The Accurate Reloading Forums
Deleted
13 November 2014, 16:36
ledvmDeleted
quote:
Originally posted by JPK:
I could do that, but it is so friggin' obvious I'll let you do it yourself.
Yes, I am an attorney, yes I am familiar with the Lacey Act...
JPK
You might need to re-read it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
13 November 2014, 16:57
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by JPK:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
I don't really have a dog in this fight...just happen to be friends with Sam. And...he has been a great friend at that.
Regardless of how you see it JPK...it does not change the outcome.
I tend to see this issue similar to how Steve Ahrenberg does. FWIW.
Lane, surely the irony of the foregoing is not lost on you considering some of the prior posts of certain forum members publicly calling out other members for hunt reports that included pictures of so-called young lions.
There is NO comparison Mike.
The plight of the lion continues to this day to be real concern.
The newest study I have seen from Zambia continues to recommend closure of lion in that country for lack of mature males. I will post it in the lion forum.
Me stating that his lion was too young to shoot could NOT legally hurt him in anyway either...the major point here.
That said...I and Aaron and others learned a lot from that experience and we EVOLVED to handle it differently by starting a thread in a different forum.
And again...I have no dog in this fight...but AR looses in the end.
You're right, there is no comparison.
MJines asks a simple, polite, direct question regarding a confusing comment by the op.
You piss on a guy's trophy....
Not comparable at all.
The op in this case is at no meaningful risk of legal trouble, and either an explanation or an "I don't know, I relied on the PH and the booking agent who were both there" would have sufficed.
Moreover, while the Zim elephant population isn't in any trouble, the f'in US Gov't claims it is, and crap like the worst case inference of what might have transpired on the op's hunt is why. Worse yet, the op and his agent's actions and words lead right to the worst case inference.
BTW way, think the f'in PH didn't tell the guy to shoot the lion? You pissed on the wrong guy!
JPK
JPK,
1) I will pull a MJines on you here in regards to the PH telling him to shoot it...do you not think the client has "some" responsibility for knowing what he is shooting???
2) Believe me...we voiced opinion to Abie DuPlooy the PH on that lion.
3) That was 4 years ago...we learned from that experience and evolved to a different approach...ie: admitting we made mistakes in the beginning.
4) The pic of that lion in that post actually made it into a report to USFW.
5) I did not render an opinion in this thread other than to say I feel it is unfortunate for AR as it resulted in loosing valuable contributors and to state that I agreed with Steve Arenburg's post...a simple PM to a fellow hunter would have solved all and may have prevented him issues.
6) We (in regards to the lion thing) were actaully trying educate hunters on the plight of the lion...PH's SHOULD have already be on it. We apolologized many times to "wrldhuntr" (or whatever his correct handle was) for raining on his parade...and EVOLVED to use a seperate thread to discuss those kinds of matters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
13 November 2014, 19:22
JPKAnswer to your first post - I read it and I read it accurately. See below.
Answer to the second post - Yes, the op should have known it was a bull and not a cow he shot, and that is about it. He should have been told by the booking agent and/or the PH how the paperwork would work out right off the bat, before killing the elephant, or he should have inquired. But I find little fault with the op if he didn't ask. I would judge that reasonable reliance since there was, in addition to a government licensed PH and the booking agent, a government official present to, among other things, ensure the hunt was conducted within the law. [And, imo, that works right up to the point where a government official is paid off, which would bring an incident into an entirely different legal and criminal perspective involving different statues. If you look at recent Lacey Act prosecutions you couldn't help but to agree.]
Good thing to have given the lion PH some grief, and I hope giving the hunter the green light to kill that lion was the result of an error in judging the lion on his part rather than intentional, but that does not excuse pissing on the hunter and his trophy - which MJines DID NOT do, and which makes your commentary regarding his innocuous question hypocritical as hell.
Good you learned from the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not mean MJines has anything to learn from you, or anyone, regarding asking a simple, polite, direct and innocuous question.
Good that you admitted to making the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not in any way excuse that behavior; that it was four years ago does not in any way excuse it either.
It is entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way whether a photo of one or another particular young lion trophy is included in any report, moreover, it serves as no excuse for pissing on the hunter or his trophy.
