Hey Boom if you are out there somewhere I received last week new 500 MDM headstamped brass! FYI

Michael

Congrats Michael!
post pics?
Let me know if you need help with that.

Hey Boom
Yes, I will send a couple photos to you in the next day or so via email. I now have 750 pieces of 50 B&M--500 pieces of 416 and 458 B&M, and 500 pieces of 500 MDM. They all look great and work perfect. Pete did a great job on them! All these come from the basic brass he had on hand, same brass used for Jeffe's ARs! Excellent stuff.

I am taking 100 of the 50 B&M and cutting them to Super Shorts--1.65--but we are having to inside ream them because the brass is much thicker at 1.65 inches. Looks good so far, this will give me 100 of these just in case for future travel.

Michael

Hey Michael...

Have you thought about a super short Jeffery case to 500? 500 short and fat kinda like a short and fatter Cyrus

Ooops... there I go again

I do think a short necked 1.75" WSM case necked to 411 or 458 would be cool. Aaargh! someone stop me!!!

trying to stop boomie is like trying to stop the rain ...

Hey Michael, I got the first test batch yesterday - cut, formed, trimmed and loaded NOW .. .458 AccRel adn .500 AccRel!!

boom, there it IS

Congrats again El Jeffe!
post some pics of these new kittens and their headstamped brass please...

Boomy
Like I said the other day, I am glad you on the other side of the country, if you were closer you would cost me a fortune!

Yep, have considered the 460 Weatherby case for a 500 cal--have 510 Wells now on big ruger. However I think this gets me away from my Winchester M70s and into a bigger gun. Ain't gonna do that! The 500 MDM fills the gap for me on almost a big gun! Very easy to dup 500 Nitro on a 21 inch Winchester M70. If I ever get a gun back-1 at SSK and the other at AI-then I think I can pretty easy get those 550s up to 2250 or better without much issue. So that more than serves my purpose, and keeps me in a Winchester M70. I will leave the fat guns to you.

Excellent Jeffe! I think I need to send you some samples--and you send me some samples to have on hand???

I will send both of you some photos next day or so.

Michael

Jeffe and Boom

Did you guys get the photos I sent yesterday?

M

YES!!!!

the 510 and 577 looked awesome

did you want me to post them?

Boom

Yeah post them if it is not too much trouble. Forget the 510 that was playing. You see I had Pete do the basic brass he had, head stamp only, and turn the rim to my specs, just slightly larger than norm. I do all the cutting, trimming, and forming here. So this basic brass is fantastic and big! I am only going to cut and trim 200 of the 500 I got from Pete to 500 MDM and I am saving the rest.

Now what am I saving them for? I don't know now, but I can tell you that if a fellow was of a mind to he could very easy cut the case to 2.8 or so, squeeze it down to .510 caliber and use all the .510 caliber Woodleighs, Swifts, and Barnes in a WINCHESTER action! It would have just a slight shoulder on it, nearly a ghost--very much like the 50 B&M Alaskan of mine, not as pronounced as the 500 MDM. And of course you know the story on control feed anyway! SO........

I doubt I will do that however, as I am tied pretty heavy to .500 and have excellent bullets.

The other bullets the .585 and .510 was some samples that JD sent down for me to take a look at. In particular the .510s are for the Whisper and they are experimenting on expansion at sub sonic for the animal control people, and special mil projects. That's what the slits are in the bullets for. Interesting stuff.

As for the 500 MDM I am looking forward to getting back on that project. After busting the second standard stock I had to send gun #1 to AI for a stock, they still have it. SSK still has gun #2 that will be stainless and already has an AI stock for it. Currently I have only been able to test the 1st generation loads for the 550 gr bullet (in the photo with the case and dummy round) and it is already at 2150 fps. I think 2250 maybe a tad better is where it will go, but for my use I think I drop it back down to 2150-2200 fps, which is more than enough. Taking it to Australia in september to test on Aussie buff--have 20 of them on quota now for culling shoot! Should be plenty good test work there.

Michael

Well guys been shooting the gun Saturday and Today trying to get some load data in the books. Not bad, so far looking at RL 15--H 322- and V-N140 as doing very good in the 500 MDM case.

