I have been toying with the idea of building a rifle specifically for shooting rabbits in areas where ricochets and carry-over are a problem, for shooting rabbits. The idea is to design a centre-fire cartridge with a seat behind the neck and a larger mouth to accommodate the pellet skirt. The 'seat' could be a tube inserted into a case, possibly a 25 ACP case or a machined up invention (maybe a modified hornet case). Air rifle pellets can be driven quite fast (I've tested them in my hornet - I blew some up). I have a long barrel and a short piece of barrel. Not sure whether length is needed to get the speeds without too much pressure to destroy the pellet.

This is just a fun project and a challenge!

Man to each his own on how he wants to spend his time and $$. I have a Gamo Whisper. Super quiet and just under 1200fps with PBA type pellets. The air is free.

My dad would use 22 CBs. They come either short or long case 29gr at 710fps. Work great from a little single shot.

I am lost.

There are some serious problems with this idea but I love the out of the box thinking... just need it to be in the box of reality. That said there are some reeeeely serious air rifles out there. but how bout a 22 levergun?

Maybe loading some 17, 22 or 25 cal bb's in a hornet case and not soft lead skirted pellets.

Could you paper patch a 20 caliber, 5 m/m to 22?
sabot?

Paul
did you chrono that whisper? i have a b30, that is listed at 1200... its 950 max with pba ... but it so accurate, once i worked the trigger, that i couldnt send it back

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Paul
did you chrono that whisper

Jeffe I bought the rifle from a buddy he Chrono'd the PBA at 1170. I didn't have PBAs at the lease but read 975 with lead. I do know you get a CRACK with the PBAs that you don't get with lead which I ASSUME says they are above 1140. So to be quiet when I take out the varmints in the backyard I stick to lead.

Checked the velocity this morning 11/18. PBAs I got a reading on 3 out of 5 average 1163. Normal lead 5 for 5 average 971.

Thanks for all the ideas.

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to each his own on how he wants to spend his time and $$.

No $$$, only time. It started out with the idea of a compressed air driven 22cal air rifle for practice then I thought I would rather just practice on rabbits.

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Maybe loading some 17, 22 or 25 cal bb's in a hornet case and not soft lead skirted pellets.

That could work! I'll see if I can locate some and give them a try - thanks. another possibility is to make 'pellets' from spent 22lr cases and filling them with wax or something. I have made one but have not tried it. The only thing I have not done is squeeze the open mouth down enough, due to lack of a suitable die (poor excuse I know). Nothing stopping me from making a set of forming dies and punches to go in my loading press! Mmmm.....

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Could you paper patch a 20 caliber, 5 m/m to 22?
sabot?

The idea is to have a very light and poor BC projectile that cannot carry too far. Even the CB's have substantial weight and velocity but do not seem to kill rabbits that well. I have witnessed a 17 caliber air rifle at work on rabbits and ... well ... it did not work too well either. I have shot 22cal air rifle pellets out my hornet but found it to be quiet difficult to load and keep the pellets in place and this would mean resighting. (Or having a separate scope. Mmmmm.... )

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I am lost.

The idea is to power an air rifle pellet using a primer and a small charge, in a rifle, chambered for that purpose. The case could be a shortened hornet case with an insert or cannelure against which the pellet would be seated. Even at supersonic velocities, the 'crack' is quite inoffensive in semi-rural up areas. I already have the barrel I could use. (I was going to use it for a 303-22 wildcat but I have since been gifted a 303-25).

I could very easily make up an insert for my single shot shotgun using this barrel. (That one is to be silenced and scoped for night use on possum – so it should work just fine with the same scope setting). Oh my goodness! I think I am going to do that!

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.... out of the box thinking... just need it to be in the box of reality ....

I never think inside the box but occasionally I do think inside the box of reality!

I think it would be interesting to put 3 22 cal bb's under a crimped 22 hornet. kinda like a mini shotgun.

put some filler on top of the charge than add the 3 bb's then crimp. the top bb should stick out a bit.

