Since about 1957 one of my pet things to do was cartridge designing and wildcating. Some of the wildcats I have made were the 6mmX.270 IMP, 7X41,7.62X41,9X41, .375X41, 8mmX.425X2.5" Westly Richards IMP, and .358X 404IMP.I thought I was the originater of the 6.5 X.284 but found out latter in life someone did it before me but the one I built was something special. More than not the wildcat design project started out with some what ifs, was put on paper,modified after some thought and than filed to posterity.

I thought perhaps that we could share a little fun project and at the end have some sort of mature discussion.

Here's the deal.A hypothetical indivdual approached me at the shooting range and after all the Hi how are yous he says he understands that I am a widcater and he'd like me to design a one of a kind cartridge for him and see that the rifle gets built.

The rifle must have a pencil thin barrel 20" long and weigh no more then 6 lbs. without the scope and have absolutly a minimum of recoil without a muzzle brake. Further the cartridge should be designed so that medium weight none premium bullets will adequately handle the largest of mule deer out to 300 yards if necessary. Also if used with heavy for caliber none premium bullets it will handle 400lb. black bear and elk with well placed bullets out to 100 yds. or closer.

The cartridge design must facilitate smooth feeding, ease of forming and minimum die extraction force. The parent cases must be ""abundantly available"". When reloading the heaviest bullets they must not protrude into the powder room [ shoulder to neck junction ].

It would be nice for those that participate present a , "why I'm doing it this way" explanation feature by feature. roger

what i envision is necking up 25 remington or necking down 30 remington to 6.5

it would feed great with that shoulder angle...the long neck fits the requirement the brass i dont know but it could be light in weight and recoil and could zap deer to 300 yards...load long with 160's for a black bear heartburn.

jamison is making the 25 rem 20 for $10

it has the same casehead as the 30-30 so you could make a rimmed version for cheap cheap cheap brass

you could also continue the 23 degree shoulder to make a long neck 260 rem version

how about cross breeding the 6.5x68 schuler and the 6.5-284???

it would feed great, have good capacity in a short action and a long neck.

if you use the 6.5x68 schuler reamer to a 2" length and use a separate throat neck reamer...you would get a better feeding longer neck 6.5x284...i know...not worth it but you would save on a custom reamer...if you do a 2.17 length you would have a long neck. approx .45"

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/remington_0303/

well i did some more research on this and it turns out the new military round the 6.8 spc is almost what i described...

it is based on the 30 rem case but shorter...

so if the military is using a smaller version why not make a longer 6.5 version...look at the results they are getting!!! if they can do 115's @ 2800 then you can guess what this would do. granted they are using a 24" barrel



l to r 30 rem, 6.8 spc, 308 and 223

the time for the 6.5 rem has arived! it should be real light recoiling with 120's and 140's

http://www.65grendel.com/graphics/grendelballistics.pdf

it should outdo the 6.5 grendel...use the load data as a starting place since it will have about 15% more capacity

OK Boom Stick. Nice responses. Let see if we can get others to join us in this quest. roger

7x39, no other changes, normal primed, large rifle cases,

take a 204 ruger, weight relieve it, carbon fiber stock, nanoweight barrel, counterbore last 1.5" of the barrel to .308, and use a 10 twist, with 140bt accubonds.


of course, you could just buy a model 7 in 708, CF stock, and go hunting

6.8 spc

also a longer neck version of the mannlicher schoenauer...

but the 6.5 rem is in the lead

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4222.htm
6mm us navy or necked up to 6.5???



or make a kind of hybrid using 243 webymag brass to make a 6mm version of the 300 h+h

use the 243 wby brass, the 6mm navy reamer...

or like i said, a 6.5 version

the dimensions of the casehead of the navy and the case in front of the belt are virtualy identicle...

avaliable brass reamers and dies to modify standard size rim/bolt face (243 wby brass)

long neck, should be low recoil and would feed pretty slick
http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1895-lee.shtml

after 112 years its time to breathe new life into this cart...





or for a non belted version use 220 swift cases and 6mm lee navy dies...DAMN i am GOOD!!!!!!!!!

