quote:

.You conned me with photos from other operators, photos of camps and trophies you'd never seen!!

JKHunter:

In one of your earlier replies you claimed to have been the victim of circumstance, i.e. that you were unwittingly supplied the photos by an outfitter; presumably the one who failed to deliver the goods to the gentleman who is currently voicing his displeasure.

This outfitter has clearly done you no favours.

Does he have a name?

Yes he does , the client knows his name so he can mention if he wants but till the time that the court case is done, its not my place to mention,

issue is the goods were delivered to the Gentlemen voicing his displeasure, he should sent you all his trophy photos, you should see the smiles on his face,

JKHunter:

A rather unhelpful reply considering the photos were used by you in promoting your business.
I hope you realize other agents and clients may be victims of simliar circumstances.

I have no interest in the outcome of an issue which transpired between yourselves which surely will be ironed out in due course.

Ok guys let me sum it up:
Johnno gets pictures from the wrong area/Camp.
He goes to Tanz and he and his son hunt and take their major species.
Johnno does not pay his bill (around 50k$).
JKhunters sues him to get his money back.

Ok I agree it's not ok to send pictures from the wrong area/camp. That is something that should not happen, but not a reason to not pay the trophies you take!
So guys why are some talking about JKhunters mistakes and act like it's ok to steal 50k$?
When you hunt you have to pay, that's how it works....
Or am I missing something?

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
Ok guys let me sum it up:
Johnno gets pictures from the wrong area/Camp.
He goes to Tanz and he and his son hunt and take their major species.
Johnno does not pay his bill (around 50k$).
JKhunters sues him to get his money back.

Ok I agree it's not ok to send pictures from the wrong area/camp. That is something that should not happen, but not a reason to not pay the trophies you take!
So guys why are some talking about JKhunters mistakes and act like it's ok to steal 50k$?
When you hunt you have to pay, that's how it works....
Or am I missing something?

I'm glad it isn't just me. I thought I was missing something as well. Seems like the client got all of his intended species and wasn't billed extra for the move of concessions. Then he didn't pay up! Then he airs complaints? And JKHunter is the bad guy for seeking payment of the services he provided? JKHunter apologized for sending pics of the wrong area and evidently advised the client of this situation prior to the hunt commencing. Surely, I've missed something here as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Leopard Slayer:

quote:

if you take the time to read all the thready you will see that WWH was hunting with me for the time he was posting off my computer and my e mail so great detective work same IP adress

Surely you cannot be serious in posting such a statement!

Do you realize that while you have openly admitted it was your computer, your email(?) and IP address and allegedly permitted a third party (WWH) to make use of it expect to extricate yourself from any wrongdoings?

You are totally responsible for what is sent out from your computer, especially your email which is secured by a separate password!

Give us all a break and do yourself a favour by reducing the depth of the hole you are digging yourself!

Well, by now WWH is in Australia; be simple enough for him to post now and reveal his IP address.

I must admit, this reminds me of Saeed's advice: with so many good outfitters and PHs out there, why take a chance sorting the wheat from the chaff?

"Misleading and Deceptive Conduct" is the original topic in African Hunting. There were NO BUFFALO on the block, or on the Game Licence!

Caracal and Todd. I paid $27K plus about $7K for air charter to and from camp, via Arusha. $22K deal for fishing. On return to Oz, I get bill for trophies PLUS addons. JK says pay full bill or I'll destroy trophies.. I said go your hardest! JK never booked any fishing. I'll post emails later today... got to pick up my pension!!

Johnno,

I'm really trying to understand this entire mess so I have a couple of questions for you, and I'm really not trying to stir the pot. Just attempting to find out what really happened. I don't know either of you and have no reason to take a pro or con side. But I'm not understanding something here.

You stated that there were NO BUFFALO on the block or Game License. JKH says he told you, depending on water, that there may or may not be Buffalo in your area before you left on the safari and that he might have to move you inorder to hunt buffalo. Is that a true statement?

JKH states that after you took your leopard, he flew you and your son to a different concession where there were buffalo and that you and your son both took buffalo trophies in this new concession. Is that a true statement?

JKH states he flew you and your son to this different concession for buffalo without additional cost to you. Is that a true statement?

JKH also states that he became aware of the pictures being from the wrong area 1 month prior to your hunt and advised you of the situation prior to your leaving for the hunt. Is that a true statement?