Sorry for the crude drawing.

having 3 BB's will come in handy since this wont be all that accurate and not going that fast. maybe keep it subsonic.

I would be curious to see what the s bb groups would look like.

Well some things are just not done, and some people go about there ways different from me.

Reinventing the wheel, noo I dont thinks so.

I would get a FX- PCP air rifle and be out in the fields shooting rather then be on AR talking about shooting rabbits.


http://www.fxairguns.com/

They have a semiauto that is really neat.

http://www.fxairguns.com/_video/FXchallenge2007.wmv

http://www.fxairguns.com/_video/FXAirguns.wmv


Head shots only if .177 and with a .22 full power you can take them with body shots to.

Best regards Chris

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Head shots only if .177 and with a .22 full power you can take them with body shots to.

That's my point. Only, I specifically want to build my .22 'air rifle'. It's the fun factor! I did think of a pump gun. I have the means but I think the centre fire will be more fun.

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I think it would be interesting to put 3 22 cal bb's under a crimped 22 hornet.

You draw a heap better than I can. I wonder how that would perform? Worth a try! In fact, it would not take much to fill the case with epoxy to make the interior straight. I'll do that today.

I wonder if one can still get 22 BB caps? I would not fire them in my 22lr - they leave a horrible residue ring at the case mouth.

I dont think you would need to alter the case with epoxy. the filler would push the bottom bb into the "Shoulder" like a funnel. the hornet does not reeely have a shoulder but a taper. should be the best bang for the buck.

Aquila super colibri. Approx 500 fps with I believe a 29 grain lead bullet. Primer only and fairly accurate in my 512.

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... the filler would push the bottom bb into the "Shoulder" like a funnel ...

True. (It is that "shoulder" that I think makes it possible for me to load my hornet so 'hot' using Lil'Gun, without going overpressure. The powder compresses to form a 'wad').

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Aquila super colibri. Approx 500 fps with I believe a 29 grain lead bullet.

The ones I tried many years ago had a conical nose and hollow skirt. They could not kill a minah bird when fired out of a revolver.

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Primer only and fairly accurate in my 512.

You have a 521! Great rifle!

Here's mine;

It did not look like that when I got it. That stock has been boiled and soaped and solvented and epoxied and sealed - I never thought the wood would come out with such rich colour again.

Here is a pic of my latest rabbit medicine;

Not exactly an air rifle pellet but it should do just nicely in the meantime. It is of course, a spent 22lr case, which has gone through a swage die I made. I tried closing the nose more but the whole thing collapsed. (I made a punch for the press today but it is a tad too short). The 'pellet' is hollow at this stage. I might fill it with candle wax to increase the weight a bit - it is lighter than a lead pellet.

Are you familiar with the Eichelberger line of wildcats? These seem like they might be right up your alley.

10 Eich LR - a 22LR C A R E F U L L Y reloaded with a .10 cal bullet. 7.2gr bullet

10 Eich Pup - necked down 22 Cooper CCM

10 Eich Squirrel - 22 hornet cut down and necked down to .103

12 Eich LR - same as 10 LR, but with a .123" bullet in a 22LR case

12 Cooper - same as 10 Pup but in .123"

12 Eich WRM - you guessed it, .123" in a 22 rim mag

12 Eich Carbine - 30 Carbine necked down

14 Eich Dart - 25 ACP necked down to .144"

14 Eich Bee - 218 Bee necked down to .144

14 Cooper rimmed Cooper CCM brass necked down to .144


SSK makes bullets and barrels for contenders and such, some of these, like the ACP and 22LR based ones would work out of bolt actions.

Seems these little zippers go fast but die off very quickly, might be just what you're looking for? If not, I can't see any reason not to just use a 22 short or 22 long

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Originally posted by Moorepower:
Aquila super colibri. Approx 500 fps with I believe a 29 grain lead bullet. Primer only and fairly accurate in my 512.

I think I would go with the Super Colibri also.

I could also go with a standard Air rifles. My PCP gun will put a pellot out at any speed that I would like.

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Aquila super colibri. Approx 500 fps with I believe a 29 grain lead bullet. Primer only and fairly accurate in my 512.

