Here in Ohio we can only use 357 or larger straight wall, slight taper is ok. My question how much work would it be to make a tapered case for a .357/8 bullet using either a 30-30 or a 375 win full length case and having a straight neck of at least .320. This would be used in an Encore single shot pistol. Taper would only .035 or .040 or so. Has this been done?

Thanks
Rad

356, larger case, but near enough not to matter...

i have several boxes of brass, if you need some

There are lots of people trying out many different recipes...and there are several cartridges that fit the length and bullet diameter requirement already chambered in the T/C that will work very well.

Do some searching, there is already a thread covering the same subject.

Basically all you need to do is have a reamer and set of dies made to your specs...~0.041" taper, but it WOULD be an "almost" straight walled case...I don't know all the OHIO specs as to what they mean by "taper". Both QL and Load from a Disk have cartridge design programs that make designing your dream cartridge very easy.

Luck

A 357 maximum with a nominal rifle bullet throat chamber could be a sweet deal. 2.425" OAL could be potent with 180, 200 and 220 grain 35 Remington bullets without all the wildcat fuss.

I have a Encore barrel in 357 max made by T/C and the accuracy sucks. If we could use a cartridge with a shoulder the problem would be solved quickly. I would prefer the 30-30 or 375 win case so as to not get a lot of taper. With the 356 you would be adding about another .050 taper to it. I would think it would be close to 357 herrett.

Rad

What twist can you get a 35 barrel in?
Maybe start with a stock 357 maximum barrel and rechamber.

38-55 as a donor?

You are talking about something like a 32-40 necked up to 35. The body would be a straight taper with a long neck.

Is there a reason why you couldn't just use a 375 Winchester?
I know they work really well out of a Contender.

Cheers, John

A straight neck up of a 30-30 will just be a ghost shoulder of about ten thou per side. Are they that picky as to an almost non existent shallow shoulder? Maybe turn the 15 degree mini shoulder into a 7 degree shoulder to look like more taper and that would be indistinguishable. Just a simple neck up and fireform is optional.

The 303 Brit has the same shoulder diameter as the 30-30 but larger case capacity by having a larger case head and longer but can be loaded to a higher pressure. A 35-303 could be good. Apparently an old wildcat on old smle rifles
http://tecmagex.com/en/ch4d-di...-35-303-british.html

They spell out in their laws that no shoulder on the case but a slight taper is ok. The reason for the 357 is so I can rechamber mt 357 max barrel that will not group, typical T/C production according to Bellm. I made a drawing but it isn't showing up very good when I try to load it into the computer.

Rad

I'd call a 7 degree ten thou per side post neck taper "slight" taper

HerrMesser; If it has a rim it dose not need a shoulder. 32-40 opened up or a 38-55 necked down.

I have done a little checking and have found that what I want is within a few hairs of being a 35-40 Maynard. Cartridges of the World say it can be made from a 38-55 case. If I seen it right the base is about .015 or .020 smaller. Reamers and dies are available for the Maynard.

Rad

Brass will be a pain
Is it worth it?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Brass will be a pain
Is it worth it?

Have you not made others just for the fun of or maybe practicality?
This will be worth it to me. Hopefully I can get some decent accuracy at 100 yds. I will probably just go with my first idea of modifying the 30-30 case. Get custom dies and reamer.

Rad

Let me ask a question. Putting together a couple of your statements, it seems the problem is the accuracy of the Maximum barrel, and you attribute it to the work by TC. You state that if you could have a slight shoulder, you could solve the problem. Is your goal here to find a round that can headspace on a slight shoulder? If not, and the barrel won't shoot, I don't see much improvement ahead with a rechambered barrel.

If your goal is to find a legal "straight" cartridge with enough ghost shoulder to headspace, that certainly won't either. No shoulder mild enough to qualify will headspace (read all the 400 Whelen articles over the last 50 years. If the chamber is cut with so much headspace that the fit is sloppy, I would try fireforming with long seated bullets, and then partial resizing.

One thing I have always found interesting is that the Ohio regs only call for "straight sided" cases. No mention is made of taper in the regs, just no shoulder, technically.

If you do a conversion, take a look at the 9.3x72 (not the 9.3x74). It is very close to the base size of a 30-30, with a smaller rim. Cases are available. It is a lot longer with (maybe) more powder capacity, and has no shoulder. It actually was available in a .364 version long ago. I have heard that you can simple run the mouth into a 357 die and end up with about what you want.

Art
I was in the regs a while back and it stated straight wall cases, slight taper ok, but I was just now looking at them and this is what it says now,

"Gun Season and Youth Deer Gun Season:

10-gauge or smaller shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel (rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition); or muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger; or handgun with 5-inch minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger, or longbow, crossbow (draw weight limitations same as for Archery Season). Shotguns cannot be capable of holding more than three shells."

I have no intentions of trying to get a minimal shoulder as I plan on using a rimmed cartridge. I shoulder would make it illegal.

As of today I have decided to use the 356 win case and get custom full length die made. I can use the 356 win seating die. I think that case will hold up better to higher pressures.

I want to thank all for their input and when I get it all together I will post some pics.

Rad

If you want to play with the round before popping for a custom sizing die (expensive), run the case into a 38/357 die the proper distance. I have done this sort of thing on straight and tapered cases before(once on 45 RCBS Basic with 45/70 dies) with good luck. I sometimes never get the custom dies. If the new cases work out, pick up a used 356 die, cut, grind or ream it to below the shoulder area and use it for full length/base sizing.