or make the 6.5 version...yada yada yada...my brilliance bores me

I really figured more guys would take a turn at bat with this one. Oh well. roger

About 15-16 years ago I got the wildcat bug, made up about half a dozen.
223 Valkyrie aka 22-284
6MMedusa, 9,3x64 Brennecke blow out and neck to 6mm, a 2.5" long 6-284
257 Banshee blown-out, sharp shouldered necked down 6.5x68Schuler
The best, a 22-378Wbee with a 35-degree shoulder like Ackley might have done.
Rolled it across the table at the 1995 SHOT Show sitting with Bob Forker who did one in 1964...I thought he was going to swallow his dentures! I still got those reamers...don't tempt me!
Now, I am a much more mature individual, it's things like a 550 and a 475 Gibbs along with the 510 KX (510 Wells minus the irritating belt) that keep me up at night.

Rich
DRSS

bartsche,
Just spotted this posting. Sorry but I'm not a fan of the 6.5's. To me the 270Redding (270/308 or 308/27 in the old country ) seems spot on. Bet your hypothetical mate can find a take-off 270Win barrel for shortening/rechambering, a Rem700 receiver to fit it to with a cheap synthetic stock. Brass is cheap, projectiles available from varmints to large game with the latter not being ridiculously long like the .264" 160gr. A 90gr for the varmints, 130gr spitzer for some reach and a 150gr RN for the bigger stuff.
Cheers...
Con
PS: Custom dies are a bugger ... I reckon a 22Hornet FL die will do a passable job at neck sizing and a set of 7/08 dies will handle sizing the case body and seating a projectile

Nice touch ,Con.

bartsche,
I just hope at your tender age I've been able to play with half the wildcats you have!! It's a sickness I tell you!! One day you'll have to share the x41 story and what you found playing with them.

Another nice thing about the 270/308 for the above hypothetical is that the 6.8SPC has spawned some nice lighter projectiles in the 115gr range. Damn thing sounds so practical ...
Cheers...
Con

so maybe a long neck 6.8 spc...

use the spc reamer and a separate 270 neck and throat reamer





or just neck up 25 rem brass! that would give over .4" neck!

p.s. a 338-30 rem might be interesting...

7X57 up to .30 or down to .270.

.323 PH

.404 shortenedalittlebit and necked down to 8mm, given an different shoulder , and the barrel can take 8mm bullets up t o the 250 grain Woodleigh.

Or the same brass with an .310 WR bullet or 333 Jeffrey bullet..

don't seem to be a need here what you are describing sound like a 250 savage

I think jeffeosso hit the nail on the head in one of his passing comments. A Remington Model 7 chambered in 7mm-08 would fill the bill nicely. Although I can think of a more ideal coyote cartridge, as well as something better suited for elk, the little 7mm-08 will suffice in both cases and work ideally for everything in-between. Since you're talking about a wildcat, you might consider making it an Ackley Improved. Although not really a wildcat, my 7-08AI has a lightweight 22" barrel, and it would be quite handy with a 20" barrel without giving up too much.

Bartshe,


The new 6,5x47 with the small primer for higher preassures is hard to beat.

Regular .22-250 brass could be used at lower preassures.

It is hard to combine low cost and eccentric cartriges.....

it's been done already...the 25BR.

Rich
DRSS

I chose 7mm bore cause of larger array of bullets.
I dont see as many "non premium" ballistically efficient hunting bullets in 6.5mm bore that I would like to use on game.
Why muck around with two or more bullet weights? I feel the simple answer for 300yd mulies & 100yd BB/Elk is:
One std.catridge/One bullet/One MV, ...ie: 7x57-154interlock2600fps.set in M70sa(3.08"box)kevlar stock, thin .525@20"tube.
Bullet will sit nicely at base of neck with good balanced and asthetically appealing oal.
Still Plentynough brass to choose, 6mmRem,257Rob,7x57, from a variety of makers...is that kind of brass choice/sources abundant enough?

OK Thanks roger

270/308 seem to me to best fit the situation.

270/284 if more customer wants more velocity.
270/7.62x39 if less.