I have seen the 700 fps, 29gr (I think) bulleted CB's not kill a rabbit. That bullet is still fairly heavy if it were to deflect and land on someone's head or something. But I have always wanted to launch a 22 air rifle pellet from a centre-fire. I tried it in my 223 but not too good. In the hornet they were supersonic but not that noisy. I tried hotter in the hornet but they never reached the target!

I am about to test fire that round in the picture with the empty 22lr case 'pellet'. The hornet has a silencer so it should be fairly quiet.

Thanks for the Eichelberger info. That could be a neat future project. I wonder how noisy (or quiet) a .10 bullet would be with a silencer?

How effective would a CO2 powered 22 cal pellet be from a long barrel? I am thinking of the CO2 canisters used with paint ball guns.



P.S. has anybody noticed the insipient head separation ring on that hornet case?

The first one - no damage and no shock in the medium.
The second one loaded a bit hotter! Case filled to base of 'pellet' (H4227).
What it did to the medium - water soaked wool furnature padding in a can.
What the primer looked like - considerably more 'flattening' than the first. (At least there was a little bit of pressure).

20 plus years ago they were drilling out primer pockets of 222Rem cases to accept shotgun primers, filling the case with epoxy and drilling it out inline (to reduce internal capacity) and then seating a 22cal pellet. It was done more for indoor practice than anything else.
Cheers...
Con

COOL!

Now how bot the 3 bb's in the Hornet

Thanks for the idea, Con. Perfect! Load the pellet in the back of the case against a proper lip with the head supported in the neck, then place powder and primer in that order! For that I had better make a primer seating die that faces down and has a proper 'bullet catcher' in case it goes off! But if the shotgun primer is a finger pressure fit, there should be no danger. Funny, you know, I had thought of shotgun primers initially. Hey, why can't I chamber the barrel to take shotgun primers? They are rimmed! Mmmm ..... (I do have a barrel off-cut I could play around with! I would have to fit a long - and permanent - silencer to it to make it 'rifle' length to be legal. If that works, I'll do it to my full-length barrel).
Mmmm .... Make a cartridge comprising a shotgun primer with an air rifle pellet 'glued' to it?!!

boom stick, I shall see if I can find some BB's today and give them a try! What filler should I use? (Maybe I could use powder as a filler? Slow powder, that is). I'll try both three BB's and single BB's. I am supposed to be heading to a range this afternoon.

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Could you paper patch a 20 caliber, 5 m/m to 22?
sabot?

I haven't overlooked this idea, Rusty. I have packet full of short 5mm brass rods that I am thinking of machining into lightweight bullets (or pellets) - I would need a holding tool for the paper patching!

They should add a smiley face for licking toads!

Well I said filler cuzz you wanted light loads but slow powder is perfect to keep the bottom bb right at the funnel of the neck. Cant wait to see the velocities and pattern.

i have put pellets in a neck sized 223 round,it's not to loud and it just uses a primer either a mag small rifle or regular one. it worked on birds out the back door in the apple tree.

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... pellets in a neck sized 223 round, it's not to loud and it just uses a primer ...

I tried that with my 223 but the pellet stayed in the barrel! (So I would add just a little double base pistol powder but accuracy was not good). In the hornet, the results were not impressive either but I was using very mild Federal primers).

I used a 22 Hornet and i.o/Bullseye. then pushed a .22 pellet in BACKWARDS into the sized [no expander ball] and primed case. Worked fine on Myna and the occasional Pheasant in Hawaii.
Aloha, Mark

Supposed to have been 1.0 Bullseye!

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a .22 pellet in BACKWARDS into the sized

Now that I have got to try! Thanks. I am going out to a farm tomorrow. (I went out today but did not try out anything. I shot a rabbit with my 'standard' hornet load and blew it in half!).

I had a look at my local gun shop for some 22cal BB's but they have never stocked them. Maybe I could load four .177cal BB's into a resized 22lr case, with packing of some kind, like a 'brass cup'. But I didn't think of that in time to buy some. They were also out of shotgun primers! But I did meet an interesting young man in the gun room.

