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I enjoy writing hunt reports. I get to relive the hunt, which is damn good fun. I have received pats on the back and have never received a negative comment or PM, though one ass hat made a derogatory comment regarding one or two trophies a couple of years after that particular hunt report was posted. If I did receive a negative comment I would be curious regarding the motivation of the member making the negative comment. [I knew the ugly motivation of the ass hat who made the one several years later, and it was basic ad hominem attack made when loosing an argument on the facts.] BTW, MJines question DOES NOT constitute a negative comment! JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Saeed, moderators, This one's not helping any of us. Can it be deleted now? | |||
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It would be a big loss to AR if Sam stopped posting here. I have personally visited Sam, shot & hunted with him. He is a very knowledgeable guy and very humble too. Hang in there my friend. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Andrew, I am not trying to "rain on anyone's parade" here. Certainly I am not trying to bag either yourself or Sam out at all. I am concerned with what Sam wrote in his hunt report re small tusks fitting under Tuskless guise. I am further more concerned that you have now said that " something had to be done"as the ele were next to the Primary school. As there were no Tuskless and the cows had dependant calves this small bull was shot. The comments you have made certainly imply that this was a Problem Animal Cull, a PAC. If so I do not believe it was carried out as per the Zim. Rules. It's clear to me that Sam was told he could shoot it and he did, thinking it was ok as a Tuskless, and he reported it as this in his report. Let this be a lesson to all whom go to ZIm on non trophy ele hunts. Understand what's permitted so you don't fall foul. That's all I want to state out of this . Just so you know, I have done 4 Tuskless and one ele ration hunt in Zim. I am confident I understand the rules, and that my outfitter is play's by the rules. Cheers Nick | |||
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Too late now. I am certain Sam did not do anything wrong. If - and that is a very big IF - anything wrong was done, it was according to the instructions of his PH. | |||
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________________________________________________ Ted, I greatly enjoyed your report (I think it was the Eastern Cape one?). To hell will a few negative bodies! I'll bet there were more positive responses than negative. Please do post your next hunt. The rest of us appreciated it. JCHB | |||
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$10 says this is the case. That said, the whole discussion here illustrates one very good reason for knowing exactly what is going on with your hunt (certainly before posting a report). At the very least it prevents one from even LOOKING like they have done something illegal. Practically speaking though, it's really easy to imagine a hunter going on a tuskless hunt and the PH has a hard time finding a tuskless in the area. Given that, the PH (who obviously wants a trophy fee) decides to use ration quota and wisely chooses an old dry cow with very small tusks. The client without too much experience could very easily go home thinking the "tusks were small enough". It's also easy to imagine a "problem" bull/cow starting to wreak havoc while a client is on a tuskless hunt. At that point, I would guess whatever gov't body in charge might request that, rather than declare a PAC, the elephant be taken from ration quota. Possible? If the bull/cow has small or no tusks, again the client could easily go home thinking he had taken either a PAC, ration, or tuskless animal. I seem to recall even PHs who advertise hunts having been flexible (obviously when they should not be) with this terminology. Is it any surprise that a client would be? On a tuskless hunt, when the PH (who knows there is ration quota, for example) says "Shoot that small tusked cow!", are many of us going to ask him to explain the legalities as the animal slips away. Assuming one has booked with a reputable PH, I imagine doing so will get you a stern lecture about trust! He is covering your butt with a rifle....and you are going to ask him to quote parks regs and tell you which quota the animal is coming from? Don't think so. Again however, a conscientious hunter would and should probably ask after the fact if only to satisfy his/her own curiosity...and certainly before posting a report. | |||
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I posted a thread about the negative PM's I received. Before my trip I had no idea there was a couple "hunters" out there who would disaprove of the way I went about my first African safari.....they did mention how to "do it right" the next time To me it was a vacation and I was proud to have taken my wife on our 25th wedding aniverserary to a SA lodge style PG safari.....some thought otherwise.....but then again there are at least 3 or 4 hear that have called my wife of now 26 years a tramp, whore and a slut....go figure I just returned from a great get together with some of my very best friends from the Western states I enjoyed my Mule Deer hunt with them and it was a very successful trip (I killed my first ever Mule deer with the help of 3 great people)..... I will however not post one single picture. This forum is a dying animal....sad ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Ted don't let a few people stop you from posting here with their negative comments. Even though some may disagree with the animal you took, or where you took it, just remember, none of them spent one thin dime on your safari, and because of that their talk is just that "TALK". Now as to the PM calling your wife names,that is, in my opinion, uncalled for, and is not "FREE SPEECH" but slander, and anyone who would do such a thing needs a good old fashioned TEXAS ass kicking! You and I both know anyone who posts such trash would never say those things to your face, for fear of most likely loosing some teeth! Just put idiots like that on IGNORE, and block their PMs as well. and tell the rest of us about your hunt! LORD KNOWS I have had some real negative darts thrown at me over the years, I admit some deserved and but most simple misunderstandings of my dumb way of writing. At one time I got very discouraged and tried to stay away, but received so many PM and e-mails over the next couple of months, asking for information that it was easier to answer them on line than post the same answers to 30 people with the same question. I just got several darts for coming back which I chose to simply disregard, and leave them to their opinions. Hang in there all hunters are needed in our fight for our right to hunting and shooting, and the negative comments are the ammo used by the antis against us all. ..................Good hunting!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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99% of my customers don't post hunt reports here anymore because AR FORUM has hit rock bottom...I can't blame them...  | |||
