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You might need to re-read it.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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JPK, 1) I will pull a MJines on you here in regards to the PH telling him to shoot it...do you not think the client has "some" responsibility for knowing what he is shooting??? 2) Believe me...we voiced opinion to Abie DuPlooy the PH on that lion. 3) That was 4 years ago...we learned from that experience and evolved to a different approach...ie: admitting we made mistakes in the beginning. 4) The pic of that lion in that post actually made it into a report to USFW. 5) I did not render an opinion in this thread other than to say I feel it is unfortunate for AR as it resulted in loosing valuable contributors and to state that I agreed with Steve Arenburg's post...a simple PM to a fellow hunter would have solved all and may have prevented him issues. 6) We (in regards to the lion thing) were actaully trying educate hunters on the plight of the lion...PH's SHOULD have already be on it. We apolologized many times to "wrldhuntr" (or whatever his correct handle was) for raining on his parade...and EVOLVED to use a seperate thread to discuss those kinds of matters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Answer to your first post - I read it and I read it accurately. See below. Answer to the second post - Yes, the op should have known it was a bull and not a cow he shot, and that is about it. He should have been told by the booking agent and/or the PH how the paperwork would work out right off the bat, before killing the elephant, or he should have inquired. But I find little fault with the op if he didn't ask. I would judge that reasonable reliance since there was, in addition to a government licensed PH and the booking agent, a government official present to, among other things, ensure the hunt was conducted within the law. [And, imo, that works right up to the point where a government official is paid off, which would bring an incident into an entirely different legal and criminal perspective involving different statues. If you look at recent Lacey Act prosecutions you couldn't help but to agree.] Good thing to have given the lion PH some grief, and I hope giving the hunter the green light to kill that lion was the result of an error in judging the lion on his part rather than intentional, but that does not excuse pissing on the hunter and his trophy - which MJines DID NOT do, and which makes your commentary regarding his innocuous question hypocritical as hell. Good you learned from the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not mean MJines has anything to learn from you, or anyone, regarding asking a simple, polite, direct and innocuous question. Good that you admitted to making the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not in any way excuse that behavior; that it was four years ago does not in any way excuse it either. It is entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way whether a photo of one or another particular young lion trophy is included in any report, moreover, it serves as no excuse for pissing on the hunter or his trophy. As I wrote earlier, the ends do not justify the means, and I think half of this thread is the result of the booking agent's attempted deflection when he wrote "everyone ended up happy." "If you don't have something nice to say, say nothing at all" is a good rule regarding posting comments on another member's hunting report. Just plain common sense, courtesy and good manners. MJines did not post in contravention of that simple courtesy. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Well, the same people that are dumping on Sam here are also the same people that strongly feel the Terminal Bullet information thread has no real life hunting relevance and is only for "Wet Paper Trophy Hunting". So, I doubt they'd care if any or all of that thread also gets deleted. | |||
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What a load of bull. No one, including me, is dumping on the op. Neither is MJine, who asked a simple, polite, direct and innocuous question, and that is all. The booking agent and the PH, that is a different story, imo. Regarding the wet paper trophy hunting thread, I could care less if it was deleted in so far as my interest in it is zero, but since other members have interest in it I would hate to see it deleted. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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. . . we certainly would not want anyone expressing differences of opinion . . . particularly opinions based on their own personal experiences . . . no room for that . . . in fact let's denigrate their opinions with references to whips and buggies, covered wagons and like drivel.  Perhaps all threads should be relegated to simple "+1" or "-1" replies? Mike | |||
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Who's dumping on Sam? The booking agent with the shifty and vague "explanation" on the other hand...everything is cool as long as everybody ends up happy. If I were Sam I would not let Andrew be my spokesman and let his words replace mine. | |||
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In regards to this post...I have nothing more to say about the lion thing...as stated...it was a while ago and we were neophytes in taking on the issue. We made mistakes, we evolved, we apologized, and we moved on. MJines (not I) is who brought it up. I never mentioned MJines in this thread either...until he brought up the lion issue...championing me as a hypocrit. In regards to Sam...I just disagree with you on some points. I think a simple PM about the original post to Sam to see if he mis-wrote something was the way to handle it. Obviously...Sam doesn't subscribe to your view of it either...just saying... Trying (but sometimes hard with this group) to make this my last post. If Sam was not such a good fellow, friend, and stand up guy all around...would not have posted to begin with. But...I do subscribe to your mantra (at least since the wrldhunter thing) that in regards to Hunting Reports...if you don't have anything nice to say...keep your fingers off the key-board or PM or start a seperate thread to talk about the issue in another forum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I asked the outfitter point blank what the deal was and got no response. Jeff | |||
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now there is a shocker. he had been so forthcoming on his earlier posts  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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It has been 17 days since we heard from Andrew. I thought he might attempt to clarify more. I guess I was wrong. | |||
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To me the larger issue would be that Sam has not posted anywhere else on here since this thread. Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Does that means we have to only follow what one member wants? | |||
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Sam leaving AR is a serious loss. Sam was a gentleman, attended the AR dinners at DSC, was an expert on double rifles and had bought enough doubles to be a sharp consumer advocate for a very expensive discretionary purchase. I would hate for the rest of AR to become like the political forum. A little civility would help this forum. Not regulated or moderated civility but just basic civil behavior by participants. Mike | |||
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I agree. I hope Sam returns. | |||
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Fully agree with that. Too many threads turn into pissing contests, with some of the parties roaming around the forum trying to settle personal scores on other threads than the original. Quite pathetic, I must say. Philip | |||
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You hit the nail on the head my friend!  | |||
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