I never made it to the farm today - too windy! So I tried out my '22lr-case-hornet-pellet'. Well, the first one had a sort of double discharge sound albeit very quiet. No hit to be seen. The second one had 'a bit more powder'. Oops! A bit noisy! Still, I fired the gun through a tube of old car tyres. The prototype I had a dent in the base from powder pressure. At nine meters it would have hurt a rabbit.
The first pellet is the one that made the hole in the can and dented the particle board. The second pellet made the hole in the centre of the can and the puncture at the rear and smaller dent in the particle board. The third pellet is prototype I, and the last pellet is prototype II. This one has the base of the case pushed inward instead of outward. The idea is that it will be much stronger that way and will not deform under gas pressure.

This can was filled with water.


This last one was fired directly into the particle board and had less powder. It did not hit anywhere near the aim point!??? Note the cant angle! It did make a sharp supersonic 'crack', unlike the first one fired which had the same powder charge - which also did not hit anywhere near the aim point!

I decided not to test the other ideas - the neighbours might start wondering what I am up to!

Quit a few years ago I bough some .22 Hornet cases modified for shooting air rifle pellets. The necks were opened up for easy insertion of the pellets. There were dimples made where the bottom of the pellets would be to keep them from falling into the bottom of the case. And they were made to use large rifle primers. I think I got about 450 fps using promers only and got about 1050 fps by adding 1.5 grains of Unique. With more powder the velocity increased but after the velocity got supersonic the noise got much louder. Acuracy was OK. I think a .22 CCM (Cooper Centerfire Magnum) or shortened .22 CCM case would work better than a .22 Hornet since it would have less volume.

I tried multiple ball loads in a .45-70 after reading about how a guy did that in .444 Marlin. Results were poor as the front ball got flattened on the behind, the back ball got flattened on the front, and the middle ball turned into a cylinder. There was too much spread in the patterns to be effective past very short range.

I recently tried multiple ball loads in my .50-140 Sharps, but put Poly-Patches between the balls so they would not get so deformed. It worked OK as I get about 1,200 fps and 6-inch patterns or smaller at 50 yards. Anyway, I think one could use multiple ball loads in the .22 CCM. I think one could get at least 3 balls in that case. One could put a couple grains of plastic buffering between the balls to keep them from deforming. I think a rabbit hit with three .22 caliber balls at about 1,000 fps would not last very long. However, .22 caliber lead balls may richochette more than air rifle pellets which squish down on impact and absorb energy.

I think that I will try multiple ball loads in my .22 CCM.

quote:

Originally posted by IOWADON:
Quit a few years ago I bough some .22 Hornet cases modified for shooting air rifle pellets. The necks were opened up for easy insertion of the pellets. There were dimples made where the bottom of the pellets would be to keep them from falling into the bottom of the case. ... However, .22 caliber lead balls may ricochet more than air rifle pellets which squish down on impact and absorb energy.

I think that I will try multiple ball loads in my .22 CCM.

Thanks for the dimple idea. I was 'over designing' the concept with a ring impressed around the base of the neck.

I was also worried about the 22cal balls ricocheting too much but they would still be a heap better than a ricocheting bullet!

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Poly-Patches between the balls so they would not get so deformed. It worked OK as I get about 1,200 fps and 6-inch patterns or smaller at 50 yards.

I also thought of packing them. Poly patches? Mmmmm....
I could try AAA shot - they are just smaller than 22. Mmmm ... 6-inch patterns or smaller at 50 yards sounds just fine! The dimple idea would also stop the balls from falling back into the case. Failing round balls, what do you think 22cal lead cylinders? One could get four of those into a hornet case and they would engage the rifling. Cardboard wads separating them? Those can be made easily. (I’ll make a mould tomorrow).

Is this the idea?


I used this sizer die I made a while ago to size the neck after 'dimpling' to fit the pellet skirt so that it just stays in place.

