The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Hunting Reports - Africa Elephant Hunt Gone Wrong!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Elephant Hunt Gone Wrong! | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Note to HuntAfrica Namibia, in addition to the OP, the above poster is probably one you don't want to hassle with either. | |||
|
| Moderator |
George, I don't hunt Africa anymore due to bullshit pulled by some outfitters and PHs (along with dip & pack shops and freight forwarders). Once someone mentions that they have a "policy" of pre-paid trophy fees on DG, the client should mention their "policy" of 'no fucking way', AND insist on the terms of the hunt being spelled out in writing. I guarantee you that this outfit had some sort of brochure and/or booking sheet which laid out what is included and what isn't. In Zimbabwe, that used to be considered the contract. It's one thing to offer a quality hunting experience but if an outfit accepts a booking for trophy animals of a certain quality, that should be noted somewhere. The PH wasn't off a bit, he was off by a lot. Too many outfits look upon clients as sheep to be fleeced. George  | |||
|
| new member |
George S The PH said 65 pounds and got me up on the sticks. Your question succinctly gets us to the heart of the issue. You are absolutely right. I agreed to a stupid contract. I realize that nothing can be done at this point. As I said at the beginning of my post, this was just meant as a cautionary note to others, nothing more, nothing less. The general tone of this discussion just shows that no good deed shall go unpunished! | |||
|
One of Us |
Seems to me you simply wish to extract your pound of flesh. As all these things go, there are three sides. We have one. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| one of us |
I understand what you are saying George but if it gets as cold as writing a contract for what you might shoot then I'll stay home.I go to Africa to hunt with outfitters I think of as friends.I might be a fool in thinking that way but I will take the chance.I would rather hunt fenced ranch with an outfitter who is nice to me rather than the best wild area with an outfitter who does not respect me and sees me only as paying customer and nothing else. | |||
|
| Administrator |
Gentlemen, There are a lot more crooked clients than PHs. A lot more PHs get screwed by trusting clients to pay what is due to them after the client gets home. | |||
|
| One of Us |
True Saeed, very true. | |||
|
One of Us |
My friend, if anyone tells you they can estimate tusk weight to the degree you apparently require, they are wrong. But more to the point, you are wrong to require it. IMHO, of course. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yea to stay clear of you at a hunting camp | |||
|
| One of Us |
Right you are. I had a well known and well respected PH who is known for his elephant hunting skills tell me, " Larry, I can, at times, accurately estimate the weight of a tusk. It is because I am lucky. If anyone tells you they can always estimate the weight of tusks on a large bull within 10%, they are lying." He went on to explain the nerve, the length inside the skull and even the density of the ivory were issues. | |||
|
One of Us |
Not taking sides in this dispute, but if a booking agent, PH, outfitter etc. tells me I have to pay trophy fees upfront I won't book the hunt. Years ago I booked a plains game hunt that was advertised here on AR. A deposit was paid and the booking agent told me I could pay the trophy fees to him when I returned. This was my first hunt with this outfitter and the booking agent. I had a great hunt and offered to pay the outfitter what was due at the end of the hunt but he declined and told me they would send me a bill. When the bill came I noticed a $500 mistake. I was charged less than what I owed. I brought this to the booking agents attention and paid the proper amount. It's a shame that there are enough dishonest people on both sides that everyone can't operate like this. I did ask the outfitter/land owner if he had ever been cheated by someone who didn't pay after leaving. He told me he never experienced such a problem and trusted his fellow hunters. Tom Z NRA Life Member | |||
|
One of Us |
There is hunting and collecting they are different and should not be confused with one another. We hunted over 200 elephants in our area between 1998 and 2013 and about 50% were precisely called in other areas some went over like Jaco Visser and Arthur Vickerman who called 70 pounds and it went 103 pounds . A well known writer had the same complaint he wanted a 65 pound bull it was 61 when shot and over 6 months the tusks dried down to 59, he refused to accept the tusks and accused everybody of switching them. Now hunting is closing in many countries because trophy hunting is not seen as a sport but just killing to collect , are we surprised yet ? The chances of a bull having all the right dimensions but a big nerve happens , and sometimes in reverse - a bull with short thick tusks had almost no nerve and went 80 pounds after being called at 55 pounds , the point is there arte variables and anything over 55 pounds is a great bull by any standard . But if you want to KILL a 65 pound bull please dont call it hunting. | |||
|
One of Us |
You will be surprised at how often clients will renege on payment. More outfitters are only booking clients that have paid a large percentage in advance or clients that they know personally. In this case I feel that the client needed to be clear on his expectations and state plainly, in writing. "I will not pay a trophy fee on any animal weighing less than xxx". That should have been in the contract. I imagine that if that was the case that the outfitter would only have agreed to the deal if there was a premium attached to the trophy fee, or, if he was sensible, he would have declined the hunt. To demand 100% of the fee back because it didnt live up to expectations seems very strange to me. What is really sad here is that this guy allowed the weight of the tusks to dictate his enjoyment of the hunt. He left with a smile on his face and enjoyed his hunt. Then started throwing it away when he got some numbers on a page. Stop and smell the elephant shit on your boots. You dont take the tusks to your grave, but you can cherish the memory of taking an amazing animal. Maybe its time to bury the hatchet and honour the memory of this incredible animal that you were privileged to have been able to hunt. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
What Leopard Track said. Doubtful if anyone could be that precise in weight estimation. Take joy in the hunt not the weight of a tusk. Tim | |||
|
| One of Us |
Pretty much. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I finished a buffalo hunt in Sep. I expressly wanted a 40" or better buffalo. I was prepared to go home empty-handed, rather than take a lessor bull. We (PH Lin Stanton and crew) hunted hard for 6 days. I turned down a 38" (estimated) bull on the first day. At the end of day 6, we spotted some buffalo, one of which the PH estimated to be around 38". I decided to shoot the bull. The actual measurement was closer to 36". I chose to shoot the bull and I took full responsibility for my decision. Rather than moan about the fact that my bull didn't meet some artificial goal I set for myself, or that it was slightly smaller than the PH estimated, I rejoiced in the attributes of the animal that I did take. I made the final decision on whether to shoot or not. Expecting the PH to be able to judge an animals horns or tusks exactly is unreasonable IMO. There are no guarantees in hunting. If I were totally adamant about wanting a 65 lb a side ellie, I would study everything I could find on how to judge an elephant ivory on the hoof. Even then, I would accept the reality that estimating the weight of ivory is an inexact science and even the best experts might be off by a considerable amount. In no way, would I expect a refund if the animal didn't measure up to my expectations. No one forced you to pull the trigger. JMO BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
