I admit that I like to measure mine, just to know. No record book entries or things like that for me.

I like to know I got a 58 inch kudu or what ever. Just for my own info.

Nothing wrong with measuring, and entering, your trophies.

Trouble starts when size becomes the holy grail, like SCI has glorified it.

One thing that seems to be missing from this thread is the respect for the animal that was killed. In Sep while sitting around a mopane campfire one of the other clients had shot a very old and decrepit warthog. Another client was teasing him mercilessly about the animal. After a while of this, the PH of the hunter who killed the wart hog spoke up. He talked about having respect for the animal whose life was just taken.

Too often, IMO, hunters get caught up with the fantastic shot they made, the remarkable performance of their handloads, size of the horns, etc.

I always take a moment to pay respect to the animal, even if it is not the trophy I thought it might be.

A very large and magnificent elephant died at the hands of the OP, and all he is concerned about is that the animal's tusks were a few pounds short of what he wanted.

Having respect for your quarry and realizing that you have taken a specific animal's life is very much a part of all my hunting experiences. Without that respect, I don't think I could call myself a hunter, only a killer.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
One thing that seems to be missing from this thread is the respect for the animal that was killed. In Sep while sitting around a mopane campfire one of the other clients had shot a very old and decrepit warthog. Another client was teasing him mercilessly about the animal. After a while of this, the PH of the hunter who killed the wart hog spoke up. He talked about having respect for the animal whose life was just taken.

Too often, IMO, hunters get caught up with the fantastic shot they made, the remarkable performance of their handloads, size of the horns, etc.

I always take a moment to pay respect to the animal, even if it is not the trophy I thought it might be.

A very large and magnificent elephant died at the hands of the OP, and all he is concerned about is that the animal's tusks were a few pounds short of what he wanted.

Having respect for your quarry and realizing that you have taken a specific animal's life is very much a part of all my hunting experiences. Without that respect, I don't think I could call myself a hunter, only a killer.

BH63

BH63,

Great point there. I too have a huge amount of respect for the lives I take when hunting. I never forget the fact that this animal wanted nothing more than to carry on.

I believe there is a current generation of hunters out there that have forgotten this. There is this new mentality of only killing it, taking its picture and moving along to the next kill.

I've been in some very spirited debates here and ever worse over on 24HR about it. I think it's shallow and disrespectful to kill an animal and only put the value of that life equal to a few megapixels on a camera card.

I guess my father beat some values into me growing up. These are MY values. What someone else does is their business.

Steve

Interesting read and lots of criticism - some warranted and some not. I'll be the devil's advocate.

If my math is right, the smaller tusk was 28% smaller than the target weight of 65lbs and 33% smaller than the target weight of 70lbs. Regardless of the nerve, that's way off. I've hunted a little, including elephant, and I've been around lots of elephant hunters. I've never heard of any seasoned elephant PH missing it by 30%, plus or minus.

If your PH called a lord derby eland as a 50 incher, told you to shoot it, and it turned out to be 36 inches, is that "just hunting", "you pulled the trigger", "quit whining", etc? What about a 40 inch mountain nyala that ends up being 29? A 30 inch bongo the tapes out at 22 inches? If my math is right, all of those are 28% differences.

Hunts for the biggest and rarest are, by far, the most expensive. If someone claims to be a professional elephant hunter, marketing hunts for 70lbs elephants, and getting $79k for such a hunt, then they should be able to field judge game a lot closer than 30% of the actual weight, in my humble opinion. I feel like a lot of the "that's just hunting" justification goes away when you fork over the better part of $100k for a one off hunt.

Personally, if I'd paid $79k for a premium trophy elephant hunt, was then shown a "65 x 65 elephant", advised to shoot it, and it ultimately weighed out at 56 x 47, I think I'd be a little ticked as well. Now, I'd probably keep it to myself, but I'm sure I'd have mixed feelings, regret, consternation, etc.

And, while the tone of the original post comes off as size and weight of ivory mattering more than the hunt and the experience, you must admit that ivory weights are the common terminology in the elephant hunting world and big ivory is what moves the needle. Cull, ration, and such elephant hunting "experiences" do not bring anywhere close to $100k, but big ivory has, does, and will and it gets us all excited. If the original post just contained a pic of the elephant and the title, "Just came back from a good elephant hunt", everyone on here would be guessing the weights and asking about the weights. It's a common language and always will be, for better or worse, even more than the experience.

