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I mean really. What can be so arcane about shooting a tusked "tuskless" elephant that it can't be explained in a few words about how it was sanctioned or licensed? If it was legal, then say why it was legal and if otherwise, then you need to quit while you're behind. I'm more than willing to give Sam the benefit of the doubt(I truly believe he was told shooting that elephant was okay), but why make it so mysterious as to how he legally shot this elephant? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I agree with you Gato. I believe Sam to be innocent. The response by Andrew leaves me with more questions than answers. | |||
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When the original statement makes no sense on its face . . . when you cannot get a simple and straightforward explanation to a simple and straightforward question about the statement . . . when a thread is deleted in the face of questions . . . when the outfitter steps in and just muddies the water more . . . what are folks left to do other than draw inferences that may or may not be correct. At this point the only thing we know is that the original statement on its face is at odds with Zim regulations. If there was no issue, then a proper explanation at the outset would have avoided this whole donnybrook. Mike | |||
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Precisely! | |||
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I would not pay 10s of thousands of dollars to an outfit for a hunt if I feel I have to research what they tell me. I feel I am paying the outfitter and the PH to know all the rules and regulations (especially in a changing environment like Zim) and guide me accordingly. I will do due diligence prior to engaging their services, but once I vet them to pay them for a hunt, if they say shoot, I will shoot. | |||
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Andrew, all this post has done is confuse the issue and lead me to infer that something was not kosher with this hunt. You say that we should ask the Zim PH about this hunt, I agree. Please provide the PH's name and contact information and we'll do that. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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gatagoro,larry shores,Mjines,Fjold. You guys just don't get this whole picture. I said what I wanted to say already in my first post but it looks like you guys just don't want to understand this. I don't know about other areas but when you are hunting in this area where I hunt you are accompanied by a Government official(game scout) who makes sure that nothing illegal is being done on the hunt. You can really now stop wondering if there was something not kosher about this hunt. Sam shot an Elephant,Buffalo,Hippo and leopard he paid for it and that’s the end of my story. For any other queries please don’t hesitate to contact me at any time by phone or by email. For everyone else who is interested in an Elephant hunt in the future with us please be assured that you will be hunting with a professional Outfit who offers affordable Elephant hunting in a well-managed area. We offer Tuskless hunts and Trophy Elephant hunts. Our prices are of such that it allows the average guy to afford a great Elephant hunting experience. Do not expect big trophies but you can expect an exciting and adventurous hunt. Let us not pay any attention to all this negative comments but let’s enjoy those good hunting stories that people like Sam tells us on this site. I will not be active on this post anymore because I am starting a hunt today but feel free to contact me by email. I do get my emails on my phone while I am hunting and I will get back to you as soon as I can. Happy hunting Andrew | |||
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In all candor, that is a bullshit explanation. You have done Sam no favors with any of your posts. All your posts have done is reinforce the notion that something was not on the up and up. All you (or Sam) had to do was to explain how a tusked bull can be taken under a tuskless license. You have both failed miserably in that regard. To suggest that it all comes down to the game scout, good grief man do you think everyone on this forum is an idiot. The game scout, seriously. In fact, referring to the game scout just heightens my suspicions of something being amiss. Mike | |||
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Andrew has certainly raised more suspicions to me. His comments are insulting to the experience and intelligence of the members here. | |||
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If that is the two choices and the picture posted is an example I hope the hunt was greatly discounted. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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"...All you (or Sam) had to do was to explain how a tusked bull can be taken under a tuskless license..." We are wondering why is the above has not been answered. IF that is what had happened. I have not read the original hunt report Sam posted, but from what is being posted I gather this is the question raised by his report. | |||
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Saeed thanks for asking a question like a real gentlemen will do. I will give you my explanation in full detail now. Sam shot this Elephant literally inside the village and only a couple hundred yards from the primary school. We had to do something about this herd of Elephants who were causing a lot of damage in the village. This Elephant was the only one we could shoot in the herd as all the others were cows with calves. We decided that instead of Sam shooting another Elephant we will sacrifice the tuskless licence for this Elephant. I hope this make sense and I hope you understand why Sam and I don't want to talk about this on this site but there you have it now you can do with it what you want. | |||
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So , now you are saying it was a PAC???? This then raises more questions for me. Nick | |||
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I believe that under Zim law only a Zim citizen may kill a problem elephant or PAC. Moreover, no matter what, swapping a tusked elephant, bull or cow, for a tuskless one for which a permit was issued is a problem, or so it has been explained to me. If the operator gave Sam a bull quota to deal with an elephant causing problems for the locals it could be kosher. [An elephant causing problems is not a PAC when shot under a bull quota, the fact that it was causing problems for the locals is coincidental, permit wise, or so it has been explained to me.]  Free 500grains | |||