As I wrote earlier, the ends do not justify the means, and I think half of this thread is the result of the booking agent's attempted deflection when he wrote "everyone ended up happy."
"If you don't have something nice to say, say nothing at all" is a good rule regarding posting comments on another member's hunting report. Just plain common sense, courtesy and good manners. MJines did not post in contravention of that simple courtesy.
JPK
Free 500grains
13 November 2014, 20:04
tanksquote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
...
A lost contributor is a lost contributor whether it's over a Lion report or an Elephant report.
I would sure hate to see 27 pages of the Terminal Bullet information thread also end up with "deleted" in 40% of it.
Just sayin'
Well, the same people that are dumping on Sam here are also the same people that strongly feel the Terminal Bullet information thread has no real life hunting relevance and is only for "Wet Paper Trophy Hunting".
So, I doubt they'd care if any or all of that thread also gets deleted.
13 November 2014, 20:16
JPKquote:
Originally posted by tanks:
Well, the same people that are dumping on Sam here are also the same people that strongly feel the Terminal Bullet information thread has no real life hunting relevance and is only for "Wet Paper Trophy Hunting".
So, I doubt they'd care if any or all of that thread also gets deleted.
What a load of bull.
No one, including me, is dumping on the op.
Neither is MJine, who asked a simple, polite, direct and innocuous question, and that is all.
The booking agent and the PH, that is a different story, imo.
Regarding the wet paper trophy hunting thread, I could care less if it was deleted in so far as my interest in it is zero, but since other members have interest in it I would hate to see it deleted.
JPK
Free 500grains
13 November 2014, 20:24
MJinesquote:
Originally posted by tanks:
quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
...
A lost contributor is a lost contributor whether it's over a Lion report or an Elephant report.
I would sure hate to see 27 pages of the Terminal Bullet information thread also end up with "deleted" in 40% of it.
Just sayin'
Well, the same people that are dumping on Sam here are also the same people that strongly feel the Terminal Bullet information thread has no real life hunting relevance and is only for "Wet Paper Trophy Hunting".
So, I doubt they'd care if any or all of that thread also gets deleted.
. . . we certainly would not want anyone expressing differences of opinion . . . particularly opinions based on their own personal experiences . . . no room for that . . . in fact let's denigrate their opinions with references to whips and buggies, covered wagons and like drivel.
Perhaps all threads should be relegated to simple "+1" or "-1" replies?
Mike
13 November 2014, 20:29
txlonghornquote:
Originally posted by tanks:
quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
...
A lost contributor is a lost contributor whether it's over a Lion report or an Elephant report.
I would sure hate to see 27 pages of the Terminal Bullet information thread also end up with "deleted" in 40% of it.
Just sayin'
Well, the same people that are dumping on Sam here are also the same people that strongly feel the Terminal Bullet information thread has no real life hunting relevance and is only for "Wet Paper Trophy Hunting".
So, I doubt they'd care if any or all of that thread also gets deleted.
Who's dumping on Sam? The booking agent with the shifty and vague "explanation" on the other hand...everything is cool as long as everybody ends up happy. If I were Sam I would not let Andrew be my spokesman and let his words replace mine.
13 November 2014, 23:50
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by JPK:
Answer to your first post - I read it and I read it accurately. See below.
Answer to the second post - Yes, the op should have known it was a bull and not a cow he shot, and that is about it. He should have been told by the booking agent and/or the PH how the paperwork would work out right off the bat, before killing the elephant, or he should have inquired. But I find little fault with the op if he didn't ask. I would judge that reasonable reliance since there was, in addition to a government licensed PH and the booking agent, a government official present to, among other things, ensure the hunt was conducted within the law. [And, imo, that works right up to the point where a government official is paid off, which would bring an incident into an entirely different legal and criminal perspective involving different statues. If you look at recent Lacey Act prosecutions you couldn't help but to agree.]
Good thing to have given the lion PH some grief, and I hope giving the hunter the green light to kill that lion was the result of an error in judging the lion on his part rather than intentional, but that does not excuse pissing on the hunter and his trophy - which MJines DID NOT do, and which makes your commentary regarding his innocuous question hypocritical as hell.
Good you learned from the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not mean MJines has anything to learn from you, or anyone, regarding asking a simple, polite, direct and innocuous question.