If your PH called a lord derby eland as a 50 incher, and it turned out to be 40 inches, I would suggest that your PH sucked and you need more time in the bush.

If the PH had agreed in writing to eat the trophy fee should he misjudge the trophy quality, then there would be no issue. But anyone who has ever hunted understands, there are no guarantees in the bush. If you make it bleed, you own it.

Deal with it... or not...

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If your PH called a lord derby eland as a 50 incher, and it turned out to be 40 inches, I would suggest that your PH sucked and you need more time in the bush.

If the PH had agreed in writing to eat the trophy fee should he misjudge the trophy quality, then there would be no issue. But anyone who has ever hunted understands, there are no guarantees in the bush. If you make it bleed, you own it.

Deal with it... or not...

Or pick up a hobby which you choose the outcome before the purchase.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing wrong with measuring, and entering, your trophies.

Trouble starts when size becomes the holy grail, like SCI has glorified it.

Steve,
You are absolutely correct, i.e., "Or pick up a hobby which you choose the outcome before the purchase."

That is exactly what AR member Scott Powell has admitted he is going to do next year when he goes to Utah at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch and shoots the elk he wants relative to what he can afford all behind a high fenced escape proof enclosure. Sad thing is, he and some of his ilk on AR actually believe that is hunting!

"Politicians, attorney's, and shooters of wildlife behind high fences. Take em all down to south Texas, put em inside a high fenced escape proof enclosure without their guns and let the rattlesnakes cull em out."

And what does an elk hunt in Utah have to do with the topic?? Jesus, you need to get of this high fence crusade and get a life.....

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Steve,
You are absolutely correct, i.e., "Or pick up a hobby which you choose the outcome before the purchase."

That is exactly what AR member Scott Powell has admitted he is going to do next year when he goes to Utah at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch and shoots the elk he wants relative to what he can afford all behind a high fenced escape proof enclosure. Sad thing is, he and some of his ilk on AR actually believe that is hunting!

"Politicians, attorney's, and shooters of wildlife behind high fences. Take em all down to south Texas, put em inside a high fenced escape proof enclosure without their guns and let the rattlesnakes cull em out."

Earl...stop being a F king idiot would you? Is it possible?....
You are being an asshole for the sole purpose of being an asshole.....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing wrong with measuring, and entering, your trophies.

Trouble starts when size becomes the holy grail, like SCI has glorified it.

Agree mate, its just not me. Maybe I'm not that competitive?

Sometimes Larry I've thought about running a tape over my water buff but in the end I just don't care.

I caught myself looking at my trophies from my trip with Saeed yesterday (I'm back home for awhile). I don't see them as a size. I see them as a memory. The stalk and shot of the wildebeest, the double on buff etc. Actually the photo's I've had framed up of the PH and crew, Saeed, Walter Don and everyone else makes me smile more than the heads on the wall.

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
I have hunters bring in the biggest buck they've ever killed and they are on top of the world. Then they get it scored or aged and it wasn't what they thought or what their buddies said it was. Their whole demeanor changes all because of a stupid number. Sad!

Which is why I've never measured any of my trophies. The trip, people I was with and the adventure is the real trophy.

The same for me. for me I rate my troophies according to experience. The better experience, the more I like the trophy

I have no African experience but have been in North American camps with guys like this, all hung up over numbers. It was never pleasant.

I can understand having a goal and passing an animal. But have no sympathy for anyone who pulls the trigger and then complains. Trophy hunting is more art than science.

I think it was Elgin Gates who wrote of trophy hunting..."Take what the Gods offer today, and leave your heart's desire for tomorrow".

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
I have no African experience but have been in North American camps with guys like this, all hung up over numbers. It was never pleasant.

I can understand having a goal and passing an animal. But have no sympathy for anyone who pulls the trigger and then complains. Trophy hunting is more art than science.

I think it was Elgin Gates who wrote of trophy hunting..."Take what the Gods offer today, and leave your heart's desire for tomorrow".

Wasn't Elgin Gates who was accused of making up the size of his kudu bull??

I remember a photo of him holding the horns on a position some people said was to hide the joining of two horns together.

I enjoyed reading his books.

Saeed: Honestly I have no idea. Like you I simply enjoyed reading his books.

Were there any trophy hunting shenanigans back then? Who knows? The guy certainly went to many places and shot trophy animals when access was not easy and few did it. He wrote well on the subject.

So I will toss him the benefit of the doubt and take it for the enjoyment it offered. Both his books, Trophy hunting in Africa and Trophy Hunting in Asia were enjoyable.

Sitting here in the truck waiting on a dog to stike a bear with another AR member. We are getting a good laugh at this thread. He killed a 415 on Monday and wants his wife a 450 but will settle for 445 or 446.

It may have been mentioned before, but I know it is just not "cool" to measure your trophies and state the size. However, have you ever seen a picture of a "big" croc that doesn't mentioned the length to the inch? What is the difference? Just seems odd.

Jim

The real way to measure a trophy is to take a kid hunting and look at the smile on their face with their harvest.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
The real way to measure a trophy is to take a kid hunting and look at the smile on their face with their harvest.

My moose steaks marinating are tonight's trophy. Last night it was ground deer tacos and goose grilled with bacon and water chestnuts after marinating in soy sauce/ginger/brown sugar.

I asked Ms AZW if she wanted fish from our Mexico trip this summer and she said, "Gosh, we need to save that...we are eating it too quickly."

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
Sitting here in the truck waiting on a dog to stike a bear with another AR member. We are getting a good laugh at this thread. He killed a 415 on Monday and wants his wife a 450 but will settle for 445 or 446.

While this is funny as hell, it does point out the absurdity of the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
I have hunters bring in the biggest buck they've ever killed and they are on top of the world. Then they get it scored or aged and it wasn't what they thought or what their buddies said it was. Their whole demeanor changes all because of a stupid number. Sad!

So true I seen horn hunters complain about the first deer, spiked killed by a 12 yoa because it wasn't rack buck.

Trophy hunting by some has taken the fun out of hunting for many.

Hunters have all too fast became a society ruled by Instant Gratification, with far too many feeling it is a "Contest" and the one with the "Highest" score wins.

I fear it will end up being the death of hunting in the end.

Everyone needs to remember that hunting is a privilege. A client and AR Member pointed out to me this week about how many young people do we all see hunting. Here in Eastern NC, most all of the young people hunt because there is not much else to do other than working on the farm, commercial fish and school. However, this is a rural area and hunting is part of the culture.
I had a father son today in the duck blind from Raleigh. The son was a senior at a 4A City School. I asked him how many kids at his school hunted and he said that he did not know of any. He also said that he did not tell other kids that he enjoyed hunting because it was looked down upon. All of us that have the means need to take more kids hunting. That is the future of our sport.

Each to their own
My first ele hunt went like that, first day 70+ one tusker according to my PH , we actually got really close and PH said it's at least 80 and I turned it down because it was too early in hunt and I would like two tusks ( I think I was rather inexperienced in that decision and till today I'm not regretting that decision)
So 15 days later I shot 40 lbs and I was happy for reason of getting 15 days of tracking and saw elephants every day and I finally understood a bit of what elephant hunting is all about
But that's just me...

sheepman is right. He did not get what he bought and paid for.

If the size is the most important aspect of the hunt, then you need to absolutely get this in writing in the contract.


Before shooting the animal, make sure the PH understands that if the animal does not meet the size you want, there will be no charge.

I'm not sure many PHs would want to take you on a hunt, unless you were hunting fenced animals that have been darted and measured prior to the hunt. JMO.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
One thing that seems to be missing from this thread is the respect for the animal that was killed. In Sep while sitting around a mopane campfire one of the other clients had shot a very old and decrepit warthog. Another client was teasing him mercilessly about the animal. After a while of this, the PH of the hunter who killed the wart hog spoke up. He talked about having respect for the animal whose life was just taken.

I would have told the person giving me grief about an old, decrepit warthog that "Old" is the trophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
I have hunters bring in the biggest buck they've ever killed and they are on top of the world. Then they get it scored or aged and it wasn't what they thought or what their buddies said it was. Their whole demeanor changes all because of a stupid number. Sad!

I blame shrinkage on my taxidermist.

You sound like a sophisticated, experienced hunter. Who pulled the trigger?

Been there, done that. Had a debate with PH about weight, actually spooked the bull. I shot the bull and his weight was lighter than expected. But, I pulled the trigger. I didn't have to.

And, I'm glad I did.

I think Sheepman needs to take up a new pastime.

Anyone hunting dangerous game who must have a certain size trophy and is pissed when he shoots something smaller, has only himself to blame. If killing a 70 lb bull was so damned important to sheepman, then he damned well should have had a good idea of his own what a 70 lb elephant looks like on the hoof.

The guy goes on one of the best hunts in the world, a trophy bull elephant hunt, he kills a nice bull and he dwells on everything that isn't as he thinks it should have been...

IDIOT!

Right now, I'd love to be going on a hunt to shoot a 58 lb bull.

I hunted and shot 2 elephants with my good friend Wayne Clark. I an not exactly certain what the ivory weighs nor do I care. Those experiences and the time he and I spent doing so will stay with me for a lifetime. When I look at those tusks that is what I think of, not the weight - that's what this is all about.

The rest of the story. Original telling not quite the way it happened.
This hunter had and was having issues with his hearing aids. But as the moment of truth arrived he didn't hear the PH say shoot because the P H hadn't had time to look at the tusks. The elephant was lying down at about 12 yards and the hunter shot it as soon as it got up all before the PH could see the tusks and did not tell him to shoot.

The hunter stayed at camp and had a great time after the harvest, so any regrets he has is on him. Koos Pienaar did not instruct him to shoot.

If what you say is true, the the client is an absolute lying total asshole problem of a client.

Always two sides to a story, if this is true then he needs to make a public apology to the PH and company

One thing I have seen happen repeatedly on forums, is people using them as a place to crucify operators. There is this overwhelming urge it seems by so many on forums to act like a shark feeding frenzy.

People have learned that they can go on a forum and complain and many jump on the wagon and trash the outfitter. The outfitter may or may not be an internet/forum person and is called out due to their lack of response......... as if they owe it to you.

They do not owe it to you. There are always two sides. Bear that in mind and always remember that not all of us live via our bloody iPhones and internet forums of any description.

There are times indeed when disreputable outfitters are taken to task on the internet. There are also times when good outfitters who do not play the internet game are trashed by clients.......... because they can.

Shit we see things go on for pages on here with nothing but the one side.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
One thing that seems to be missing from this thread is the respect for the animal that was killed. In Sep while sitting around a mopane campfire one of the other clients had shot a very old and decrepit warthog. Another client was teasing him mercilessly about the animal. After a while of this, the PH of the hunter who killed the wart hog spoke up. He talked about having respect for the animal whose life was just taken.

Too often, IMO, hunters get caught up with the fantastic shot they made, the remarkable performance of their handloads, size of the horns, etc.

I always take a moment to pay respect to the animal, even if it is not the trophy I thought it might be.

A very large and magnificent elephant died at the hands of the OP, and all he is concerned about is that the animal's tusks were a few pounds short of what he wanted.

Having respect for your quarry and realizing that you have taken a specific animal's life is very much a part of all my hunting experiences. Without that respect, I don't think I could call myself a hunter, only a killer.

BH63

I couldn't agree more.

Someone asked the question:
What is the difference between hunting and shooting ?
Well I believe the question has just been answered in this thread. Satisfactorily so!

The difference is:

I can shoot all year without actually hunting.

But, I would not like to be on a hunt for 3 weeks without shooting

quote:

Before shooting the animal, make sure the PH understands that if the animal does not meet the size you want, there will be no charge

Gulp.

I remember a couple of years back a noted PH here had his client shoot a 39.5 inch Sable when the client had specifically asked for over 40. The subsequent bitching and sulking totally ruined the remainder of the hunt. I saw the trophy and it was a beautiful heavy horned specimen that looked 40 to me.