I have no idea if the pics of the wrong area were a mistake or intentional. I have no idea if sending the wrong pics to clients is JKH's way of doing business, or if it was truly a one off mistake. But from what I can piece together of this debacle as presented, the pictures seem to be the only valid source of contention, if what JKH says is true in terms of advising you prior to embarking on the hunt. If you were advised of the pics being from a different area prior to the safari, were you offered the opportunity to cancel the hunt and receive a refund and would you have pursued this course of action if it were offered?

Johnno, I'm sorry for directing the questions to you but something really doesn't add up here.

The client booked an 18 Day Leopard Safari with Leopard being his number 1 priority,
Cost was cash $27 000

Fishing trip value $22 500 (11 days of fishing Oz)

Total value for Safari $49 500

This gave him a 1 x 1 safari for Leopard in Itulu Forest Rungwa

This gave his son a 2 x 1 buffalo hunt on a 10 day Licence and 8 days observer fee

So government licence and fees paid for 1 x 21 day licence and fee as well as 1 x 10 day licence + 8 days observer fee,

Client paid his $27 000 Day rates as well as $7300 for charter flights return from Dar to Itulu

Client paid $34 300 in total before Safari started, no deposit on Trophy fees paid

Client shot following trophies at Itulu

Leopard Zebra Hartebeest Warthog baboon Hyena

Client and Son Shot Buffalo each in Selous after the move

Client missed shots at both Roan and Sable in Itulu at very reasonable distances

Additional fees charged to client for the move was $3 550 (Gov. Fees and permits new area)

of which nothing has been paid by client but 100% paid my me to Outfitter

Before safari started I informed the client that the moving costs would be in the region of $6000

Trophy fees charged $16 900 of which nothing has been paid by client but 100% has been paid to the outfitter by me.

Additional charter fees to get to Selous and back to Dar came to $8 650 this was not charged to the client.

To this day client has not sent me an e mail or tried to contact me with any problems regarding his safari, all issues we had in regards to Photos sent to him were resolved before the safari started.

Client knew exactly where he was going to hunt as well as the fact that we would need to move camps,

3rdbite.. stick to your foresights and technical chats..where are you?..ever hunted? Read past posts slowly!!

While I posted reply to 3rdbite, JKHunter..who was WWhunter of "the smouldering campfires,etc harsh winds of the Namib desert I shared with...myself!!"... loaded up with 'Cane' and has come out sparring!! Whats your theory?..Tell porkie pies long enough and they'll stick?? Justin,,YOU were the
OUTFITTER"..Tell your mates caracal et al HOW an agent does a deal for 40% of cost. Whars rhis crap about AJ having a licence?? You couldnt lie straight in bed!! Born bullshitter!

Gday AR Members!!..Please help clear up some "confusing falsehoods, etc" Could a poster/reader please post a few emails from the agent/outfitter! to me, on to this thread? Should clear up a few questions.. Thanks, Johnno

Karan, what's all this bullshit about Alex and 2x1 blab blab. You're a SHONK!!.. I'll post emails, but see you in Court! Reason there's a court case.. he thought he'd have a shot, but once he stuck his head up, we put a tight headlock on it!! Amusing reading..WWHanker, OK to post emails??

When the smoke has cleard, lots of animals shot, lots wounded, lots missed and a lot of money owed we become un- happy. It certainly sounds as if someone is trying to get out of paying for money owed.

The Courts can sort out the he said, you said end of the stick but if you shoot animals, especially those for which you came And it is certainly obvious by the body count that this guy and son shot lots of animals and good ones so he should pay the bill for the trophies killed.

You may hate the PH, that is not important, if anyone goes anywhere shoots animals it then becomes your obligation to pay for those animals. From the reports it sounds as if they could shoot better the bill would have been much higher.

If one goes anywhere and there are no animals in the area, no opportunities then it becomes an entirely different matter.

Like 3rdBite I'm also curious what the issue at hand is. Was the issue of the misleading photo's cleared up before the hunt? If it was then Marlin's case looks a little thin. If it wasn't then I understand why he is acid, BUT if he pulled the trigger on a bunch of animals and put them in the salt, he is still are obliged to pay for them. Would he be entitled to take the outfitter to task and demand some form of compensation/discount? Sure he would. But to not pay for any trophies? Hmmmm. There was a similar case here on AR where Llamapacker went and shot a bunch of trophies but because the credentials of the PH were dodgy or the area was not the right one (can't remember exactly) he refused to pay for what he had shot. It did not go down well here.
JCHB

the fishing thing really complicates matters as well. what was that all about?