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Right you are. My understanding is that only licensed PH's can kill PAC animals in Zim. | |||
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Nick, You asked for an explanation I just gave you the exact reason why this particular animal was shot and why Sam said what he said. What is your intention here do you want to go out of your way to find something wrong. Well this is what happened and why do why do you have all this suspicion of something that is wrong???? Can you not see the positive things and the good things that came out of this hunt.There is no PAC Elephant hunts in Zimbabwe. But just let me know do you understand perfectly what I said because I don't want any misunderstanding here or do you want me to explain to you again what happened? Yes you are right clients can not hunt P.A.C Elephants in Zimbabwe. We did not sell a P.A.C Elephant hunt to Sam. Things happen sometimes that you don't expect and then action should be taken and decisions should be taken at the time. All ended well the client was happy and the community was happy the tuskless cow that we did not shoot at the end of the day was happy. So what the hell guys just let this go now I gave you the explanation and now more suspicion and questions. | |||
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Andrew, Thank you for your answer. Now another question, is it allowable under Zimbabwe regulations to swap a tuskless license for a problem animal, as I understand that is the whole reason this elephant was shot? | |||
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What turned into a simple question has now turned otherwise. Andrew, there is no doubt in my mind that this hunt was not "kosher". Your inability to answer a straight forward question erases any doubt in my mind. Unfortunately for you the gentlemen participating in this thread have collectively a lot of time on the ground hunting in Zim. The presence of a game scout lending credence to your tale means exactly dick. A tuskless license cannot be used on a PAC animal. A client cannot shoot a PAC animal. So now what? You or your PH put a good guy put a good guy in a bad position. Jeff | |||
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Just so everyone understands this or alternatively someone who knows better can correct me: a problem elephant may be killed by a non-Zim client if it is shot under quota. The fact that the elephant was a problem is irrelevant, merely coincidental. However, if a problem elephant is shot "only" because it was a problem, and not under hunting quota, it must be killed by a Zim citizen. This is how it was explained to me (when I killed a bull in Omay South that happened to be raiding villagers' tobacco and pumpkin fields, which was merely coincidental to us since we were hunting for a bull regardless.) I hope that the operator provided Sam a bull quota, since, as I understand it, that is the only way that this hunt was within the law. "The ends justify the means," aka "Everyone ended up happy," is no defense to breaking the law. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I suspect this is probably more along the lines of what happened. I doubt he shot a tusked Ele under a proper tuskless permit. It was probably ration, PAC, or otherwise and he just happened to be on a "tuskless hunt". I know from a few Zim ph's that there are accommodations within some areas to shoot non-export bulls under certain circumstances, I am inclined to think this is what happened but the ph didn't feel the need to go into the reasoning behind his statement. And why would he? If he is operating legally under the rules set forth for the area, he has no reason to justify his actions to the client. It is only when the hunt report is posted here that we get curious about the rules. | |||
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A prime example of why in over 6 hunts I've never and will never post a hunting report on AR. | |||
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It started with a harmless question. | |||
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May be we should do like another website on the Net. Posters are NOT allowed to post anything but praise towards a hunt report. Well, it isn't going to happen here. AR is an open, international, forum for the sharing ANY hunting and shooting related stories. If you feel you do not wish to participate, that is your choice, and you are very welcome to it. Some of us like to share our hunts with our fellow hunters - just like many of us like to read hunt reports of our fellow members. We enjoy them and learn from them. This one is a perfect example of what I mean. Someone posted a report that raised some legitimate questions, those questions were not answered, but made worse by deleting the whole report. The outfitter who conducted this hunt posted some information, and left some out. Is it a wonder why people are still asking what had happened? None of us now all the rules and regulations in Zimbabwe - most likely nothing illegal was done - although it would appear that it has because of what is left out. | |||
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A prime example of why in over 40 years of poaching and white collar criminal activity I never post my exploits on AR. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Forrest, as always, you crack me up!  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Saeed, I think the hunt report section is different. It really isn't (or shouldn't) be part of the general discussion area. That is what the AHF is for. My opinion, read only on hunt reports. Anything else and it turns into a conflagration of epic proportions, just like this has. People post hunt reports for multiple reasons. One might be gratification/approval from other members. Another, and why I read it, is to assess providers and how they interact with clients and the quality of the service provided. I guess, if what you are looking for is a bit of controversy and entertainment, leave it as is. But that wouldn't be Your reason now would it?  Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Steve, AR has always been an open forum, and will always remain the same. The members will discuss whatever is posted - I don't get involved apart from expressing my own opinion just like any member of AR. The only concern I have is that hunters go and hunt, and enjoy their hunts, and not have to worry about breaking any laws. For that they have to rely on the knowledge of the people they hunt with, and hopefully put their trust in. Isn't it proper for those who read something which seems not to be right, ask questions about it? Would it not have been much easier if the original poster answered these questions rather than delete his report? I don't look for any controversy, and I certainly look for some entertainment. May be you and your friends who have set up that website should start a Hunt Report section, and run it anyway you wish? | |||
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It seems there are four participants involved in this hunt. 1. Hunter 2. Agent 3. Outfitter 4. PH The hunter and the agent are members and we have turned on our own like a school of sharks. Yes, the original question was pretty harmless except it nicked the skin, drew blood and here we are with one or two members scrambling for their membership survival. Will they survive or will we dismember them and loose their wisdom/participation forever. Everyone is quoting laws that we think we know. Do we know all the exceptions that the various stakeholders (Forestry, RDC's, Parks, Campfire, District officials, etc.) can claim to legitimize an action? While on the ground if there is a question it seems the Outfitter/PH is the one to bear the majority of the responsibility with the hunter and agent a distant second. Yet we jump on the bandwagon and question the hunter/agent like they are on trial for their lives. It seems like they may not know all the rules and laws but are fighting for survival with everyone smelling blood. There probably wasn't anything done that was wrong. In a place like Zimbabwe do you think it is possible for an official to make an exception to a rule? Why can't we be gentlemen and celebrate and be happy for a guy who just had the hunt of a lifetime? | |||
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Saeed, "My friends and I" didn't set up a website. We participated in a forum that failed. It seems to me you really don't care what members feel as long as they agree with you. Take care, wish you well Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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What a silly and childish answer! Agrees with me on what? Nothing here has anything to do with me. It relates to what had happened on an elephant hunt - in which I was not involved! Are you going to go back to your old behavior? When you had another ID you logged in with?? | |||
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Below is a post on the matter of PAC elephants posted by a Zimbabwe citizen in the hunting industry: zimFrosty one of us Picture of zimFrosty posted 25 January 2011 14:21 Hide Post Folks PAC hunts in Zimbabwe can only be undertaken by Zimbabwean Residents. Some operators mistakenly advertise Management Hunts as PAC and incorrectly offer them as such. PAC animals are generally taken by , as a previous poster said, apprentice Hunters who need a certain number of certain species to be able to obtain their licences. This is a long standing way for Appies to get enough experience to get to profficiency.In addition, as Buzz correctly points out, there were a number of Trophy elephants taken under this guise in the past by dodgy operators, who in some cases, for a few extra dollars would "convert" The PAC animal to an exportable trophy. Offering true PAC animals to foreign clients in Zimbabwe is Illegal .Some PHs may let foreign clients shoot PAC animals and obtain a few pics etc, however please please be aware that it could land you in hot water with the authorities if they find out. www.sidudhlasafaris.com Posts: 459 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 11 May 2010 | |||
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An answer to your last question first: Uh, gee, because he wrote of something a majority of those with experience believe to be irregular. A simple question was raised. That question remains unanswered. In fact, replies beating around the bush and failing to actually answer the question have only raised other questions. Some have cited their understanding of the relevant Zim law, I am one. We have all asked for clarification from those who would know, like Zim operators or PH's. We have received at least one or two clarifications. More would be welcome by me and most likely by all. If the op or booking agent have a legitimate answer to the legitimate question they are LONG overdue posting it. I hope Sam Rose was not mislead, I hope his hunt was fully within the rules. I know in his shoes I have relied on outfitters and operators and PH's and guides to ensure everything is within the law. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I agree. Something was written that seems to be irregular. Questions were raised and those questions weren't answered in a very discerning way. Thus leading to more questions. Would it be good to get those answers? Yes. Is there a way that questions can be answered without embarrassing a member into quitting a forum and dumping on perhaps the happiest moment of his hunting life? Could a PM be sent so the OP has a chance to correct an embarrassing post? (quoting something he doesn't fully understand) Could the question be asked under "Africa Big Game Hunting" or the "Africa - Reference and Information" forums thus eliminating embarrassment? Would PH's/Outfitters be more willing to answer generalized questions whereby it doesn't look like they are slamming their competition on a hunting report? I too rely on the PH/Outfitter for knowing the rules and keeping me out of trouble. I too would like to know the answer that was originally raised. But at the point of embarrassing the hunter or hurting the agents business, no. | |||
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I see no reason for the hunter to be embarrassed if he was following the lead of his PH and booking agent, both of which were present. I do find Sam Rose's departure a little odd, maybe even inferring, hopefully unfairly, knowing disregard. As for the booking agent or operator, if what transpired was legit, post up what transpired to make it legit and why. If it wasn't legit then the more damage done to their businesses the better for their participation in something not fully above board. Public and open is better here, and, with the full benefit of hindsight, I like your suggestion of a post in one of the other forums asking a question the answer to which would provide the answer sought here. If the answer pointed to an issue, then a PM might well be the best course of action. But that is relying on a lot of hindsight. Asking a simple and what ought to be innocuous question shouldn't lead to where we are. Question posed: I would like to hear more about the statement quoted above. I have never heard that tusk size makes a bull elephant huntable as a tuskless. If you can elaborate on that or perhaps one of the Zim PHs can weigh in. Maybe it is an area specific thing. Even ration elephant are generally tusked cows. Just trying to understand the concept. Appropriate response from Sam Rose: Hmm, I'm not sure I can elaborate, I followed the lead of the PH and the booking agent, who were both present. I will ask.... Or: Beats the heck out of me, hey, I was enjoying the hunt of my life and following the lead of the PH and booking agent... They told me, "That's the one," and I took it from there... Or maybe even answer the question if he knew enough... JPK Free 500grains | |||
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People that hunt DG in Africa tend to be successful in life.(hence the money to hunt DG in Africa) A good portion of successful people tend to be Type A personalities. Embarrassment doesn't come easily to most type A's or most of us. There are however people that don't fit this general stereotype. Could the OP be a type B,C,D? Would a sane individual post a hunting report that they knew to be illegal? Doubtfully. Would they post a hunting report where they didn't understand all the legal/hunting terms? This might be more likely. If a person can't answer questions they may become embarrassed in front of their peers. On the internet it may be easier to leave than face ridicule. Regarding the agent. I agree, he should be held to a higher standard. Agents that I know don't necessarily know all the laws of all the countries they book in. They do know some. They do try to book with reputable outfitters and rely on the outfitter to know the laws. If the agent is with the hunter and outfitter, the agent is going to defer to the outfitter on local issues most of the time since that is the outfitters area of expertise. I don't necessarily fault the agent in this case for anything unless he knew in advance that something was wrong. From what I know the agent has a good reputation as an outfitter in his country so I doubt this was the case. I agree with you and have mentioned it previously. The first question was pretty harmless. I don't fault the person who asked the question at all. The problem wasn't really the first question. It was the rest of us that smelled that one drop of blood and slowly joined in with all of our knowledge and condescending nature. I do not know the OP or the agent. As far as I know I have never communicated with either of them even on a thread. Could the OP have done a better job of dealing with the situation. Certainly. Could the agent have done a better job of dealing with the situation. Certainly. This however didn't happen. There have been other hunting reports in the past where the OP didn't have the fortitude to deal with our onslaught. How many great hunting reports have been lost or will be lost in the future because the hunter didn't want to possibly deal with the grief and backwash? I agree. Sunlight kills germs. Are hunting reports the place to kill germs? Possibly. There are fewer hunting reports these days. Is that what we want? In 2015 will we all be swooning over Saeed's hunting report since it is the only one that will be posted! (Yes, sarcasm, but that seems the way we are heading.) Where I truly feel bad is this. Here is a fellow hunter who had the hunt of his life.....He was truly excited and happy about the hunt.....He wanted to share his joy with us his friends......He is gone forever. | |||
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If the answer is that the OP was on a tuskless hunt but the outfitter gave him a quota bull because it was causing trouble in the village, why not just come out and say that? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I posted a hunting report some months ago and recieved more than one negative PM In hind site I decided piss on all that and in the future will no longer post a report. I hunt for myself anyway......nobody's pat on the back required ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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That does not even vaguely resemble the original explanation. The original explanation, that the bull had small tusks and therefore could be taken on a tuskless license, generated my initial question. No one is trying to rain on anyone's parade but if someone says something bordering on the nonsensical then they should not get their hackles up if someone else says, "say what?" Mike | |||
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Exactly! | |||
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As do I and probably many of the hunters who post here. Posting a hunt report is not to garner "a pat on the back" for most of us. If one does post expecting to receive praise or a "pat on the back" then perhaps that is why some that do post are disappointed, get all prickly and then threaten not to post again!! I enjoy seeing other hunt reports and may comment on a good animal or a good hunt but that is really a comment on the animal or the hunt itself and all involved in it, not just the hunter/s. I have posted the odd hunt report but not for praise or admiration, just for the information and interest other members may get from it. There could well be adverse or negative comments made, possibly through misunderstanding or different perception but I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over that. We are all different and do things differently and freedom of thought and speech is something we all should treasure and not cocoon ourselves away from. | |||
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