On another thread we started talking about necking up the .240 weatherby. It would be a scaled down copy of the .470 Capstick.


Measurements vary a lot from drawings to drawings.
My .240 Wea'by meassures .449 in front of the belt.
Both my .416 Taylor and Remington meassures .436 on the neck on loaded rounds, while both my .404Jeffery and 10,5x68 meassures .446 on the neck on loaded rounds. My .425 WR meassures .465, but it could be done, since my .444 Marlin meassures .449. On my .240 W'by that would be completely stright.

I think I would stop at .416 and make a ghost shoulder, to maximize taper. Donnelly's book gives the .240 a case capasity of 63,8, whilst the 6mm06 has a capasity off 64,82. It will have a bit smaller capsity than the .416-06, but should it not duplicate the loadings off the .411 Hawk?
A bit smaller capasity, but larger for caliber bullets?

The thing is that it would be easy to make as a factory round, since they would not need to worry about the shoulder, an issue if they should make the .416-06.

For once a positive reason for the belt! I think you are correct, it would work good in a 375 too.

as i have said before...belts and rims are for carts that dont have shoulders

soooo 350's @ 2200?

the 411 would be more versatile and more like the capstick with the pistol bullets kinda like the 470 can use pistol bullets for plinking and deer and for more range. great idea!

411 capstick!

.....Basically a belted 400 Brown Whelan....with a Rem Titanium 700 action and a titanium barrel or 24 " length it should do 2150 with a 400 gr bullet and there by be a world class knocking around in DG country rifle..... Hopefully a 300 gr GS Custom or Barnes X @ 2500 fps .....

Don't mean to pee on your parade but that's not near enough taper for that length of case. Especially for the critters it would be used to pursue.

Bent,

you can find a .411cal version of your idea here:405 for bolt actions

Heiner

quote:

you can find a .411cal version of your idea here:405 for bolt actions

Interesting link.

Using his dimensions the .411-240 would have a taper of .0076"/inch vs the 458 Lott that has .012"/inch or about 63% less taper

can someone neck one up and post a pic???

also if you stick to 411 pistol bullets you can put it in a short action...turn a 308 into a real stomper

Jupp, there it was! And for the record - never did I think it was a new idea - I've been in this game to long!


Remember, with a ghost shoulder it tapers from belt to neck, not to case-mouth.

Dang, its a qutie.

quote:

Posted 22 March 2007 19:34 Hide Post
For once a positive reason for the belt! I think you are correct, it would work good in a 375 too.

It already has been a 375, the very first belted case, the 400/375 Nitro.
I have the reamer and just need to finish a few things on mine and I can let you know what it does with modern loads.

quote:

Remember, with a ghost shoulder it tapers from belt to neck, not to case-mouth

With out doing the numbers I would think if you set the neck to egual the bullet bottom you might get the taper closer to somethng like the Lott's.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Remember, with a ghost shoulder it tapers from belt to neck, not to case-mouth

With out doing the numbers I would think if you set the neck to egual the bullet bottom you might get the taper closer to somethng like the Lott's.

And that should be sufficiently!

How would a guy go about doing a project like this? ie reamer, loading dies, etc.

The project sounds very interesting.

Rojelio

quote:

How would a guy go about doing a project like this? ie reamer, loading dies, etc

Simply draw it up have a custom reamer made. Then neck up the brass and fireform. Or since it has the belt form without bullets. The take fired cases to have dies made. Hornady for example will make them for around $135.

I would make up some dummies, to see how th ebrass streches and how thin it will be in the neck-area, before drawings are made.

quote:

I would make up some dummies, to see how th ebrass streches and how thin it will be in the neck-area, before drawings are made.

What would you view as to thin? I've take 280 brass to 416 without issue. Never have tried. Don't have 240 wonder if taking 243 up to 411 would give the same answer.

shooting these 300 grain 40 cent bullets in a rebarreled 308 with a 3" magazine coal short action would be a fun rig...lions tigers and bears...oh my!

I gotta have one!

Rojelio

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I would make up some dummies, to see how th ebrass streches and how thin it will be in the neck-area, before drawings are made.

What would you view as to thin? I've take 280 brass to 416 without issue. Never have tried. Don't have 240 wonder if taking 243 up to 411 would give the same answer.