It was originally intended to slightly size the neck and compress the powder charge with a wad, to keep the powder from pushing the slightly loose bullet out again. It worked for that just fine but I found it more useful for repairing damaged case necks - and now it works great for sizing the necks to just hold an air rifle pellet!


Addendum: OK great! Now that I have fired it (and it works just fine), how do I de-cap it?

The dimples are just points rather than a crease. Maybe lead cylinders would be as good or better than lead balls. Maybe Beaman Airguns in California has .22 caliber lead balls. I think the .22 CCM cartridge would be best for multiple ball loads becvause it is a strait case. Also, I bet one could make the chamber with a drill is the chamber reamer is not available for a good price. Also, brass is difficult to get, but there is a company in the USA making .22 CCM brass from Hornet brass.

I have been 'working up' loads in small increments (so as to keep within safe working pressures ) This can filled with water is beginning to give indications of badly hurt rabbits! I have reached 4.3grs of H4227 (what we call AR2205 over here) and it is still subsonic. It is an amazingly quiet round! I don't want to cross the sound barrier again - not today anyway.


I am still loading that same case with the 'crinkles' as you put it. (That was done with a pair of side cutters - it is a scrap case). I have lost my neck sizer The idea is to size the neck right down then open it up to the depth I want the pellet to seat. I have taken to sealing the neck with molten waxy-lube - just the tip were the pellet head contacts the neck mouth.


Thanks for the .22 CCM cartridge idea. It does make more sense. Right now I am just going to pursue the dimpled hornet case idea with air rifle pellets as well as with round ball and cylinders and see which one works best. Oh yes, there is still the shot shell primer idea in a hornet case and rear loading of the pellet. With a bit of luck, I should be testing some of these ideas on real live rabbits in the next day or two!

This has been a fun Sunday!

The "Rear crimp" might be best for the single 22 cal BB in the hornet but I think the 3 BB's idea is worth a "Shot"

Keep us posted!

I also would be curious to see the velocities you can get with a 22 cal BB. I would try some copper BB's for this.

I could turn some near round brass BB's. That and a few cylindrical slugs. I did not get to make a mould today - way to tired! (But I did epoxy bed my hunting buddies side-mount scope base on his No.4).

Hi

Jusby chance I saw this one, and I thought I must tell you, years ago I was given a 308 Win Gamegetter, a chap in Canada made them, it had a 308 case modified too take a 22 blank in the back and a small lead pellet .308 size in the front,

Worked like a charm on short distances

That is interesting! Thanks for that, Kwan. It wouldn't be too difficult to make a swage die for 304 pellets for my 303 Brit. Mmmm..... In the new year - yes!

BOOM STICK
Where did you get the triptich of evil-doers you include at the end of your messages??
This would make a great t-shirt/bumper sticker/etc.
Full disclosure - I copied yours and sent it to like-minded folks. They loved it.
Mike

You have just given me a great use for the suply of old alcan magnum small rifle primers I have laying around.
They are between 3% and 5% duds because of age but I still didn't throw them away...

YEARS ago I played with a group of neck sized 223Rem cases and an airrifle pellet (Beeman magnum "hunting" pellets, seated so that the forward driving band was still outside the case neck.

they were absolutely deadly on squirrels which take a bunch more killing than cottontails.

then again my Air rifle, a 177cal RWS 45M was capable of driving pellets diagonally through squirrels

Jackrabbits?, I consider either stingers or those prefragmented hunting 22's to be minimum and failing a supply of either a 22mag.

But I've seen forward body hits from a 22WMR fail to stop a jackrabbit, so I've decided in the future that either headshots from whatever rim fire or simply use my 223 and blow them to bits.

AD

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... prefragmented hunting 22's ...

That's interesting! The whole idea of the 'air rifle pellet' centre fire is the close proximity to dwellings and a road. Many of our rabbit populations are on small holdings which makes the use of 22rf's a bit risky. Noise is also problamatic but a sonic crack from an air rifle pellet is better than a 40gr 22 bullet overshooting it's mark! (The other option is a silenced shotgun! - Next project! I have the single barrel gun already).