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| One of Us |
well-- ive watched this thread and another about all this goings on in the african hunt business. and watched with interest the proceedings of a kangaroo court in session. but more interesting to me is there has been 11 thousand 5 hundred viewing and 2 hundred replies. i would be asking myself just who the other 11,300 are?? [big brother is alive and well]. the court should never have been in session. | |||
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Right, people in the outfitting business don't need to know about doing business with a guy who may well skip on the bills, let's just keep it in the closet like a perverted uncle and hope it doesn't happen again.  | |||
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your point is well taken. i guess its a catch 22. | |||
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Let's consider for a moment IF someone was unknowingly involved in an illegal hunt by way of over shooting the quota, out of his concession boundaries or some other illegal activity........What would you do if you were in such shoes and found out about it after the fact. You are on the hook, you pulled the trigger regardless of ignorance. Would it be a Lacey Act violation if you do not import the tropheys? Or could you minimize your legal exposure by refusing to import those tropheys? You could go and tell the authorities and risk going down with the ship and take your lumps, but would you really want to go to jail in ZIM or have to defend yourself in a ZIM court? I wouldn't! What I would do is refuse to pay for any part of the illegal hunt or stiff him out of payment as soon as I left the country. Then you have a situation where he can't get paid for the illegal activity without telling on himself. Kinda like having your wallet stolen by a hooker.....who ya gonna report that to? As far as TC's are concerned, the word "stolen" could take on different meanings under different circumstances, it doesn't have to be a thief swiping them from under your pillow in the dark of night. I would consider them stolen if I was being blackmailed into using them, if disception was used to acquire them, threats were used to take them or gunpoint forced them out of my hands, equally. | |||
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Basically the same thoughts I pondered when I suggested 2B earlier. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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I would imagine that the travelers check company has a record of exactly what Bill complained... whether it was duress or theft, etc. Also, if one goes to the all various threads on this matter, you will see comments by Bill that may preclude the above theories... not that the above isn't possible, it's just not what he said happened or why he said he didn't pay... I wonder if AmEx or whomever is actually going to the trouble to find out if the signatures were forged or stolen. I wouldn't think it a good precedent to not get to the bottom of the competing claims or anyone could just claim theft and get free stuff overseas???? Who would take TC's over there if such a simple (and unverified claim) could leave a merchant or PH or hotel swing in the wind. Duress, of course, does happen, but in my simple mind, I'd report it as exactly what it was, not claim something else happened. Sometimes you get stuck with your first story. JMHO JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Would you ADMIT here in public that you hunted and killed a bunch of critters on an illegal hunt and then also lied to AMEX to recover the TCs?? I know I wouldn't. As I mentioned earlier, any claims made here are possibly just extraneous noise to avoid the real reason for the actions taken. And...note as of yet there has been no denial to the possibilty of this hypothetical theory.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Saeed, and Mr. Helm: I will bow to Saeed's much greater experience than mine, and presume that Mr. Helm is in that same category. That said, I would never, ever hunt (or fish) for any game on this planet without a laminated copy of my license, be it temporary or permanent, on my person. You will probably never need such. But, if you do, it's kind of like a handgun: If you don't need it, no harm done. But if you do need it, youu need it very badly and RIGHT NOW. | |||
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Well said!  | |||
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I believe the form described here is one that Zim Parks has the PH fill out -- unless it is different from my hunt (I did not export anything). I do not think you get a copy unless, as mentioned here, the PH has a photocopier and makes a copy for you. Not likely in the camps I have been in but maybe Parks has one. Not sure where you can get one laminated in the typical camp either... ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Bryan: Your theory is about as ridiculous as your defense for llamapacker. First of all, if you pull the trigger, you pay. Period. End of story. You have no right not to pay. If you learn after the hunt that it was not legal, then sue the operator. What is the old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right?" AMEX's terms and conditions do not say you can report TCs as stolen because you somehow didn't get value. Try that in the US and see how long you stay out of jail. That defense is just not plausible. But let's consider this from a hypothetical situation...Phifer would have to have learned that his hunt was conducted illegally before he settled his bill. What, did the game scout tell him? Did a tracker? If so, how do you know they are reliable? The only way Phifer would truly know would be to know the legal boundries of hunting areas and have a GPS with which he set the proper map datum. Then, he would have to choose to ignore the GPS data until after you he pulled the trigger. Does that sound like something that could reasonably have happened? | |||
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If he took that route, he wouldn't stand a chance in hell of recovering his money paid for trophies he couldn't legally possess. If any outfitter/guide provided me with an illegal hunt, and I found that out after the hunt but before I paid him, you can bet your boots his bank account wouldn't grow by one penny. It wouldn't matter what I killed. And if he didn't like it, let him sue me and see how far it would go, considering the legal ramificatiions. When someone books a hunt, they should be able to trust the outfitter to provide a hunt that is legal in all aspects. If that doesn't happen, the client owes nothing because he didn't receive what he paid for. Instead, his own well-being was threatened because of his participation. Now, if the client KNOWINGLY participates in an illegal hunt going in, then there is indeed some co-responsibility. They both should be taken behind the woodshed and flogged. This might or might not be the case here. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, I might be wrong, but I believe the TFs are ultimately due to the gov't, not the operator. I would guess the opinion of the government would weigh here. And my guess is that Phifer will not be welcome back in Zim anytime soon if he stiffed an outfitter on TFs. How does he know there isn't a warrant for his arrest? How do you find out that your hunt is illegal after you have pulled the trigger but before you leave? Create a hypothetical situation in which that could possibly happen. And let's not forget, all of this "illegal speculation" is just that: speculation. I think I am a good judge of character. My guess is that if Nixon had shot a 50 lb ele we wouldn't be talking about this hunt. Period. Quail season ends tomorrow; better get out there. I was this morning. | |||
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It doesn't matter who is supposed to get the trophy fees. If the hunt was illegal, the outfitter should pay them because he's the one that is ultimately responsible for getting them paid to the government. I do not have to create a hypothetical; here is a REAL LIFE one I'm aware of that happened several years ago. I had done an article on a NR hunter who killed a good buck on the North Kaibab. He called me two years later because he wanted to extract a pound of flesh from an AZ outfitter. Here's the tale: The year after he tagged the buck, he drew an AZ elk permit and hired the guide. They hunted several days without seeing a good bull. So one night the guide tells him he knows a canyon that might hold several good bulls. The next morning they take off in the guide's truck. Sure enough, they found a nice 6x6 and the guy nailed it. On the way back to camp, an AZ WM was driving in the opposite direction and noticed the antlers in the back of the truck. He pulled over the guide. Naturally, he checked license/permit. Unbeknownst to the client, it turns out they had killed the bull in the WRONG unit and the guide admitted to knowingly doing so. The WM cited them both and confiscated the elk even though the guide told the WM that the hunter didn't have a clue where they were when they killed the elk. The guide paid a fine, and the hunter lost the elk, paid a fine and had his hunting privileges suspended for two years, basically preventing him from hunting in 33 states because of the Wildlife Violator Compact. Although he didn't pay the balance owed, he also demanded and got his original deposit back from the guide. Still, as a result, the hunter became a poacher and couldn't hunt in many states for two years. When I talked to him, the commission had just suspended his privileges. He was livid. He wanted me to publicize the incident in my column and include all the guide's info. I gracefully declined, however, because it had occurred too long ago. Soooo....here's a guy that pulled the trigger but lost his illegally taken elk. Granted, he had already paid the government "trophy fee" via the permit, but if the TF was an after-the-fact thing such as it is in ZIM, I would have told the guide, "Stick it where the sun doesn't shine. You pay it. My elk will be hanging in a G&F office." I agree, it's all speculation. But reading between the lines in all the threads as a "I don't have a dog in this fight" sorta guy, it appears to be a very plausible one to me. RE: quail I don't do birds anymore. Too old and lazy to climb the hills for such tiny rewards. Now if they could grow big antlers, i migh reconsider.  Heck, I don't even own a shotgun. I sold my Citori 20 to help finance my trip to RSA in 2003. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, Your story proves my point. The hunter had no idea that he shot his elk illegally. How did Phifer find out his hunt was illegal after he was done hunting but before he paid for it? I just can't imagine a scenario in which this could happen in Africa. As for telling the outfitter to stuff it, fine, that is your opinion. Just don't sign the TCs and then report them as stolen. And don't expect to hunt in Zim ever again. | |||