6.5x39 a non improved 6.5 Grendel. Better for hunting.
For a brush gun a 18.5" barreled 475-300WSM. You don't have to stoke the fire to get it to kill!

I like these ideas for moderate ranges. With the bullet selection these days, folks are killing bigger things with smaller bores.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
OK Thanks roger

What are you rolling your eyes for, gram?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
OK Thanks roger

What are you rolling your eyes for, gram?

When first posted hopefully the responses would include each persons thought process on how they intened to meet all the perameters such as were outlined in the original post.

It was intened to be a study in individual conceptual approach. Although some of that was there it fell way short of what was anticipated. No fault really; interest and expression are just on a different level and that is why those baby blues are rolling. roger

I'll do a better job on my post in a bit. I wasn't aware of being graded.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


The cartridge design must facilitate smooth feeding, ease of forming and minimum die extraction force. The parent cases must be ""abundantly available"". When reloading the heaviest bullets they must not protrude into the powder room [ shoulder to neck junction ].

It would be nice for those that participate present a , "why I'm doing it this way" explanation feature by feature. roger

OK, again I think the .22-250 is to be used. Cheap brass, easy feeding with its ample body taper and not to sharp shoulder. Opened up to 6,5, 140 grainers could be set to the base of neck and still have room in a short 700.
A 140 grs Swift A-frame should be able to reach 2800 fps, a 140 grs 2600 fps.
Neck would only be about .300, but I really do not see why one should use as heavy as 160 g bullets, when a premium 140 will do any job better.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
7x39, no other changes, normal primed, large rifle cases,

take a 204 ruger, weight relieve it, carbon fiber stock, nanoweight barrel, counterbore last 1.5" of the barrel to .308, and use a 10 twist, with 140bt accubonds.

el jeffe, please indulge my stupidity. Why have the bore oversized for 1.5"?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:



OK, again I think the .22-250 is to be used. Cheap brass, easy feeding with its ample body taper and not to sharp shoulder. Opened up to 6,5, 140 grainers could be set to the base of neck and still have room in a short 700.
A 140 grs Swift A-frame should be able to reach 2800 fps, a 140 grs 2600 fps.
Neck would only be about .300, but I really do not see why one should use as heavy as 160 g bullets, when a premium 140 will do any job better.

Thanks ,Bent. That's just what I had in mind. I believe, however, The 250-3000 case would be easier on neck metal strech. Cases are fairly easy to come by as that is one of the cartridges I shoot.

Your conceipt is close to what I came up with. It is totally adequate I believe and is somewhat lower on the recoil.Nice touch, Thanks again for your participation. roger

figure a .4" neck
the 30-220 swift will have a long neck, 308 win power cheap brass and bullets...(i like the idea of using 30-30 bullets) mild to moderate recoil...you could load it to the wimpiest 30-30 power if you chose. you could zap deer with 100 grain cast bullets if it struck yer fancy...

it will also work on a short action.

it will work with bullets 8mm 7mm 270, 6.5, 6mm

Used Remington 700, douglas cromoly barrel Bell and Carlson carbalite stock, or get your hands on a used Banser. Krylon for blueing and final finish, if cost is a concern. If money is not too much problem substitute Remington 7 or a 700 Titanium (Optional), premium S/S barrel, Banser High Tec or Mcmillian with edge fill and cericoate all the metal (it is a hunting gun). Either way Nikon 2-7 Pro-staff, hard to find more scope for the money on a rig of this type.

Hold a 7-08 reamer back .125. Ream neck to desired length, cut the throat on the generous side, Alla Weby. More capacity than a 6-250AI, should get a 120-140 moving over 2500fps 160s at 2200. Just guessing, no quick load. At those speeds Remington Core-lokt bullets should perfom as well as a partition and be way cheaper to shoot alot.

Standard dies could be modified. Enough case taper to feed really well, enough neck to grip long bullets and keep it out of the powder. Brass is everywhere, 260,7-08, 308 or 243 could be used, in every grade from onec fired military to Norma and Laupa.

I was orginally thinking just neck up a 250Savage, but you seemed to lean towards long necks. I think this would give you more powder room in the body also.

