Below is the TR-2 game report regarding llamapacker/William Phifer and Nixon-SSG safari.

You may find it interesting.

Dale

I think something went wrong buddy.

Hit Cntrl & + to enlarge Cntrl & - to reduce.

Here they are:

Shakari,

That is why you are the best outfitter/PH. You can do anything and everything.

Thanks,

dale

I would recommend out of decency to pull this picture, black out Bill's passport number and home address and repost.

Always a pleasure buddy.

Well Bill??

Ouch!

I promised myself I woudn't get into this fiasco, but I think I have figured out what happened. Bill was guided by Nixon's son, an apparent violation of Zim. law. Bill kills the animals shown, then either finds out or is told that by having an unlicensed PH, he is possibly in violation of Zim. law. He then refuses to pay the trophy fees for the animals or have them shipped here, which he feels could possibly be a violation of the Lacey Act. Howz that???

Tembo, I'm glad you decided to post! We needed someone to inject a bit of humor!

Probably pretty close if I had to guess.

I wonder if there are other violations that may have spooked him as well?

Pants on the ground!
Pants on the ground!
Pants on the ground!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...GbDE&feature=related

Uh OH!!!

I remember when Bill posted that it was virtually impossible to shoot all that game in the relatively short duration of his hunt. Wow. Talk about a credibility killer.

As for Tembo's theory of the case. I agree. I posted the same basic concept on the "Client's Safari Contract" thread Sunday afternoon.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
I promised myself I woudn't get into this fiasco, but I think I have figured out what happened. Bill was guided by Nixon's son, an apparent violation of Zim. law. Bill kills the animals shown, then either finds out or is told that by having an unlicensed PH, he is possibly in violation of Zim. law. He then refuses to pay the trophy fees for the animals or have them shipped here, which he feels could possibly be a violation of the Lacey Act. Howz that???

the paperwork has Nixon's name and license number on it. As far as the government knows, he conducted the hunt- unless of course, the folks at Parks are followers of AR ( or some members decide to stick it to Nixon and notify them of this thread- which wouldn't surprise me given some of the comments here). frankly i think Bill got carried away and overshot his budget.

Why do you think the 2nd klipspringer has been crossed of the list?? It seems to me according to the first entry that they may have only been quota for 1?!Seems strange that someone would erroneously enter an animal shot that wasn't, especially since there was a 5 day gap between the 1st and 2nd being shot.

Just looked at it again and realise that it may not be cancelled after all

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
I promised myself I woudn't get into this fiasco, but I think I have figured out what happened. Bill was guided by Nixon's son, an apparent violation of Zim. law. Bill kills the animals shown, then either finds out or is told that by having an unlicensed PH, he is possibly in violation of Zim. law. He then refuses to pay the trophy fees for the animals or have them shipped here, which he feels could possibly be a violation of the Lacey Act. Howz that???

the paperwork has Nixon's name and license number on it. As far as the government knows, he conducted the hunt- unless of course, the folks at Parks are followers of AR ( or some members decide to stick it to Nixon and notify them of this thread- which wouldn't surprise me given some of the comments here). frankly i think Bill got carried away and overshot his budget.

I have been thinking it was a case of overshooting what he could afford vs finding out at the end he had been hunting illegally (ie poaching) and did what had to do to get out of Zim.

Sad, ugly situation no matter what.

Form looks reasonably legitimate. Parks stamp and signature are.

Being the person responsible for creating the TR2 I know how difficult it is to fill in correctly and have, subsiquent to leaving National Parks service, taken similar shortcuts to the ones Nixon has with the grid references. No Agents commision is allowed for and daily rate incorrectly specified...but money accounted for, so no problem there. Client hasn't filled in his name at the end of the form but it is signed, so Parks/reserve bank would accept it.

NB...All mones banked to date are prior to the hunt taking place. At this late stage it would take some fancy footwork and quite alot of hassle to get the TR2 Aquited and trophies exported.

Overshot quota? In June...I doubt it. Those who hunted after bill need to look at the balnce of quota listed and see where they fit in but that early in the season...looks about right.

I never thought I would be thanking Dale Wilkie for proving my case, but the TR 2 which is posted is the most amazing document. Credit must be given where credit is due, so thanks, Dale.