Good that you admitted to making the mistake of pissing on a hunter and his trophy but that does not in any way excuse that behavior; that it was four years ago does not in any way excuse it either.
It is entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way whether a photo of one or another particular young lion trophy is included in any report, moreover, it serves as no excuse for pissing on the hunter or his trophy.
As I wrote earlier, the ends do not justify the means, and I think half of this thread is the result of the booking agent's attempted deflection when he wrote "everyone ended up happy."
"If you don't have something nice to say, say nothing at all" is a good rule regarding posting comments on another member's hunting report. Just plain common sense, courtesy and good manners. MJines did not post in contravention of that simple courtesy.
JPK
In regards to this post...I have nothing more to say about the lion thing...as stated...it was a while ago and we were neophytes in taking on the issue. We made mistakes, we evolved, we apologized, and we moved on. MJines (not I) is who brought it up.
I never mentioned MJines in this thread either...until he brought up the lion issue...championing me as a hypocrit.
In regards to Sam...I just disagree with you on some points.
I think a simple PM about the original post to Sam to see if he mis-wrote something was the way to handle it.
Obviously...Sam doesn't subscribe to your view of it either...just saying...
Trying (but sometimes hard with this group) to make this my last post. If Sam was not such a good fellow, friend, and stand up guy all around...would not have posted to begin with.
But...I do subscribe to your mantra (at least since the wrldhunter thing) that in regards to Hunting Reports...if you don't have anything nice to say...keep your fingers off the key-board or PM or start a seperate thread to talk about the issue in another forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
14 November 2014, 16:12
Bwana Bundukiquote:
Originally posted by MJines:
It is unfortunate for sure . . . whether the reaction was reasonable is an altogether different question. The fact is that Sam was asked a simple question in response to a rather unusual statement that he made, he then failed to answer the question other than to reiterate the original statement and then decided to get indignant and delete his post and leave in a huff. Regrettable but hardly justified in my view. If I made the same or a similar statement in a hunt report I would certainly expect someone to ask for an explanation . . . and I believe they would be entitled to an explanation. The tragedy is that in this instance we still do not have any credible explanation for the statement.
I asked the outfitter point blank what the deal was and got no response.
Jeff
15 November 2014, 08:43
jdollarnow there is a shocker. he had been so forthcoming on his earlier posts
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
25 November 2014, 02:42
larryshoresIt has been 17 days since we heard from Andrew. I thought he might attempt to clarify more. I guess I was wrong.
25 November 2014, 03:58
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
It has been 17 days since we heard from Andrew. I thought he might attempt to clarify more. I guess I was wrong.
To me the larger issue would be that Sam has not posted anywhere else on here since this thread.
Jim
25 November 2014, 06:21
Saeedquote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
It has been 17 days since we heard from Andrew. I thought he might attempt to clarify more. I guess I was wrong.
To me the larger issue would be that Sam has not posted anywhere else on here since this thread.
Jim
Does that means we have to only follow what one member wants?
25 November 2014, 06:31
Beretta682ESam leaving AR is a serious loss. Sam was a gentleman, attended the AR dinners at DSC, was an expert on double rifles and had bought enough doubles to be a sharp consumer advocate for a very expensive discretionary purchase.
I would hate for the rest of AR to become like the political forum.
A little civility would help this forum. Not regulated or moderated civility but just basic civil behavior by participants.
Mike
25 November 2014, 07:14
larryshoresquote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
It has been 17 days since we heard from Andrew. I thought he might attempt to clarify more. I guess I was wrong.
To me the larger issue would be that Sam has not posted anywhere else on here since this thread.
Jim
I agree. I hope Sam returns.
25 November 2014, 08:07
Philip A.quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I would hate for the rest of AR to become like the political forum.
A little civility would help this forum. Not regulated or moderated civility but just basic civil behavior by participants.
Mike
Fully agree with that.
Too many threads turn into pissing contests, with some of the parties roaming around the forum trying to settle personal scores on other threads than the original. Quite pathetic, I must say.
Philip
25 November 2014, 08:07
Saeedquote:
Not regulated or moderated civility but just basic civil behavior by participants.
You hit the nail on the head my friend!