...." you been to chicken shit to post the photos of the animals you hunted or wounded I should say"...

Not sure how someone can post a photo of a wounded animal.

..."or tell me did you not pay your account because you only found out after your safari that you could not import Leopard to Australia, what a shock that must have been to find that out"...

Now if you are as good an agent [COLOR:BLUE] as you claim to be, you should have let your Australian client know of the Australian Leopard import restrictions at the time of booking the hunt and not after?..... just saying.

JKHunter, sometimes you say things without giving it a second thought.

Was the client told in advance that he was going to have to move from area A to area B if he wanted different species - did you have a written contract to this effect?

Charter costs from area to area, all discussed in advance and agreed upon? .... Man, those damn charter flights can cost an arm and a bloody leg and I really sympathize with clients on that issue but let's not open up that can of worms again!

According to claims by Johnnomarlin, it would appear he has no less than 14 African safaris under his Australian beer gut so his pension check isn't as skinny as the half-beaks he uses for bait or what you make it out to be.

I agree it simply isn't cricket to have short-changed you on trophy fees unless something went seriously wrong to a point where the man was left with no other option and the only weapon at hand at the end of the hunt was to block payment - that is also one of the reasons why an agent holds money in escrow until the client gives the green light.......have we not heard this often enough?

I asked some very straight forward questions but have yet to receive any answers, straight forward or not. Like others, I'm having a hard time deciphering Johnno's cryptic complaints.

Again Johnno, please, yes or no:

Was the issue of the pictures known prior to leaving on the hunt?

Did you shoot your intended species?

If you did shoot your intended species, killed or wounded, did you pay for them?

Did you know, prior to leaving on the hunt, that you would likely have to move inorder to hunt buffalo?

Were you charged extra to move to this new concession to hunt buffalo or did JKH cover those costs?

Johnno, JKH claims you knew all of these things prior to leaving home for the hunt. If you did, and went ahead, and were successful on your major species, what is the complaint now?

JKH, a question for you:

As an agent who is supposed to look after your client's interests, did you advise Johnno prior to the hunt that leopard is not importable into Oz?

I know of several Aussie hunters who pursue elephant bulls on safari, so this may or may not have been a deterrent as it appears Johnno wanted to complete his "Big 5" and start his son on his "Big 5". But it would be pertinent to know ahead of time that certain animals are not importable.

Hi Todd,

I had no idea at all regarding the importation of Leopard to Australia, I only stumbled upon this last year, 1 year after the Safari had happened,

I was approached by a friend asking me to make a plan for his Australian friend who wanted to hunt a Leopard, I did not pursue the client to sell him a hunt for a Leopard so i did not do any home work in regards to Australian law, I even have the Cities export permit that has expired now that was made out to the client in Australia

One of the conditions of the hunt was that he would pay in fishing days not cash. Dumb ass me said sure I will make it work,

The client keeps coming back to me making 40% comm. On this hunt, I do not know where he comes to this, I paid the outfitter more than the $27k I charged him for the hunt, he thinks I am to pocket $22 500 worth of fishing as pure commission on the hunt,

If so has anyone ever hunted in Tanzania for 18 days for $27k for 2 hunters,

I want to just clear a point here as well, the son did not shoot a Buffalo on the Fathers permit, he took a buffalo on the fathers quota but I took a permit out in the sons name to cover me if a situation ever arose like this,

And luckily I have all the documents and permits in my possession,

quote:

I want to just clear a point here as well, the son did not shoot a Buffalo on the Fathers permit, he took a buffalo on the fathers quota but I took a permit out in the sons name to cover me if a situation ever arose like this,

Oooops !

Why Oooops, you legally cant hunt 2 people off one permit, it is readily done by outfitters but I was not comfortable, that is why I spent the extra $$$ and got the kid his own permit for a buffalo hunt,

Should say lucky not Ooops,

quote:

. Whars rhis crap about AJ having a licence?? You couldnt lie straight in bed!! Born bullshitter!