First, and most importantly, this document has been altered. I actually wish I could claim it was legit, because it goes so far to prove my claims about Nixon. So by way of scholarly examination, let’s pretend it is accurate, but don’t forget it isn’t. There are so many inconsistencies it is hard to know where to start….

Numbers are easy to read, and provide a simple analysis. The initial entries (first column) and the revised numbers (second column) appear to be:
Daily rate = $6600 ----$7,260
Trophy fees = $ 29,500 ----$39,200
Grand Total = $36,100 ----$46,460
At least the math works for each of these columns. There isn’t any way that the animals listed can total the $29,500 in trophy fees. It is also interesting to note the animals section was filled out with two different pens, and trophy fee prices changed to the point where some are nearly impossible to decipher. Of further interest is the crossing out of a second Klipspringer. Was this was crossed off because the quota had already been filled? Was it actually killed in a different concession? We are already at a rather significant price difference between the columns, actually a $10,340 increase from the initial entries. But let’s put that aside and assume the $46,460 figure is real, and maybe someone just had trouble with their math.
Dale Wilkie and Bobby Lowe have already posted e-mails and claim that I paid $20K by wire transfer and $9K by traveler’s checks. They further claimed that I owed another $26,460 BEFORE even finding out the T.C.’s had been rejected. How can this be? If Nixon received the T.C.’s as payment, I wouldn’t have owed $26K+. From the initial thread Bobby started, however, it appears that the T.C.’s were deposited in Nixon’s account.
It appears they are having trouble keeping their story straight. Their e-mails seem to indicate the T.C.’s weren’t presented for payment of trophy fees. Yet Nixon claims to be upset that the “stolen” T.C.’s were rejected at his bank. Aren’t these stories mutually exclusive? Why isn’t the $9K reflected on the deposits? Other payments?

While this is the crux of the issue, there are a few other noteworthy entries. Daily fees on page 2 are listed as “N/A”, even though they are entered on page 1 as either 6600 or 7260. It would appear the giraffe and 2nd Klipspringer weren’t killed on Malapati. See the “Concession/farm” column on the form. Where are these other areas? At the upper left of Page 2 it appears the third line reads “SAVE River”. Line 4 is unintelligible to me. I know I have never visited the Save (my loss.)

The client name on page 1 was also written in a different pen, perhaps at a different time. Is this someone else’s TR2? The bank deposit dates don’t seem consistent, either. The e-mails claim only 2 wire transfers, yet there are 4 different deposits, on different dates, not equaling the amounts of the wire transfers. Aren’t Forex wire transfers monitored pretty closely by Zim authorities? How were the trophies ever going to be shipped if the Forex deposits weren’t going to be accurately reported? I thought Nixon posted that all the trophy fees had been paid to Parks, and the trophies were ready to ship. That doesn’t seem consistent with this document. I’d also like to know who signed this document as the “Land Authority”, as that person seems to have also made the changes to the dollar amounts first listed. That signature is illegible.

What about the number of bait animals listed? The supposed e-mails already posted list more bait animals than the TR2. Can anyone legitimately hunt leopard and lion for two plus weeks with so few baits?

I’m sorry that many of you still want all the sordid details of this trip from my perspective. As I’ve said from the beginning, that will never happen on AR. If I was ever afforded the opportunity to arbitrate or litigate my claims, that is when the story will come out. With documents like this TR2 being presented by Nixon, I don’t have any doubt I will ultimately prevail. Dale and Bobby don’t really know what happened, and don’t have the records of my payments. Nixon apparently has told so many different stories even to Dale and Bobby, he can’t keep them straight. Once again, I paid my bill in full. I’m not going to post my documents so they can create a new fiction based on my records.

And while I have never claimed to be rich, I'd be happy to put to rest the speculation about what I can "afford". I would like to challenge all the operators and booking agents out there to offer me a LEGAL, fair chase safari for 2 exportable trophy eles, 2 buffalo, leopard, croc, lion on quota (trophy fee extra), giraffe, baits, daily rate, etc., all for $46K, and I will PREPAY for such a safari, and post a full hunt report on AR. Somehow, I think I wouldn't be the only one in line for this kind of deal.