No, you got me wrong. Sorry about my english. I was thinking that I would meassure the diameter of the neck with a bullet inserted, for a measurement to put on the drawing, in stead of taking a measurement from an alredy existing .416 cartridge, wich probably have a thicker neck. Maybe not necessary, just a thought.

quote:

No, you got me wrong. Sorry about my english.

There is nothng at all wrong with your English. My old brain just misread it. Just looked seems the 240 is called .272 and the 243 is .276. So guess to really know it would be best to use 240.

What would be the best way to form the brass? Open it up in stages or just blow it out in an existing chamber with a wad instead of a bullet.

It seems like a long way to go from 6mm to .411.
I've formed 6.5-06 brass from 25-06 and 270 and 40-65 out of 45-70. This would be much different.

I would hate to lose much of that expensive Weatherby brass to splits. I guess if it was annealed properly it would survive.

Rojelio

The problem for me is, you will have to buy the waaaaaaay "over priced" 240 brass that really don't last as long as it should. I really hate that!!

Yes i have a 240 Wby. and by far the worst part is the brass!!

DM

quote:

It seems like a long way to go from 6mm to .411

I've taken 284 to 416 in stages. In this case I would try to blow it out with COW. But to me this would be for looks only.

Take an 06 case. Blow it out and chamber in 411. More capacity and cheaper brass. The 411 Hawke works fine the 400 Whelen (with a .458 shoulder) worked fine. My 416Pdk with a .458 shoulder and a 416 bullet headspaces fine.

I read the thread title, and I think...morons with too much time on their hands. Then I get to thinking a bit, and it would be one of the few cartridges that need a belt... and a very sensible big bore for NA hunting. And that might be the problem...too common sense an idea to fly. Using the 30-06 makes more sense, but it lacks that certain, Je nais se qua... that in this case, a belt does add to it.
Somebody build one of these things...

Rich
DRSS

Yea, Rich, that is how I reacted to my idea myself.

The ONLY reason this one should be better than the .416-06 is on a factory-made cartridge. As a wildcat, the .416-06 with a .458 shoulder would give more case capasity, but never have enough shoulder for a factory loading.

I would think a 380 Northfork would do 2150f/s, and that would be exelent medicine at short ranges as a guidegun. With a drob-box magazine, 6/7 down and one in the chamber in a fairly light rifle, just like the Hawk and Whelen - but in a factory loading.

.416 Stright Belted. Oh yea.

quote:

Originally posted by Rojelio:
What would be the best way to form the brass? Open it up in stages or just blow it out in an existing chamber with a wad instead of a bullet.

I'd blow it out in the chamber.

quote:

but it lacks that certain, Je nais se qua...

Easy for you to say.

Bent, I've seen that you made reference several time to the .458 shoulder not being enough in "factory loading". Just curious why you see it acceptable for custom/handloading but not factory. Simply a matter of lower accuracy of dimension in factory vs custom??

Ramrod: Because factory loadings are not fireformed, wich I pressume is necessary with the Hawk/Whelen for axeptable headspace. The 10.75X68 have the smallest shoulder on any factory round, and I expect larger than the Hawk/Whelen. But I might be wrong??

quote:

Ramrod: Because factory loadings are not fireformed, wich I pressume is necessary with the Hawk/Whelen for axeptable headspace.

OK you lost me. But that is easy to do. YOu are not talking about factory loaded ammo just factory cases? YOu would still need to fireform the 240 would you not? Take cylinder 06 brass and run it through a sizer and trim no fireforming needed for the Whelen or Hawke.

Anyway since it is raining. I took a new ww 243 case measured external neck size and then took it all the way to 375(couldn't find my 416 expander ) Below is the bullet dia then outside neck and the difference for each step
.243---.274---.031
.257---.286---.029
.277---.306---.029
.284---.313---.029
.308---.337---.028
.338---.365---.027
.375---.400---.025

Sorry I couldn't get to 416. But if I assume that the diff is .024 added to the .411 that gives me a neck ID of .435" The 416 Taylor list .439. So I feel comfortable drawing the case with a neck OD of .435" I would then decided the normal bullet size and shape seated to fit a 3.4" magazine and run the neck to the base of that bullet. You would not gain much usuable net capacity with a shorter neck and the longer meck increase your body taper.