With the 550 gr Solid 87/H322 is running 2205 fps--95/RL 15 is 2210 fps--93/V-N140 is 2165 fps. None of these are close to top loads yet. But I have to tell you that it is getting real close to my upper end of fun! Remember this gun has a 21 inch barrel and weighs 8.5 lbs with the new stock.


I have also started with the 510 gr Solid still have a long way to go with it, but at 2200 fps now-much easier to shoot.

Since Saturday I have put 50 rds thru it--stock is still good to go!

By the way it is growing on me too--I am beginning to like it a lot!
FYI

Michael

You are having fun!

Id keep with the 550 @ 2,200 load as the do all load.

With a .314 SD solid that will be a penetrator! What nose design?

Glad you like "Blondie"

Hey Boom

It is that big FLAT Nose solid, I think I sent you a couple of samples of it. I think I even loaded some in the dummy rounds I sent?????

IT is exactly the same as the 510 Solid--just added weight to the ass end to bring it up to 550 grs. The 510 will drive thru 65 inches of my wet print mix, completely thru an elephant skull from front to rear, and 7 feet of elephant from the rear and exit the chest, and completely thru broadside elephant. So the 550 should really drive! Of course all DEAD STRAIGHT LINE PENETRATION!!!!!

I am very pleased with 2200 fps with the 550. It is more than enough to do anything I want to do on the planet!

I am going to cool it on the 550 for a few days, start dropping down to the 510-485-470 HP-450s and see what I can do. Remember the 450 gr FN with the 3 cuts in the meplat? Did I send you one of those? I used some of those in the 50 B&M Long on buffalo at 2170 fps I think. While they did a good job, dead buffalo and all, I think those cuts in the meplat may be a function of velocity and rotation! If velocity is increased, then it should produce more hydrostatic shock (I think). So the 500 MDM should be able to boost the velocity of that bullet to 2400-2500 fps or so and I think increase the effectiveness of that particular bullet. Penetration is not an issue with it either!

Also I have the 470 Hollow Point we have been making. It opens into 6 big petals (like a Barnes) however at velocities above 2150 fps those petals start to shear off. Now in conventional thinking once a bullet starts to loose weight, then penetration is reduced-Correct? Yes-in a conventional sense! In this case once the petals have sheared off in the first 8 inches of penetration, then the remaining flat nose slug continues to penetrate in a dead straight line, and actually penetrates deeper by about 40-50% than if the petals remain on the bullet! This is not conventional thinking, and it has taken me a long time to wrap my brain around the concept. At this point, I think it is fine if the petals shear off, and the bullet continues to penetrate. The petals are continuing to do some damage, and wound channels appear just as damaging with or without the petals. So I intend to try these 470s at higher velocity, with intention of the petals shearing off and see what happens??

Whoa--getting ahead of my data now, so let me slow up. But so far so good!

Also had a brass issue to contend with. It appears that I had the size die down too far. A very small portion of some of my first cases started to separate from the case head! A turn or two up seems to have solved that little issue, and I only had about 4 that separated. You see I set the dies up without a rifle at the time. In addition if you look at some of the samples I sent you there is a bulge from the bullet seated! With the size die up, that bulge goes away-everything still goes thru the rifle slick. I think I have it now.

Oh and the 500 MDM brass from Quality! WOW that is some really strong good brass! Case expansion is very little with this brass! It is far stronger than the RUM brass-and that stuff is good! I bet Jeffe is seeing the same if he has fired any! It is "SUPER" brass!

Michael

not having the surface area of the petals to push back the now flat nose solid penetrates well. what is the weight of the shank?

Lower SD pistol non deforming flat nose solids do penetrate well. Those extra projectiles are good for damage on non DG game

Boom

News for the day! I did not get as much done today as I actually had to work this morning! Damn. However I was able to take the 510 Solid up to 2319 fps with 91/H322 and up to 2266 fps with 98/RL 15.

I am liking H322--less powder, more velocity, and pressures are still low. Not up to max yet. But I am going to tell you that 2300 fps with the 510 gr Solid is enough. For now I am stopping at that point with it. Also stopping at 2200 and change with the 550 Solid. I don't need anymore than that for these bullets--that 550 will slap run thru a buff or elephant from any angle. So what more do I need than that?