Surprise what you think I am stupid enough to let him hunt with out a permit..... why don't you call the wildlife department in Tanzania and try find it your self.... or just wait a while and you will get it in the post from your cracker lawyer once he gets all the documents for the case,

would still love you to post those photos of your trophies taken so all can see,

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Why Oooops, you legally cant hunt 2 people off one permit, it is readily done by outfitters but I was not comfortable, that is why I spent the extra $$$ and got the kid his own permit for a buffalo hunt,

Should say lucky not Ooops,

JKHunter:


Could you tell us exactly how many buffalo were on Johnno's permit and how many on his son's?

"Kid" is a most inappropriate term to be used in reference to an 18 yr old by a gentleman of your upstanding!

Boy, what a mess. But if I was forced to believe anyone it would be jkhunter. Sounds like the client killed everything he had hoped for and more.

fujotupu.....has Justin Karan ever been convicted of anything in a court of law prior to this event? Does he have a history in the PH community of bad behavior?

I have a very hard time with your anonymity when his identity and reputation are wide out in the open.

Guys, this just seems like a mess all the way around. Maybe a court is the only place to settle the matter after all. I don't know.

Because of the cryptic, rambling, and somewhat incoherent statements being made by Johnno, I still don't know the specific issue he has other than the issue with the pictures and lack of buffalo in the original concession. He hasn't mentioned anything about the leopard import. Maybe that isn't an issue as again, I do know Aussie hunters who pursue elephant bull trophies, opting to have replica tusks made. Of course, that is a bit impossible with a leopard! Unless and until he gives us a more clear and concise answer to what was shot and what wasn't and whether or not he paid the balance of the safari, it's going to be hard to make heads or tails of the dispute.

It appears that JKH is maybe not completely set up to act as an agent for Tanzanian outfitters. Case in point being that he didn't have accurate pictures of the area to be hunted and didn't know (and advise the client) of the leopard import issues for Oz. I would hope my agent would know all the ins and outs concerning the hunt and would steer me clear of conflicts and issues I'm unaware of. Otherwise, why not just go direct with the outfitter. If JKH did advise Johnno about the potential lack of buffalo at the time of booking the hunt, then it appears he did attempt to act in good faith and had at least partial knowledge of the situation on the ground. But I'm still a bit confused as to why he would pay, out of his pocket, for the charter flight to move clients from one area to the other, unless he found out about the potential lack of buffalo in the area after the booking was made. If that's the case, we are back to the issue of the agent not being fully informed, but it does show good faith in trying to make the situation right after commitments were made by both sides. I'm not sure where fujotupu is going with the permit vs quota argument as I've not hunted TZ and only have a general knowledge of their game laws. It appears JKH was doing the right thing by getting the son a buffalo permit as well but again, it appears that it was maybe an afterthought to do so?

And the really confusing statement that has me stumped is that JKH states Johnno wanted to complete his "Big 5" with the leopard, but didn't want to break the bank in doing so. If this is the case, WHY TANZANIA??!!

So I may be all wet here but it appears to me that JKH maybe got in a bit over his head in attempting to expand his agent services into an area he isn't completely brushed up on. It also appears that he tried to make a plan and do the right thing by Johnno as these omissions became apparent. Now if Johnno and his son were successful in taking their animals, or even in wounding the ones that didn't make it into the salt, it appears they had ample opportunity to successfully complete the safari and final payment should be remitted. If I've figured this all correctly, I'd say some discount on the total and final payment is inorder, but not paying the bill at this point is not proper. Not at all!

Again, I may be totally wrong on all of this, but without better definition of the complaint, and without full knowledge of the events of the safari, both prior to, during, and afterwards, that's about the best I can sort out. It's probably too late at this point but I do hope both of you guys get a satisfactory resolution.

Norton:

Nobody is labeling anyone a criminal and I fail to understand why you are bringing this up?

If these two gentlemen are having a go at each other in court I would say the case is civil and not criminal and trying to get some facts right is part of the debate.

You have every right to choose what you might think is the winning side of the coin.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Norton:

Nobody is labeling anyone a criminal and I fail to understand why you are bringing this up?

If these two gentlemen are having a go at each other in court I would say the case is civil and not criminal and trying to get some facts right is part of the debate.

A person's prior history is very important in determining their credibility wouldn't you agree? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?"

JK:

Would have been much simpler if Johnny Marlin paid you in TCs, then reported them stolen.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Because of the cryptic, rambling, and somewhat incoherent statements being made by Johnno, I still don't know the specific issue he has other than the issue with the pictures and lack of buffalo in the original concession. He hasn't mentioned anything about the leopard import. Maybe that isn't an issue as again, I do know Aussie hunters who pursue elephant bull trophies, opting to have replica tusks made. Of course, that is a bit impossible with a leopard!