Boomie give it a review and see if my WAG is close. If it is good we should name it. I have only messed with 3 or so cats. I do not count improved cases as true wildcats, so this is the best I could come with given the fact that about ten beers and about 5 minutes to think about, does not sound so bad.

Best bet would be to talk him out of a wildcat, have him buy a Modle 7 in 7-08 and shoot youth loads out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Blueprinted:
, so this is the best I could come with given the fact that about ten beers and about 5 minutes to think about, does not sound so bad..

Like the approach but it could be improved with a couple more Brews. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Blueprinted:
Used Remington 700, douglas cromoly barrel Bell and Carlson carbalite stock, or get your hands on a used Banser. Krylon for blueing and final finish, if cost is a concern. If money is not too much problem substitute Remington 7 or a 700 Titanium (Optional), premium S/S barrel, Banser High Tec or Mcmillian with edge fill and cericoate all the metal (it is a hunting gun). Either way Nikon 2-7 Pro-staff, hard to find more scope for the money on a rig of this type.

Hold a 7-08 reamer back .125. Ream neck to desired length, cut the throat on the generous side, Alla Weby. More capacity than a 6-250AI, should get a 120-140 moving over 2500fps 160s at 2200. Just guessing, no quick load. At those speeds Remington Core-lokt bullets should perfom as well as a partition and be way cheaper to shoot alot.

Standard dies could be modified. Enough case taper to feed really well, enough neck to grip long bullets and keep it out of the powder. Brass is everywhere, 260,7-08, 308 or 243 could be used, in every grade from onec fired military to Norma and Laupa.

I was orginally thinking just neck up a 250Savage, but you seemed to lean towards long necks. I think this would give you more powder room in the body also.

Boomie give it a review and see if my WAG is close. If it is good we should name it. I have only messed with 3 or so cats. I do not count improved cases as true wildcats, so this is the best I could come with given the fact that about ten beers and about 5 minutes to think about, does not sound so bad.

Best bet would be to talk him out of a wildcat, have him buy a Modle 7 in 7-08 and shoot youth loads out of it.

how about that with a 260 twist?

Ok.

Design Parameters: compact size and light recoil, game up to 500lbs under 250 yards.

Several years ago, when Remington chambered the 250 Savage in the Classic, about a dozen friends of mine split a set of reamers in 25-284 and had all the rifles rechambered in that wildcat. They have killed dozens of Elk and Black Bears, and antelope, and coyotes and...everything. I would propose that. It fits and it works.

Option B: a 6.5-220 Swift. I would have suggested the 6.5-284, but he wants a wildcat.

Option C: in the early 'nineties I took the illustrated (thanks boomie) 6.5x68 Shuler and blew most of the taper out, then necked it down to 25 caliber. The 257 Banshee. Run the reamer in 2" and cut the neck for the original 6.5mm caliber. A short Imp 6,5x68S...you could call it the 6,5x50.

Did I pass? Get an "A"?

Rich
DRSS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ok.

Did I pass? Get an "A"? Much more ! I'm sure roger

Bent and bartsche,
Bit higher up you guys mentioned the 22/250. A few weeks back it hit me that here's a readily available case, which premium brass in the form of Lapua, a handy case capacity ... but bugger all wildcats based of it other than the 6/250 and some straighter versions of the same case. Why??? Even opened up as large as 35cal, she'd be a pretty handy wildcat and much easier to get brass for than a 35Rem ... over here at least ... and no odd bolt head size. Should be pretty nice in 270cal again becasue the SPC has spawned some pretty nice lighter projectiles in the 270cal. The lesser case capacity compared to the 308Win as a parent case might even make it a bit more suitable for the 20" barrel mentioned. And ... used 22/250s are damn easy to find!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Should be pretty nice in 270cal again becasue the SPC has spawned some pretty nice lighter projectiles in the 270cal. The lesser case capacity compared to the 308Win as a parent case might even make it a bit more suitable for the 20" barrel mentioned. Con

I find that a nice approach. 6.5 or .270 might just be perfect. In .358 you might be stretching the neck wall just a tad too much. roger