Now the 470 HP we discussed is up to a petal ripping off 2332 fps with 90/H322. I am taking it up another notch or two. Either way, at this velocity it should hammer thin skinned dangerous game up front, continue to penetrate and should hit hard on buff and the remaining slug continue on thru. I am going to try it count on it. NOw the remaining slug weighs in at 360 grs. I have a 426 gr version of this that I tested on cape buffalo in 2007 with the 50 B&M. I was running it at 2240 fps---it did not shear unless range was very short. In a close test on a down buffalo--10 ft--it sheared off completely and the slug drove from the bottom of the chest and exited the top of the back! So with the 470 at 2300 + I expect it to shear, the slug should give complete penetration. I think I can take it to above 2400 fps--will find out Thursday or so.

Also just started today with 1st and 2cd gen loads with the 450 JDJ Cut Meplat--90/H322 gives me 2345 fps with it so far. Will easy take it to above 2400 plus.

Lot's of powders look good with it, so I don't expect much issues and will test much after the initial test work with H322-H335-RL 15-V-N140. You or Jeffe got any suggestions on this???

OH--sidenote--I picked up some of those 300 gr Hornady bullets with the flex tip thing in them for lever guns-.500 caliber. Just to see what I could do with them in the 50 B&M Super Short and the 50 B&M Long. I have almost run out of powder space in both before reaching max pressures. In the 50 B&M Long 78/RL 7 gives 2535 fps and in the 50 Super Short 56/WW 296 gives 2425 fps. Can't get much more powder in those! Of course I am quite sure this bullet will explode on contact at these velocities--but I am going to test soon.

Michael

I won't say this is the final chapter for the 500 MDM, but I have accomplished all my goals that I had set forth, and well within pressure limits.

H 322 seems to be the top powder for it across the board. Giving best velocity, and keeping pressures down, with all the bullets tried so far.


Starting with the 550 gr barnes type FN solid with 87/H322 2205 fps and with 95/RL 15 2210 fps.

510 Solid 98/RL 15 2266 fps and 91/H322 2320 fps.

For giggles a 500 Hornady 93/H322 2379 fps. This bullet will perform best at 2100 fps.

470 SSK HP 95/H322 2436 fps

455 JDJ Solid 95/H322 2413 fps

426 SSK HP 97/H322 2502 fps

For giggles and grins 325 Barnes X 95/H322 2687 fps.

I may continue to monkey around with a few things, but I consider things ready to go to the field now! I will do some terminal tests with everything, probably this coming week. But load development will slow down now.

Remember this is a Winchester M70 with 21 inch barrel, 8.5 lbs.

I say it has turned out pretty good, now I am waiting for Gun# two in stainless!

Michael

Still working with the 500 MDM a bit, fine tuning some things. The last couple of days I have been doing some terminal test work with the 451 JDJ flat nose with the 3 cuts in the meplat, the 470 HP, 510 Solid and 550 Solid.

The 451 gr Bullet with the 3 little cuts is designed to move fluids, away from the bullet, causing trauma and damage. This is does. It is a valid concept and from shooting some buffalo with this bullet in the 50 B&M Long it seems to do a good job, on par with what I have seen from either a 500 Woodleigh or 500 Swift in 458 Lott. The tests I did on buffalo the bullet was doing 2170 fps in the 50 B&M. In the 500 MDM it is doing a tad over 2400 fps. I don't know this for fact, but I think this bullet should operate better at higher velocity, and higher rotational speed. It seems to do so in my wet print mix.

In the 50 B&M at 2170 fps this bullet penetrates to a total of 35 inches in the wet print mix, doing a great deal of damage for the first 12 inches, slowing down after that and drilling a .500 caliber hole. In the 500 MDM at 2400 fps it does a tremendous amount of damage for the first 15 inches of penetration, slowing down and going to a total of 28 inches. Impact at 20 yards for both tests. Most broadside shots on buffalo with the lower velocity 50 B&M at 2170 fps passed thru. Some angled shots stayed in the animal. The higher velocity of the 500 MDM causes more trauma up front, reducing velocity quicker by expending energy faster, thus giving less penetration than the lower velocity.