Elephants and spotted cats may not be imported to Australia. Legal lions are OK though... go figure.

I would hardly depend on a PH or outfitter in any Country to be completely up on all the laws of any Country. It does not take a lot of effort to check everything out yourself. If this Gentleman is from Australia and did not determine the Import Regulations for the animals which he was shooting the he certainly does not seem the brightest bulb in the tree.

He shot it, he got it then Bwana it is his obligation to pay up for ALL he shot and all he wounded.

The only thing is some added area fees, the PH seems to have paid for the flight which seems to me that he tried to go more than half way.

It is not required that you end up having a love fest with your PH, you may hate the person but it sounds as if there was no problem with making bullets fly about. The problems pooped up when it was time to pay up. That smells a bit like someone in over their head and is looking for a bloody free lunch while shedding big tears over a photo which according to information long explained before the plane lifted off the ground in Australia.

Pay up for the animals. Then each put up the balance owed plus 20K have an independent Poloygraph examiner administer a Poloygraph with your slip and fall seconds in Ttendance with the person who is "TRUTHFUL" take the money and Mr. Untruthful also gets to pay for the Poloygraph examiner and the slip and fall boys (or girls).

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

Norton:

A person's prior history is very important in determining their credibility wouldn't you agree? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?"[/QUOTE]

Could be some truth in what you say but you also need to contemplate people with a reformed past who have had no further blemishes on their character.

Isn't that why we have parole boards who are prepared to give you a second chance?

Here with the permit as well as the proof of payment to the wildlife office for the full period of the safari,

Todd i read your comments and you are correct in most of what you have stated, i was a bit green and looking to impress,

I have learnt alot since 2010 in Tanzania and have had many happy clients since then,

[QUOTE
Could you tell us exactly how many buffalo were on Johnno's permit and how many on his son's?

QUOTE]

Tanzania Buffalo on permit for father 3 Buffalo
Tanzania Buffalo on permit for son 2 Buffalo

They each shot 1 buffalo which came of the father’s quota as I did not give any quota to the son to hunt as he was not paying as a hunter,

Whatever he shot was legal because of his permit but came of the fathers quota,

Hope this makes sense,

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:


One of the conditions of the hunt was that he would pay in fishing days not cash. Dumb ass me said sure I will make it work,

The client keeps coming back to me making 40% comm. On this hunt, I do not know where he comes to this, I paid the outfitter more than the $27k I charged him for the hunt, he thinks I am to pocket $22 500 worth of fishing as pure commission ...

Hey JK ,THANKS FOR THE SNIDE REMARKS ABOUT ME AN HUNTING IN THE EC
but being on AR I knew the smelly was going to hit the fan ... an it did

Getting back to understanding this situation
It seems to boil down to this fishing swap thing??

just a simple Q. He doesn't want to pay the balance as it is in the fishing swap ? you can't make the swap work in bookings? Or Jonno isn't playing ball with the fishing ? Jonno states you haven't booked any fishing.
whats up with the FISHING??

What's in your pre hunt contract ? Who is in breach ? And why


What is The clients main reason for not paying ?

GOB, you mouth off a bit! but I like your idea, and the TRUTH concept.. I'll get back soon with a proposal for skype, and we can all tune in. Johnno

Leopardvalley..Jk/wwh never emailed, phoned about the marlin fishing trip,(or trips) Supposed to take a couple of long time hunting mates with him. I kepy dates open..

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
[QUOTE
Could you tell us exactly how many buffalo were on Johnno's permit and how many on his son's?

QUOTE]

Tanzania Buffalo on permit for father 3 Buffalo
Tanzania Buffalo on permit for son 2 Buffalo

They each shot 1 buffalo which came of the father’s quota as I did not give any quota to the son to hunt as he was not paying as a hunter,

Whatever he shot was legal because of his permit but came of the fathers quota,

Hope this makes sense,

What you say is clear as crystal though contrary to the law.

Whatever species are entered on a permit are for the privilege of the license holder to hunt unless there is an obvious mistake made at the issuing office which the PH must observe when confirming the permit prior to going into the field.

For quota reasons as you have stated, Old Man Marlin should have had 2 on his permit and 1 on AJs.