[Art S. : nothing wrong with a 400 Whelen. What is wrong is the 400/30-06. There is about 0.020" difference at the shoulder between the two. 400 Whelen case are formed from unshouldered basic 30-06 cases. PS: A staight walled case has same dia at mouth and above rim. For a 30-30 case to be stright walled it would need to uses a .399" bullet.

Yep, a lot of lazy gunsmiths just about ruined the 400 Whelen. When done properly it has no headspace problems.

Cheers, John

If you do this mod, you'll need a reamer. Make sure the pilot diameter is right for your bore. When I ordered a reamer from Dave Manson to take my Contender 38 Special bbl out to Max length, we found out together that the SAAMI dims for a .357 Max reamer still specify .346 pilot diameter. Using that in a barrel with a .350 bore would explain a lot about why T/C .357 barrels won't shoot. Their chambers just have to be off center, as well as having no throat.

Dave very kindly made my reamer with a separate pilot, and sent me a .3595 bushing,l as well as grinding a proper throat on it, in lieu of the forcing cone that SAAMI calls for. And charged me less than Mike B charges for a rechamber.

I think I might have come up with a solution for the problem even if he does not adopt this one. A 220 swift has enough taper that carried forward would give an unrecognizable 5 thou shoulder when loaded and fired cases virtually zip. Headspace on the mini rim or extractor.
Could be a good barrel swap on a savage for deer season

If anyone has the ability and desire it would be interesting to have a necked up 220 swift to 358 to have a case to measure the neck and shoulder junction. I figure this case could easily duplicate the 35 Remington since the 220 is 48 grains capacity so necked up it should be right about the capacity of the 35 Rem at 51 grains capacity which is a boon for load development purposes but a legal straight walled case if the taper is carried forward to the end.

Sell your barrel and keep the dies. Should get $150
Buy a custom barrel in 357 Max from your favorite smith.
By not using a new wildcat cartridge you will save a couple hundred on dies, another hundred and a half on a reamer. Add labor charges and you are money ahead.
With the Max there is no question the game warden will be happy.

Mark

I've been reading this thread and wondering why you don't go with a long throated .375 Win.and use 225 to 250 grain psp bullets in an adequately twist barrel.What am I missing here? There is nothing Magic about 35 roger

I at first thought about going with the 375 win but I did not want to buy another barrel at this time from T/C and possibly have not shoot very good. The 375 win is a custom shop barrel. I already have the 357 max barrel is why I want to do this project. If we could have any kind of shoulder on the case I would go with 357 herrett. If there is even a hint of a shoulder on the cartridge I can get cited for it.

Rad

The 220 can be made without a shoulder but a tiny neck when fireformed with original taper if my calculations are correct but a dummy would need to be made to verify.

I have a 94 Winchester that was originally a 32 special that PO Ackley rebored to 35 and chambered it for 35-30. Nice little round and is about like a 35 Remington. There is almost no shoulder on this case.

quote:

Yep, a lot of lazy gunsmiths just about ruined the 400 Whelen. When done properly it has no headspace problems.

+1

http://www.ammo-one.com/400360NEWR.html
WR might have solved this 110 years ago. Maybe keep the taper going to eliminate the mini shoulder.

Have you looked at the old 357 Herrett? It's a shortened 30-30 case opened to 35 cal. I had and used one for years. It's quite potent on large game.

Geoff

The only problem with the Herrett is the shoulder on it. We can only use straight wall type pistol calibers. Slight taper is ok.

One of the things I am wondering about is making a drawing to send to get a forming die. SAAMI spec for the 356 win neck is .388 and the prints I have seen for the herrett show the neck at .380 and .379 for the 357 max. I have some 356 brass and they mic .380.

Rad

Search your collection of Handloader magazines and look for Ken Waters 35-30 wildcat.

Rich

I don't have any Handloader magazines.

I did find this when I googled Ken Waters 35-30 wildcat.

"Profiled in the "Wildcat Cartridge" column article from Handloader #139 in May/June 1989. Want a scan?"

But if it has any kind of a shoulder it won't work for what I need.

Rad

It seems the 25-35 brass is readily available. Same as the 30-30 case. Necking up to 35 should be easy and no shoulder. You could rebore a new 25-35 Winchester. It would be a 35-35. Would have a long neck but forming would be easy. Pistol bullets plenty fast and 35 rem bullets at decent velocity.

The Bellm thing about poor accuracy being a usual T/C problem is pretty much baloney coming from someone who wants to sell you various fixes. If I had your 357 Maximum barrel I would probably be trying different bullets and powders to find something that worked.

Ohio allows straight walled cases shooting projectiles of .357 caliber or larger. The strait taper verbage they now have is probably in deferance to the idiots in Delaware that don't seem to have a clue about case design. Any shoulder, even a shallow 357 Herrett shoulder, is verboten in Ohio.

There are of course a bunch of other choices such as 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 460 S&W, 45-70 Gov., 500 S&W, etc. The 357 Maximum barrels I've seen for sale on various forums seem to be snapped up fairly quickly so if you don't like yours, sell it and get something you like.

boom stick
I didn't think about the 25-35. The 356 win will give a little bit more room for powder.

Grumulkin
I have tried various powders and bullets and cannot get a less than a 6" group at 100 yds. I could do a lot better than that with my DW. I really want something that will give my at least a 200 yd range. I had considered the 375 win but decided to rechamber the max barrel. I still have a DW to use for shooting 357 max.

Rad