I used that many steps to both gain a trind and I was to lazy to swap out to tapered expanders so I just used the normal expander for each step. I see no problem getting a 240 case to .411. Makes sense it started as a cylinder anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Ramrod: Because factory loadings are not fireformed, wich I pressume is necessary with the Hawk/Whelen for axeptable headspace.

OK you lost me. But that is easy to do. YOu are not talking about factory loaded ammo just factory cases? YOu would still need to fireform the 240 would you not? Take cylinder 06 brass and run it through a sizer and trim no fireforming needed for the Whelen or Hawke.

Hehe, yea well, I guess I was a couple of steps ahead, without explaining. I was talking about this as a factory round, with factory made brass. Factory made brass is not fireformed, thus having a smaller shoulder from the box than after fired in the chamber, but it MUST be able to headsoace on an unfired case. Look at a .35 Whelen before and after fiering, the shoulder is much more distinct after having been fired once.

And as a factory round, it is the only reason to hazzle with this belt instead of using the '06 case.

A good idea for a factory round, for a wilcat it is just a lot of work for less gain.

Comprende?

quote:

Look at a .35 Whelen before and after fiering, the shoulder is much more distinct after having been fired once.

I would be curious to see if the design had a sharp shoulder if it would make that much difference. We have run AHR cylinder brass into my 416 die and the shoulder it formed enough to load and shoot.

Since it is till raining. Drew this up. Took the 240Wby measurements from Steves. Then blew the neck up .435(per my earlier post) and assumed a max OAL of 3.38". With the 300gr bullets being only around 1" long I set the neck at .3" with the 300 set at the base of the neck the oal was 3.176. If you use a 350 which is around 1.25" then at 3.38" the bullet would be a little below the neck. So maybe set the neck around .37" that wouldn't have much inpact on the short bullet, make the base even with the base of the long bullet and increase the taper of the case.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

I would be curious to see if the design had a sharp shoulder if it would make that much difference. We have run AHR cylinder brass into my 416 die and the shoulder it formed enough to load and shoot.

OK, then I am wrong, and this is a really bad idea.

Then the original .400 Whelen with the .458 shoulder is superior in any way.

Oh well, just as good, I really am busy enough as it is!

bent...dont give up so easily...

2150 is a great old school velocity the 423 bullets...

you already have two 423 carts so why not another...

it will have 10 thou body taper
and 423 cannot be done on the 06 brass!

404 capstick!!!



it will mushroom perfectly at an impact velocity of 2000
and above.

it will be the biggest bore you could do on an unrebated 06 boltface and a standard action

the 411 for more versatility but 404 bullets @ 2150 cant be disputed...

quote:

OK, then I am wrong, and this is a really bad idea

Sure not saying you are wrong. My case had a 40deg the whelen doesn't. Any number of thigs could make the difference.

Hey Boom see new drawing below.

thanks ramrod340...

sooooooo it is possible to do a 404 capstick...am i wrong???

sooo load the bullet out .18" longer. if loaded out to the max coal (which is easy to do with the north forks) it should be close to the performance of the 10.75x68 without any boltface work.

ramrod...we can move that red line of useful space out to 2.08

now can someone expand a case to .423 and take a picture for us???

now this would be something new...

anyone got a 240 wby they want to turn into a 423 bruiser? hey that yould be a good name crusher?

quote:

ramrod...we can move that red line of useful space out to 2.08

I'd be happy to move it. What OAL and what bullet length?

well we could do a max oal of 3.34" and the m70 max of 3.6"!

if you had a m70 you would be in good shape for max oal but for this we will ass u me the max being 3.34"

the north fork 380 gr 423 bullet is 1.425" long

Must have been asleep on the first drawing. Here it is with a 1.425" bullet set with OAL of 3.34 and 3.6.

thanks...

now all we need is a dummy round for the pin up centerfold and someone who has the desire and ability to make one...anyone...

a cast bulet might be good for economy and for short bullets... the beartooth bullets http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm 404 is 1.173 in length .5" from nose to crimp and a 1.7" meplat...gaschecked you can buy them 50 for 15 bucks...