The 470 gr HP at 2409 fps hit at 20 yds at 2352 fps driving 4 inches before starting to loose petals, then lost all 6 petals between 4-15 inches causing a tremendous amount of damage in this area. The remaining slug weighing 360 grs continued on straight to a total of 24 inches. Performance was as expected. This concurs with earlier data on these bullets confirming that petals do not shear off until well inside the test medium--and the animal.

Now for the solids. The 510 gr FN solid at 2310 fps impacted at 20 yds at 2225 fps, driving dead straight to 64 inches total penetration. Found at the back of the box dead straight forward! Very Excellent! The 550 gr version of this same bullet at 2222 fps impacting at 20 yds at 2170 fps drove completely thru the test medium 65 inches, thru a 2X6 pine back of the box and into the dirt berm! Dead straight line penetration all the way! It does not get any better than this.

For those not in the know, I shoot a mixture of wet news print and magazines/catalogs to do test work. Roughly about 25%-30% magazines and 70-75% news print. This mix is at least 25-30% tougher than straight news print. To put things into perspective a 500 Woodleigh Soft point at 2250 fps in 458 Lott will penetrate 20 inches of this mix, 500 Swift A frame at 2275 fps from a 458 Lott will penetrate 24 inches of this mix, and a 500 Barnes FN at 2275 fps from a 458 Lott will penetrate 57 inches of this mix.

The 500 MDM is beginning to look pretty good so far. Really no surprises yet and certainly no disappointments.

Michael

Hey I might have the hang of this photo thing!

Nice Blonde!
Elephant hide?

Hey Boom

Yeah sorta figured out this photo deal I think!

Hey the blonde is getting better to me every day! Normally a dark brunette sorta guy, but it is growing on me! To be honest the photo does not do it justice.

Yes that is some of my elephant stash!

Michael

Hi Michael... on your hollow points... how about going to 4 petals or a dual diameter hole to keep the petals at higher speeds?

Well Boom, I don't know the answer to that to be honest! That is one that could be presented and see what we could come up with. I doubt that without being annealed that they would stay on regardless.

As you know I have been thinking and working this over for some time now. Currently after doing more test work I am more convinced that the petals breaking off is not a bad thing. As this is not a conventional bullet in the sense of once weight is lost there is less penetration--in this case once the petals break then penetration increases substantially so. Petals do not break off on impact--they are in the process from 4 inches of penetration to 15 inches of penetration, doing tremendous damage in this area, with the remaining slug continuing to penetrate in a straight line. I am a penetration nut--and this is beginning to suit me pretty well just the way it is!

Running this 470 HP at 2400 + it is doing some damage.

Michael

Boom

To continue our discussion concerning the petals, I loaded an example listed above.

As you can see the top test was at 50 yds, bullet had slowed to an impact of 1890 fps, all petals stayed on, penetration 14 inches. This is good penetration. OH and please forgive the typing error on the retained weight--it is 380 not 340, these bullets lost no weight, typing error is mine.

The photo where impact is is at 20 yds and impact velocity is 1989 fps most petals broke off--but penetration increased a substantial amount.

I did some test on buffalo in the 50 B&M with the 426 gr version of this bullet. At 40 yds I think the bullet lost two petals at 2250 fps muzzle velocity and penetrated 29 inches. Some test work on another buffalo at 10 ft all the petals broke off completely and the remaining slug exited the buffalo, I found it in the dirt.

Just last week I tested the 470 version in an extremely dense mix (on purpose 50% of my normal mix was catalogs) Normally 25%. In this very dense mix at 2400+ fps the petals broke off and total penetration was 24 inches--dead straight!

So while it has taken me a long time to come around I do believe that breaking off might be a good thing, and transfer trauma and energy better.

Michael

Wow... great stuff. Yes with those petals off you have a great flat nose solid. Love the super short.

While the above photos are examples, and not from the 500 MDM, it shows the difference in the petals breaking and not breaking, in penetration.

Penetration is everything! Now to "correlate" from tests to the field on animal flesh with expanding bullets I will get double the penetration on animal flesh + or minus variables such as bone this that or the other, but on average double. If I get 14 inches in the test medium I get 28 inches in animal flesh under normal circumstances "on Average".

This appears to be correct on the bullets that shed the petals during penetration also, but field data is short on that with only a few field experiences being recorded, 8-10 or so at this time.

Now think about this. If the petals stay on and penetration is shorter of course then the bullet will stop at a point inside the animal let's say. At a higher impact velocity where the bullet is under stress but continues to penetrate beyond where the same bullet would penetrate without loosing the petals, then we have incurred damage beyond the point of where the slower bullet stops, and possibly exit the animal leaving a second hole that air can leak in, and other internal "things" can leak out. Thus causing more damage and trauma by inflicting damage to areas that the other bullet would not get to!

So this is one of the points that leads me to believe that the petals breaking off is not a bad thing??

Michael

The newest addition to the 500 MDM family.

Michael,

How does this cartridge compare to the 505 Gibbs, besides the fact that the Gibbs needs a longer action and larger bolt face? I am liking this cartridge and the last rifle you posted is quite sharp. I have a PH action coming that I am going to build a Gibbs on.

Woody

Woody

Well obviously the 500 MDM is my choice, but I might be a bit prejudiced! I could be wrong about this, but I believe this is the largest cartridge one can fit in a Winchester M70! Being a die hard Winchester M70 fan this has great appeal to me. I have some other rifles, ruger and what have you, but I don't take them out much anymore. I am not sure how this cartridge would work in other bolt guns, I am sure it could be adapted to others, but my only experience (by choice) is with the Winchesters.

Like any cartridge the 500 MDM is only as good as the platform you put it on, and the bullets that are available for it. Well I have the platform I like so I have that sorted out. I have also sorted out good and proper bullets in .500 caliber for these guns. Remember, this is not .510 it is true .500 caliber. So we worked very hard over the last few years getting good bullets that will work with this cartridge. When it comes to the solids the 550 gr is as good as it gets. Now one can download the 500 MDM and use the available .500 caliber bullets with ease, I have been doing so. But for the big stuff it is a simple matter to have David Fricke kick some out of the CNC machines. In fact I have an order in right now for 1500 bullets from David. The cost is not much more than premium bullets available for the 505 or various 510s. If any at all.

I think I am getting big performance on a reasonable size platform. My rifles have 21 inch barrels and come in at 8.5 lbs. In fact the stainless gun come in at 8.25. I think the myrtle stock is a tad heavier. I can run a 550 gr Solid at 2200 fps, 510 Solid at 2300 fps-470 HP at 2400 fps and a 426 HP at 2500 fps, these are some of the CNC bullets and they are superb in performance and accuracy. For giggles I can run the 325 Barnes X at 2700 fps, could probably do more but to what point? I also ran the 500 Hornady at 2375 fps but I think that is over running that bullet and dropped it back to 2100 fps.

I have a 510 Wells on a big ruger rifle and while it is nice, shoots great all that, it weighs 11 lbs and has a 24 inch tube on it. No way I am toting that around in the field! My 500 MDMs are even easier to carry than my 24 inch Winchesters in 458 Lott and various other big bores that are now retired! Recoil is not bad, in fact I am having no issues at all doing a lot of the test work with a 1.5X5 Leupold.

For me it stacks up very much in favor of the 500 MDM over any of the various 510s or 505. Smaller, shorter, platform and have superb bullets established and ready to go. Common brass is 375 RUM and cheap, or at least cheaper than 505 brass. Headstamped brass is of course available too. Dies from Hornady available and reasonable priced. Not much of a downside for me.

I am going to give the 500 MDM a good workout in Australia in September on buffalo with all the various bullets. I have used all the bullets in the field in the 50 B&M, but there are a couple of designs I am anxious to see work at the higher velocities the 500 MDM can produce.

Thanks, very glad you like the new stainless gun. I shot some yesterday and it does very well with the irons.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks for the info, I may just rethink the 505 in the larger PH action. I also like the M70 platform and trim rifles, so the idea of a "fifty" cal that weighs in at a lot less is appealing. I will need to go and read all of your posts regarding your cartridges so I have a complete understanding of them. They do sound interesting. They sure have Boomie in a stir.

Woody

Woody

PM sent with more details.

Thanks
Michael