Bill

Phifer:

You can easily prove your case by providing your TR2. But then again, you have already stated you won't be doing that.

I wonder why.

You will never hunt in Africa again. You can't possibly ever consider returning to Zim without fear of arrest.

Was it worth it?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Phifer:

You can easily prove your case by providing your TR2. But then again, you have already stated you won't be doing that.

I wonder why.

You will never hunt in Africa again. You can't possibly ever consider returning to Zim without fear of arrest.

Was it worth it?

Is it just me or are they any other hunters who don't bother with copies of their hunting license?

I sign mine and that is the last I see of it.

On some occasions I take a photo, just for memories sake.

I'm one of those more cautious folks who likes to have all the facts before calling a result. Bill I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not posting the necessary info or at least your side of the story, given the vitriol of the opposing camp. If you didn't pay your bill for a good reason then there is no shame in saying so. If you were lead astray by the PH into an illegal situation then let fellow AR members know so they will not fall into the same trap. Your unwillingness to put cards on the table casts suspicion when there may be no reason to. It's like when the cops want to talk to someone and he immediately refuses to talk without an attorney .... It's human nature to wonder what there is to hide. Use it, don't use it. Just my 2c (South African!) worth.
JCHB

My 2 cents (American)

Seems to me there can only be 4 reasons Bill does not want to air his defenses/version of events here

1. He has colorable defenses but does not want to divulge them because they will paint him in a bad light e.g. yes I shot an elephant but it was undersized so I don't want to pay for it

2. He has valid claims/defenses but does not want to tip his hand to the other side.

I don't know of any proceeding that allows prove up of claims and defenses without discovery first, so sooner or later, these positions would be divulged prior to any arbitration/mediation/trial, so why not disclose them now?

3. The travelers checks were tendered to Nixon and then reported stolen, and further discussion tied to him will result in problem with American Express e.g. they weren't "stolen" but let's say, obtained under threat or duress- e.g. pay me or go to jail in Zimbabwe.

4. Bill may be quite pleased with how this all turned out. He hunted, got out of the country, and turns out doesn't really want or care to pay for the taxidermy anyway, and didn't pay what was owed, for reasons only he knows.

Therefore he feels justified in his position, and is happy to let this just sit there as it.

Chances are no matter what Nixon says about the travelers checks, AMEX or whomever is going to err on the side of caution and back their client.

The only other alternatives, as I see it, is that Nixon and crew are true world class scammers and liars and to be avoided at all costs.

Herein is the rub.

And justification for we on AR to stick our noses in this. If there really is someone out there booking hunts and even benefitting (before) in AR exposure, and represented by a fellow AR member, we need to know if there is an operator out there who is a crook.

I was not warmed by Bill's post in this thread. He pointed out this and that and said there was more to the story and so on.

Why can't you, Bill, just post the dates of the wire transfers, the amounts, the amount paid in total, the animals you think you owe for, the daily rates, all ticked and tied?

Surely you have done this already?

My posited 4 reasons for not doing so are all I believe mitigated by the potential threat to future Nixon clients. So why can't you help us out with the information?

Otherwise, I think you are probably in the wrong here and option 4 is in play.

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
My 2 cents (American)

Seems to me there can only be 4 reasons Bill does not want to air his defenses/version of events here

1. He has colorable defenses but does not want to divulge them because they will paint him in a bad light e.g. yes I shot an elephant but it was undersized so I don't want to pay for it

2. He has valid claims/defenses but does not want to tip his hand to the other side.

I don't know of any proceeding that allows prove up of claims and defenses without discovery first, so sooner or later, these positions would be divulged prior to any arbitration/mediation/trial, so why not disclose them now?

3. The travelers checks were tendered to Nixon and then reported stolen, and further discussion tied to him will result in problem with American Express e.g. they weren't "stolen" but let's say, obtained under threat or duress- e.g. pay me or go to jail in Zimbabwe.

4. Bill may be quite pleased with how this all turned out. He hunted, got out of the country, and turns out doesn't really want or care to pay for the taxidermy anyway, and didn't pay what was owed, for reasons only he knows.

Therefore he feels justified in his position, and is happy to let this just sit there as it.

Chances are no matter what Nixon says about the travelers checks, AMEX or whomever is going to err on the side of caution and back their client.

The only other alternatives, as I see it, is that Nixon and crew are true world class scammers and liars and to be avoided at all costs.

Herein is the rub.

And justification for we on AR to stick our noses in this. If there really is someone out there booking hunts and even benefitting (before) in AR exposure, and represented by a fellow AR member, we need to know if there is an operator out there who is a crook.

I was not warmed by Bill's post in this thread. He pointed out this and that and said there was more to the story and so on.

Why can't you, Bill, just post the dates of the wire transfers, the amounts, the amount paid in total, the animals you think you owe for, the daily rates, all ticked and tied?

Surely you have done this already?

My posited 4 reasons for not doing so are all I believe mitigated by the potential threat to future Nixon clients. So why can't you help us out with the information?

Otherwise, I think you are probably in the wrong here and option 4 is in play.

Jeff,

Well said, and well reasoned out.

I too am of the belief that Bill made a mistake and overshot his budget. And is looking to weasel his way out of payment.

If there were a problem with the hunt, state it clearly. Obfuscating by Packer gets the villiagers out with torches and pitch forks.

His posts certainly look like they were crafted by a lawyer - depends what the definition of "is" is.

And Packer states that he has no desire to see his trophies shipped from Africa. So why bother to pay the guy, right Bill? Congrats on inventing a chicken shit method of screwing your PH out of what could be a life changing amount of coin.

Justify it any way you like. I am still up for helping with Nixon with whatever recourse is available.

Oh, and that A.R.F. red herring post? Puh-lease, you should be ashamed of yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


Is it just me or are they any other hunters who don't bother with copies of their hunting license?

I sign mine and that is the last I see of it.

On some occasions I take a photo, just for memories sake.

I do not recall ever ending up with a copy either.

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
2. He has valid claims/defenses but does not want to tip his hand to the other side.

I don't know of any proceeding that allows prove up of claims and defenses without discovery first, so sooner or later, these positions would be divulged prior to any arbitration/mediation/trial, so why not disclose them now?

Possibly:

2B - He discovered that he took part in an ILLEGAL hunt -- perhaps unknowingly at first. As a result, he knew he would never have his trophies shipped to the U.S. and risk the consequences. To recover his TC's he then falsely claimed them stolen.

To that end it would be totally dumb to reveal the latter or his involvement in the former here in public.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

Possibly:

2B - He discovered that he took part in an ILLEGAL hunt -- perhaps unknowingly at first. As a result, he knew he would never have his trophies shipped to the U.S. and risk the consequences. To recover his TC's he then falsely claimed them stolen.

To that end it would be totally dumb to reveal the latter or his involvement in the former here in public.

Quite possible, but that is not what he claimed, is it?

Packer claimed the t/cs were "taken", not extorted. "Taken" along with the gifts he brought to camp.

Also claims no one could shoot all those animals, or that it would be one heck of a hunt to kill all those critters, some such double talk.

Also that shooting the wrong ele post - and then claims "just a coincidence, didn't happen to me". Uh-huh.

My 2 centavos, packer took the coward's path and is in over his head.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

Possibly:

2B - He discovered that he took part in an ILLEGAL hunt -- perhaps unknowingly at first. As a result, he knew he would never have his trophies shipped to the U.S. and risk the consequences. To recover his TC's he then falsely claimed them stolen.

To that end it would be totally dumb to reveal the latter or his involvement in the former here in public.

Quite possible, but that is not what he claimed, is it?

Packer claimed the t/cs were "taken", not extorted. "Taken" along with the gifts he brought to camp.

Also claims no one could shoot all those animals, or that it would be one heck of a hunt to kill all those critters, some such double talk.

Also that shooting the wrong ele post - and then claims "just a coincidence, didn't happen to me". Uh-huh.

My 2 centavos, packer took the coward's path and is in over his head.

Of course that isn't what is claimed. See my last sentence.

By claiming such he would be admitting to it -- i.e. doing something illegal, thus leaving himself open to the consequences. So everything stated here by him is nothing more than noise to avoid revealing such.