|
| One of Us |
What a shame...the (****) spent all that money and didn't even come away with a good memory! USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
It is a hell of a lot easier to judge a 40 inch buff than it is to judge a 65 pound elephant. This safari was a accident waiting to happen. | |||
|
One of Us |
With the little knowledge I have on judging ivory, if I NEEDED a 65 plus bull, i would only shoot a bull my ph estimated to be at least 75-80lbs after looking it from ALL angles, in other case you may be disappointed time after time. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Often when I struggle to phrase something quite right, I am fortunate to come across the musings of Surestrike who seems to strike the perfect tone and timbre for the moment. Jeff +1 | |||
|
| One of Us |
That wasn't the point of my story. The point was I decided that the buff was big enough for me, and I pulled the trigger. If the PH had said it looked to be 40" and it turned out to be 39", I still would not have blamed the PH, or whined about getting my trophy fee back. The hunter ultimately decides to pull the trigger. He/she can see the animal with their own eyes and decide if it is something they want. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
|
| One of Us |
This thread may show exactly why outfitters are demanding money up front. Imagine the position the outfitter would be in if the client had shot the Elephant and left without paying and then refused to because the tusk weight was off by a small margin. I know of one case where a member of this site stiffed the outfitter on an Elephant. That bill has still never been paid. There are very few outfitters who could take a knock like that and still keep their heads above water. Food for thought. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| Administrator |
I wish you or the outfitter in question would post the details of that hunt. Only way to avoid dealing with a crook is by knowing who he is. Whether it being a client, or a professional in the field. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The outfitter and agent involved are both active on AR. Its up to them if they wish to do so. But yes, you are right. They should be outed to avoid others falling into their trap. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
I know of one where the trophy fee was not paid with pretty damn good reason. If this happens to be the same situation, the outfitter will damage himself by bringing it up. The outfitter did not deliver as promised or close to it. I do not know if it is the same situation. There are often two sides to a story. Having said that, I agree that clients stiff outfitters far too often. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sheepman, this is absolutely ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourself! The elephant you took is a hell of a trophy and the adventure of the hunt is where the true trophy lies. Some people would bitch if you gave them gold as it was too heavy for them to carry or it wasn't shiny enough. You have no merit in my books others may differ but I would still disagree. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bottom line - The guy behind the trigger is the responsible party. I believe everybody realizes that PHs are fallible and trophy estimation is part art and part luck. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
After reading this mess...I have come to the conclusion some people should just play golf and leave hunting to those that appreciate the purpose. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I see it was discussed at length on the forum. I was referring to the Llamapacker incident. Was there ever an outcome as per what I could find on the search there was never a payment made for any of the trophies. Something along the lines of $26 000 Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
That is NOT the one. As far as I know, the one I am thinking about has not been made public. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Happy Birthday Larry. Hope you have a good one. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thank you sir! | |||
|
| one of us |
As far as exposing misleading(call them whatever you want)outfitters goes it is difficult to do here because of all the bullying they will receive from posters who aspire to be the most favorable clients or the most popular among idiots or the industry mafia. | |||
|
One of Us |
I think what would be help for someone new to hunting in Africa like me is if there was a list of "not recommended " P.H.'s. even though it would be one sided, it would help. ZIMBABWE 2016 ZIMBABWE 2017 Zimbabwe 2019 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sad to say, but I would imagine 80% of all PH's have probably had at least one PIA client in their career who would happily put their name on a list. It is easier to just run a name past the many hunters here to see what response you get. After all that's what AR is all about. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
One of Us |
Just use the search function with the PH's and outfits name and information is there. You just have to read a bit of chaff to get to the wheat. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
|
one of us |
I have hunters bring in the biggest buck they've ever killed and they are on top of the world. Then they get it scored or aged and it wasn't what they thought or what their buddies said it was. Their whole demeanor changes all because of a stupid number. Sad! Jerry Huffaker State, National and World Champion Taxidermist | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, if nothing else, I have learned from this thread that clients actually stiff outfitters. I had no idea that actually happened. | |||
|
One of Us |
Ah, a little tongue in cheek is good for a topic like this. In this particular instance, based on what the OP has said, I cannot see that there is much of an issue........... at least not if you are looking at things realistically. Judging ivory is not an exact science to be sure............ OP shot a nice bull and it ended up weighing less than he wanted, but the weight was still respectable. Heck most guys would give their left nut to go on a hunt like that.......... me included. Sad how the quality of the experience gets reduced to pounds and inches. I will never understand it. As a long time guide and outfitter I have seen it way too often...... and it seems to be getting more prevalent. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
Moderator |
Which is why I've never measured any of my trophies. The trip, people I was with and the adventure is the real trophy. ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Hunting Reports - Africa Elephant Hunt Gone Wrong!
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia