at least the same as for the 308, but I use SAAMI for the 303 which is 45KCUP and keep it closer to 42KCUP...some have said the 4 is actually stronger...do a search online...all that information is available on the SMLE forums...including the conversions.

I found for this case and this conversion that AA2460 is the best powder, I checked with AA where I got the load information...AA2230 is also very good, but I could get 2-3 more reloads with AA2460 at the same velocity as with AA2230.

The 444M case is very good case to use...lots of JDJ wildcats available to pick from. The 450M/458WM covers up to 45 cal and is a very simple barrel change...some work on the extractor(maybe...not always needed)...I would replace the 303 mag with a 308 2A mag and trigger bow, they are interchangeable...and the WSM/RUM case is basically just as simple a conversion as the others using the 308 12 rnd mag...the 303 mag is...again...a different story because of the taper to clear the rimmed 303 case.

While I was at this project I looked at calibers from 375 up to 50 and cases from 444M to WSM/RUM, Rigby and 505 Gibbs. The Gibbs was a little fat and would bind the magazine so it wouldn't fall out when released...I looked at the Rigby for a 50 cal but saved that for another project.

There are a whole bunch of wildcats AND standard cartridges that can be adapted for use in the 2A and 4 SMLE...even some that have a longer COAL...all you have to do is seat the bullet to fit the magazine.

Load from a Disk calculations for a "416 x 2.4" with a Woodleigh 400 gr bullet(about the shortest 400 gr jacketed) at 3.03" COAL using AA2460 is about 1900fs at ~45.5KCUP with a 22" bbl...Powley comes up with about the same using 4895...actual pressure and velocity will vary. Using the WSM/RUM or Rigby case and you will gain capacity which translates into energy.

Lots of ways to go with the SMLE...All you have to do is decide which conversion you want to do and then do it. It might not be a Mauser, has a short COAL, pretty or de rigueur, but it is very effective in the larger calibers.

I like mine...and with 7 rounds it has all the firepower one would need.

Luck

Yes, it has been done before.

An excellent article by Tony Winters appeared in either Handloader or Rifle magazine several years ago. A copy of the article is included in the book "Wildcat Cartridges, Vol. II". The article is titled, "10.6x51, or .40x2-inch, A belted mini-magnum for tough North American game".

The article includes a drawing with external dimensions and a drawing of the Clymer Mfg. Co. 10.6x51 reamer dimensions. Case capacity was computed at just under 60 grains of water. Using a Powley computer it was determined that velocity goals could be achieved within a desired maximum pressure of 53,000 c.u.p.

Loads listed include 270gr bullets at up to 2449fps, 300gr at up to 2332fps, 330gr at up to 2214fps, and a 400gr load at 1896fps.

Extensive load data is here: 10.6x51 (.416x2") Load Data

The link lists powders and velocities but doesn't give the charge weights. However, all the loads listed at the linked address are from the magazine article and that article does list charge weights.

So maybe 405Win capacity and pressures might be perfect for this rig. What is the max oal we are working with?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What is the max oal we are working with?

2.8" as shown in the picture I added above.

Thanks!
So a 2.25" belted win mag case duplicating 405 Win cacacity and pressure will be about perfect with the stubby 300 grain bullets that are usualy about .5" tip to canalure. Using 405 Win bullets and loads would save you so much time in load development not to mention using bullets designed for that functional impace velocity envelope. Should be good for conquering anything in Oz including those pesky kangaroos!

Grenadier... Do you recognize that Holland and Holland royal in my avatar?

quote:

Originally posted by yumastepside:
......so, back to my question, lets assume a 300 grainer ( as I said, no dinosaurs in Oz ), would it produce too much pressure for a No.4 smellie ??

Roger

......make a hell of a deep scrub sambar rifle

Roger,

Interesting discussion using the SMLE action for a 40 caliber wildcat or the .405 Winchester.

Ok .303 Brit SMLE rebarreled to .405 Winchester…Looking at the CIP/SAAMI specifications here are the issues that you’re looking at:
CartOAL: 3.0752” for the .303 and 3.1748” for the .405
Base Diameters: are within 0.0008” (0.02 mm) of each other.
Rim Diameters: The .405’s rim is 0.0027” (0.07 mm) larger in diameter than the .303 Brit.
Pressure Levels: .405 Winchester Pmax is 35534 psi (2450 bar) while the .303 Brit Pmax is 52939 psi (3650 bar).

So, if the SMLE magazine will safely run the slightly longer length cartridge then it would be a go! The slight difference in rim diameter is likely within the manufacturing tolerances of the SMLE bolt face and if not it should be no problem opening it slightly to accommodate the .405 rim (especially is you’ve already done a 45/70 rim conversion).

If you do this rebarrel, the .405 Winchester factory loadings will be a good low pressure loading in the SMLE which hand loading to .303 Brit pressure levels definitely give potential to the .405 case.

I ran a couple of QuickLOAD scenarios using a 20” barrel and staying slightly under .303 Brit Pmax:
300gr Barnes TSX bullet…45.0 grs ADI AR 2207 gives 2205 fps (672 m/s)& 3239 ft-lbs (4391 Joule) at 49807 psi (3434 bar) and 100% propellant burnt.
300gr Hornady SP Interlock: 48.0 grs ADI AR 2207 gives 2231 fps (680 m/s)& 3316 ft-lbs (4496 Joule) at 47570 psi (3280 bar) and 100% propellant burnt.
350gr Swift A-Frame SS: 43.0 grs ADI AR 2207 gives 2027 fps (618 m/s)& 3192 ft-lbs (4328 Joule) at 50443 psi (3478 bar) and 100% propellant burnt.
400gr Woodleigh SN Weldcore: 47.0 grs ADI AR 2219 gives 1951 fps (595 m/s)& 3379 ft-lbs (4582 Joule) at 50179 psi (3460 bar) and 99.85% propellant burnt.

…I think any of the above loadings would put some hurt on Sambar or buff for that matter.

Creating the wildcat to match a specific gun is interesting. It does seem that 405 Win power and pressure is what would fit the bill. Matching the capacity of the 405 Win might be done well with a 348 case or a shortened 45-90 case to 2.25"

....lets get back to a belted magnum case,using a standard winchester belted case, which would be the preferable length to get 405 Win. power and presure,2.0", 2.2" or 2.25"
As I said before, I want to get away from a rimmed case, so the 348 is out, thanks anyway Boomie.

Roger

Well slightly over is better than under. I would do the 2.25" case. I think that would get the magic number to get the same capacity with a .5" neck so you could shorten the neck if using bullets over .5" tip to canalure. Maybe measure the capacity of a 458 win mag case cut back to 2.25" and subtract a few grains for necking down. This is a fun project. I hope it all goes well.
What should be the name of this lil bastard? Something simple like 410 2 1/4"? Something regional like 410 NSW? (New South Wales) something tribute to Teddy Roosevelt like 405 TR? How about 400 Australian? The world could use another Ausie wildcat

I built mine many years ago in Hawai`i on a Rem 600 action with a 21" McGowen barrel. I made the die from an extra 416 Taylor sizer I had. I had no pressure troule getting 2000 fps with the 400 bullets. Recoil is kinda bad as the little rifle only weighs about 7lbs. [un scoped] Unfortunately the twist dictated use of the 400s for beast accuracy. If I do another I will use a 673 Guide Rifle I have [300 WSM] and get a slower twist so I can shoot the 350s better [accuracy] suited for the game here. The 416 Went to Africa and never came back.
Aloha, Mark

LOAD FROM A DISK already list the 10.6X51(they call it 2"X416) and show it at 69.5 gr of H2O. I ran it throught as a .424 and it came out at 74.7 gr of H2O. The 405 Win is listed as 78.2 gr of H2O. Usesing a 300 WSM case a 424 would be 85.1 and a 416 would be 84.8 gr of H2O