Tony,

I agree. Unfortunately, packers actions are ripples in a pond that have far reaching and unseen consequences. And I am sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and make their life someone else's problem. I guess that's why my pitch fork is sharp.

Anyway, I am done here. If Dale or Bobby want my contribution to bring this to justice, they can PM me.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Tony,

I agree. Unfortunately, packers actions are ripples in a pond that have far reaching and unseen consequences. And I am sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and make their life someone else's problem. I guess that's why my pitch fork is sharp.

Anyway, I am done here. If Dale or Bobby want my contribution to bring this to justice, they can PM me.

Yup, I agree about taking responsibility. Not to defend him, but if what I said above is close to true, the responsibilty might not be his if he didn't know about any illegality with the hunt until after fact.

BTW, I see where my comment on the TCs might have been ambiguous. I didn't mean he claimed that falsely here; he falsely claimed such to Amex -- i.e. lied to recover the funds. So he isn't going to admit he lied to Amex on this forum. Obviously he couldn't recover the wire transfers.

Couple of points.
Client doesn't get a copy of the TR2 unless he gets the operator to photocopy it or takes a photo...

There is no legal requrement to bank the deposit against a particular TR2, just to have it ALL banked within 14 days of the end of the hunt.

Nixon has two concessions adjacent to each other- one belongs to parks and one to council. He put one klipspringa down as Malapati safari area, and the other against the quota in the council area. The grid references are not correctly filled in- but I wouldn't read too much into that- less than 10% of the grid references on any TR2 are correctly filled in- most local PH's cannot even use a GPS properly and use wrong grid system....

Methinks Outdoor writer has figured the basics out pretty well.

As for Nixon as a 'problem' operator...add up the number of elephants shot by his clients on this and 24hr campfire and huntamerica, and se the omments about sending his son off with clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Methinks Outdoor writer has figured the basics out pretty well.

As for Nixon as a 'problem' operator...add up the number of elephants shot by his clients on this and 24hr campfire and huntamerica, and se the omments about sending his son off with clients.

Clarity. Or as close as we can get.

Sounds like Nixon is to be avoided?


Bad business to play things on the edge or over the edge, it gives those you deal with an "out" for not performing their part of the bargain.

And leaves you with no recourse.

quote:

add up the number of elephants shot by his clients on this and 24hr campfire and huntamerica

Roy,

I have tried using the search function on both websites you mention and can find no posts regarding "Nixon", "SSG" "Malapati" or "Dzingai" with reference to elephants shot or hunted. 24 Hour Campfire only shows one post by RAC and that is reference to Cape Buffalo.

On this board,this year, the tally is Bill Phifer-2, SBT-2, and Chris Lozano-1. And, as you know, between Nixon's two areas, he has nine elephant on quota.

Please provide specific links to verify your statements as I am unable to find them.

Edited 2-5-09: I left off Mbogobutch - 1.

Looking back, I do not think I have a copy of my license (other than the photo that I took). I do have receipts that my PH gave me when I left camp, detailing what I shot, camp bills, tips, etc. (debits) and what I paid in TCs and wire transfers prior to the hunt (credits). What I owed was clearly marked. Within days of coming home I wired the rest of the moolah to the booking agent that I used.

Surely Phifer has these kinds of receipts.

One other thought...what about the impact of CITIES permits? Wouldn't Phifer have to apply for a different/amended CITIES permit if he wanted to import two elephants? I am in Texas now, but I think my CITIES permit said quantity "one."

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:

quote:

add up the number of elephants shot by his clients on this and 24hr campfire and huntamerica

Roy,

I have tried using the search function on both websites you mention and can find no posts regarding "Nixon", "SSG" "Malapati" or "Dzingai" with reference to elephants shot or hunted. 24 Hour Campfire only shows one post by RAC and that is reference to Cape Buffalo.

On this board,this year, the tally is Bill Phifer-2, SBT-2, and Chris Lozano-1. And, as you know, between Nixon's two areas, he has nine elephant on quota.

Please provide specific links to verify your statements as I am unable to find them.