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100 % Mac. Ted , you did do it right the first time. You and your wife had a great time with good people and hunted some great animals. Don't worry about what the egoistic dick measurers think. An inferiority complex is more than likely the problem there. The anti hunters love guys like these , the stereotype loud mouth , trash talking killer hunter with the IQ of an ice cube  As for the comments on your wife , well , take it whom it comes from -- 100 % pure trash -- hiding behind a computer. Unfortunately a forum like this hosts all types. | |||
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Been there myself!! ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Thing is gents, its the internet! There are wankers out there who are very brave when behind the computer but who would be very quite if they met you face to face. Why let it bother you. Someone has a go at me I tend to have a crack back. If it goes on and on I put them on the ignore list (but then sneak back to see what they are saying about me  )The one thing Saeed said to me when he offered me the moderator gig was "no censorship" . And I've never forgotten those words (I have locked the odd thread at times when it became a pissing contest by two members). This is a very open forum, one of the best and it takes a hell of a lot to be banned. I've seen other forums when threads get locked or deleted just because a mod doesn't like the topic! ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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What is that old saying? "With freedom comes responsibility" It seems we have some here who like the freedom, but do not want the responsibility. | |||
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I hope what Wendell and you suggest, the PH, without consulting either the hunter or the booking agent swapped a ration permit for a tuskless permit, which I suggested earlier as well, is true. However, the booking agent - who was present, whose duty it is to keep things square for his client, who ought to question a PH about a change in plan as significant as swapping a bull for a tuskless, and so who ought to know how a tusked bull got shot in lieu of a tuskless and how it was legal - failed to provide any explanation other than "everyone ended up happy" and managed to muddy the waters further doing it. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Since when has it been a good idea to rely on the explanation of an agent? Seriously, I am a bit surprised the PH didn't instinctively explain to the client what happened the minute the elephant was down. Most I know would have almost instinctively said, "Good shooting...that came off ration quota" or "Good shot, we saved the trouble of someone declaring a PAC animal by shooting that for rations". I guess it could be a matter of the client never asking and the PH realizing the client didn't really care either way. I am not advocating a lynch mob just yet, but do we know who the actual PH was here? I am not innately suspicious but am noticing a pretty deafening silence from most Zim PH posters here | |||
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Wouldn't it have been even better had the PH announced the alternative possibility of "Plan B" should there be difficulty in finding a tuskless in the intended "Plan A" at the time of booking or at worse, at the beginning of the hunt? | |||
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Yes, at the beginning of the hunt if he knew that ration quota existed. When booking? I don't think so because I can't imagine a client saying "A ration bull? NO WAY, I paid for a tuskless cow!" It is easy to imagine the PH being maybe a bit surprised by the lack of tuskless cows so not even considering mentioning it until later in the hunt. It's also easy to imagine a PH simply expecting his client to trust him when he says "Shoot that one" and expect the client to assume that it is legit when following instructions. Better to lay it all out pre-hunt? Sure. Necessary? I am not at all sure of that. Certainly wise to explain it all after the fact so the client doesn't generate confusion later as has happened here. | |||
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Which frankly, is exactly what is happenings on this thread. There are only two posters that were there. One deleted all his posts and the other's posts are confusing. Every other post is opinion and theory. No offense, but both are worth squat. As are my posts. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I like to read what Sam has to post. He has a huge wealth of knowledge. As do many contributors here, and I have learned a great deal. Sam has also done a lot of good research that helps in myt double rifle reloading decision making, along with Michael as well. I also really enjoy reading hunt reports. I hope both Sam's posts and hunt reports continue and are received and reviewed in an gentlemanly fashion. Best wishes, Chris DRSS | |||
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Jim Aren't Andrew's posts deliberately vague and confusing thus prompting, I might even venture encouraging speculation and imagination? Why not just come out and say it, thus nipping speculation and imagination in the bud. Unless Andrew doesn't know either...then he should have just kept silent. Now there is much speculation and imagination especially after the original poster has left the building after deleting his posts. Personally if my PH says I can shoot an animal I'm going to shoot it so I don't think Sam did anything wrong. | |||
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Andrew's posts were a bit confusing, on that I agree. That said I wasn't there so I'm not speculating on this hunt. As far as what I bolded, I am the one pulling the trigger on a hunt so I am also the one with the final responsibility. I vet (sp?) those I hunt with very closely anymore and trust their opinions and knowledge of local laws. I also discuss hunt expectation, firearm carry techniques, safety placement on all rifles in camp, and trophy goals (at least as far as the experience and maturity of game being more important than inches). I know, I sound anal but it prevents a tense moment where I might question the Ph's call on a shot. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Yes vetting those who you hunt with is very wise but at some point you have to put trust in the one that is supposed to know. Not trying to argue with you Jim, I fact we are in agreement  . I'm not speculating on this hunt either. | |||
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I like Sam and have enjoyed PM'ing him on occasion with questions which he is most qualified and gracious to answer. I don't believe he would ever have committed an intentional error and probably didn't commit an unintentional one in the present case. I enjoy posting my hunt reports and will continue to do so. I would suggest if anyone had a negative comment then direct it to my face at DSC and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. That's how I conduct myself and have no time for shitless cowards. You can find me at CMS, Chifuti, J.P. Klienhans and spending time with Retreever and Pierre and Son at Pierre von Tonder's booth. Dutch | |||
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Well, we are into our 4th page, and we still do not have a correct answer. Which goes to prove a point. When something goes wrong - or at least misunderstood from a post - a correction can go a long way to sort it it out. Leaving it hanging is only going to let people reach their own conclusions. | |||
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Ha, Ha, nice subtle joke!! I love it We all know that any attempt at explanation by the OP would have been rewarded with at least 10 pages by the resident trolls.  | |||
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I was not there either and too...will not speculate. I do know Sam personally and can vouch for his quality of character...good fellow he. The rest of Jim's post goes for me as well. I know the folks I hunt with in Africa...VERY well...and trust them completely...would NOT have it any other way. I am afraid that the way this whole matter was handled...that it cost AR some good members...ones who served as good reference and experience for many of the things AR is or at least was...known for. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No one here did anything or wrote anything (in the open, don't know about PM's) that should have caused anyone to leave. A simple, polite, reasonable and direct question was asked. That is no rational reason to leave. A bunch of misdirection was provided in lieu of an answer, and that has proven unhelpful to the op and to his booking agent. But that is "friendly fire." The departure and the misdirection in lieu of an answer definitely cause speculation, and should. As any irrational reaction to a polite, reasonable and direct question ought to. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I don't really have a dog in this fight...just happen to be friends with Sam. And...he has been a great friend at that. Regardless of how you see it JPK...it does not change the outcome. I tend to see this issue similar to how Steve Ahrenberg does. FWIW.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yup!! Too high a price to pay for the definition of a Tuskless and some entertainment for the bored. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Lane, surely the irony of the foregoing is not lost on you considering some of the prior posts of certain forum members publicly calling out other members for hunt reports that included pictures of so-called young lions. Mike | |||
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A lost contributor is a lost contributor whether it's over a Lion report or an Elephant report. I would sure hate to see 27 pages of the Terminal Bullet information thread also end up with "deleted" in 40% of it. Just sayin' ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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It is unfortunate for sure . . . whether the reaction was reasonable is an altogether different question. The fact is that Sam was asked a simple question in response to a rather unusual statement that he made, he then failed to answer the question other than to reiterate the original statement and then decided to get indignant and delete his post and leave in a huff. Regrettable but hardly justified in my view. If I made the same or a similar statement in a hunt report I would certainly expect someone to ask for an explanation . . . and I believe they would be entitled to an explanation. The tragedy is that in this instance we still do not have any credible explanation for the statement. Mike | |||
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Agreed ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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There is NO comparison Mike. The plight of the lion continues to this day to be real concern. The newest study I have seen from Zambia continues to recommend closure of lion in that country for lack of mature males. I will post it in the lion forum. Me stating that his lion was too young to shoot could NOT legally hurt him in anyway either...the major point here. That said...I and Aaron and others learned a lot from that experience and we EVOLVED to handle it differently by starting a thread in a different forum. And again...I have no dog in this fight...but AR looses in the end. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Precisely. "...And again...I have no dog in this fight...but AR looses in the end..." All of us in the hunting community loose, if the truth is NOT put out for others to avoid the same mistake! | |||
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You're right, there is no comparison. MJines asks a simple, polite, direct question regarding a confusing comment by the op. You piss on a guy's trophy.... Not comparable at all. The op in this case is at no meaningful risk of legal trouble, and either an explanation or an "I don't know, I relied on the PH and the booking agent who were both there" would have sufficed. Moreover, while the Zim elephant population isn't in any trouble, the f'in US Gov't claims it is, and crap like the worst case inference of what might have transpired on the op's hunt is why. Worse yet, the op and his agent's actions and words lead right to the worst case inference. BTW way, think the f'in PH didn't tell the guy to shoot the lion? You pissed on the wrong guy! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK........ please demonstrate how the OP is in no "meaningful risk of legal trouble" in your so knowledgeable opinion. Just lay it out there with your vast wealth of US legal knowledge so that all of us will know how safe it is. Thank you. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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I could do that, but it is so friggin' obvious I'll let you do it yourself. Yes, I am an attorney, yes I am familiar with the Lacey Act... JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Still VERY few words from either A) The booking agent B) The PH or C) The General PH community. I find this very interesting. | |||
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