Not sure Ganyana was specifically referring to this year. Having been an avid reader and occasional poster on these forums for a number of years there are a handful of people that I believe are not completely full of crap, and Ganyana is one (but I have been labeled a "ZOMBIE" from the old McBragg days!). As one who makes his living in the forensic arena I have learned that things are NEVER as they appear. Outsiders cannot be sure exactly what happened here, but reading between the lines one can reasonably surmise what has happened. Unpleasantries on multiple accounts and by multiple parties. Two more people that I would never share a campfire with.....my Zim cents worth

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:

quote:

add up the number of elephants shot by his clients on this and 24hr campfire and huntamerica

Roy,

I have tried using the search function on both websites you mention and can find no posts regarding "Nixon", "SSG" "Malapati" or "Dzingai" with reference to elephants shot or hunted. 24 Hour Campfire only shows one post by RAC and that is reference to Cape Buffalo.

On this board,this year, the tally is Bill Phifer-2, SBT-2, and Chris Lozano-1. And, as you know, between Nixon's two areas, he has nine elephant on quota.

Please provide specific links to verify your statements as I am unable to find them.

Not sure Ganyana was specifically referring to this year. Having been an avid reader and occasional poster on these forums for a number of years there are a handful of people that I believe are not completely full of crap, and Ganyana is one (but I have been labeled a "ZOMBIE" from the old McBragg days!). As one who makes his living in the forensic arena I have learned that things are NEVER as they appear. Outsiders cannot be sure exactly what happened here, but reading between the lines one can reasonably surmise what has happened. Unpleasantries on multiple accounts and by multiple parties. Two more people that I would never share a campfire with.....my Zim cents worth

As SBT said, if you know Nixon did something illegal, let's put the cards on the table.

The whole issue of quota, etc. is a total red herring. Why did Phifer shoot the animals if he knew Nixon was somehow hunting illegally? Who would do that?

So we are to assume that he found out ex post facto. So what? He still owes his trophy fees and can take that up with Nixon. After all, TFs are ultimately due to the gov't right? I don't ever recall any stipulation on my license that if a PH does something unethical, illegal, etc. that I can shoot an animal and elect to skip paying the TFs.

And then there is the issue that just won't go away: the TCs.

Nixon should file a claim in both the US through a POA and also in Zim. Phifer will never show up in court, and assuming Zim courts are like the US, maybe they can issue a warrant for his arrest. Then we never have to worry about him returning to Zim again.

quote:

Not sure Ganyana was specifically referring to this year.

I have no quarrel with Roy, I just ask that facts are verified and not thrown out as chafe to the wind.

As I understand it, quota is year to year. To add up the number otherwise means nothing. Please explain your point?

Frankly, Ganyana, you are giving me the impression that you feel threatened by Nixon's operation. That might not be your intent, but I have to tell that is the impression you are giving to me.

Perception is more important than reality.

AZ,Perception is indeed more important than reality in many cases and from wading through this thread I perceive that Nixon ain't as pure as the driven snow either. Have we not established that it is illigal to send your unqualified son as PH on a DG hunt in Zim? And why on earth would Ganyana be threatened by Nixon's operation?? That's like saying you are threatened by Packer because you state a case against him. I think by now AR'ers (clients) will be thinking very carefully who they book with and outfitters(PH's) will be thinking very carefully about how payments are made this coming season....

AAZ...no I haven't seen Nixon for several years and was last in Malapati when I was a parks officer - He is no threat to me or anything I do - except that some of his actions bring whole chunks of hunting under review and possibly restriction.

Nixon's 'Crimes' are his sloppy paperwork which opens the doors for all sorts of other investigations (which are nothing to do with the fight with llamapacker and this thread) and the illegal use of his son as a PH. He knows better on both counts - he is putting his son in jepardy when he should have been pushing him just to get his license and he is bringing unwanted attention onto the industry when we can least afford it.

Let me get this straight, because Nixon has/had a client that stiffed him on trophy fees and he wants to collect his/the government's money, HE's bringing unwanted attention to "the industry" when it can least afford it? Yeah right.

Why don't you say it the other way, that the client's thievery and the resulting publicity is bringing unwanted attention to the industry. After all, if Phifer had done what he was supposed to do, the honorable thing, then this "discussion" would never have happened.

Finally, if the industry can't stand any "attention" because of one public dispute then perhaps it needs some "attention".