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Huh? You wrote: "How do you find out that your hunt is illegal after you have pulled the trigger but before you leave?" I thought it was fairly obvious that the hunter in my example knew it as soon as the WM cited him, yet before he left -- exactly what you asked for, no?  So who knows how Bill might have found it. Maybe on the last day a little birdie told him he was hunting in a NP or such. Or maybe he found out his guide wasn't properly licensed in some way. RE: TC's Imagine that he gave the TC's willingly BEFORE he knew the hunt wasn't up to legal snuff. So now he no longer possesses them. BUT...unlike the wired funds, to recover his $9K in TCs he had the out of the "they were stolen" claim, despite it being not only dishonest but perhaps illegal. Now, I'm not about to go back and try to find it, but I don't recall Bill saying he claimed the TC's were stolen. Do you? If I recall, that is what the agent claimed happened. Otherwise Bill would have admitted to lying about them being stolen. If that's the case, in reality, we have no idea what he told AMEX other than what the agent claimed here. I'm guessing you're right about no return trips to Zim.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Thanks, Judge. My bad. I do recall that now, even the part about them not being properly signed. That entire paragraph was one of the between the lines thingies I had mentioned. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, Okay, I will take the bait to beat a horse one more time... In the case you cited, the hunter was pulled over by an LEO. In the case of hunting in Nixon's camp, you would have no idea you hunted in an illegal area unless you had a GPS and some map info. Then the question becomes "why the hell are you pulling the trigger?" Suppose Nixon is a total crook and did something illegal. If he is a total liar, which Phifer claims he is, then he (Nixon) could state that Phifer was absolutely aware that he was doing something illegal. He has the witnesses, right? What is really funny here is the fact Phifer said he isn't going to import his trophies, yet he claims to have paid the TFs. Very few people in Africa do that, and certainly not first time ele hunters. IMO, the TCs are the most incriminating issue. Phifer claims he reported them stolen when he returned home. Did he have access to a phone? Who among us would have 9K in TCs stolen and then continue to hunt as if nothing happened? I sure wouldn't! And who among us would hunt with a guy, have their checks stolen, and not report it here? And let's not forget the laptop claim. Sure, emails can be fabricated, but I don't think that is in Nixon's skill set. I suppose Nixon could post Phifer's WT's, but Nixon doesn't have easy internet access (I had some emails forwarded to me). This whole story rests with the fact that Nixon stole Phifer's TCs and tried to cash them. I don't think so. Phifer denied shooting all the animals originally stated. I think that has been shown to be a lie. (Phifer claimed a klipsgringer or something looked funny - never deneid two eles, two buff, and a leopard.) Does anyone here have any doubt that AFR hunter is Phifer? This guy has absolutely zero credibility. Nixon should buy Google ads with this thread as the link. Key word: "Bill Phifer" | |||
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Tony, puhleeze. I may not be the writer you are, but I never use that term, "My bad." Yuck. I know, go ahead and tell me it is now acceptable language based on use, blah blah. You are better than that. | |||
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Mauser93, I am afraid all my experiences point to one thing. All the PHs and outfitters I have had the pleasure of dealing with have been of exceptional character. At no time have I ever been made to feel otherwise. May be I have been very lucky. But I suspect that me experience is just like the experience of the vast majority of hunters. It is the odd crook - from both sides of the fence - that puts a very bad taste in my mouth. | |||
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I agree, you pull the trigger then you pay the fee. In fact, regardless of the outcome, if your PH or guide held up their end of the bargain then you should pay what you agreed to. I'm sure everyone who has been on more than a few guided hunt has paid without seeing a shooter or pulling the trigger. That's hunting... That said, I would not pay one cent if I found out that the hunt was illegal. If you think that is wrong of me so be it, but I see paying for an illegal hunt to be wrong on its own merits. I live by the "Golden Rule" but choose to apply it in both directions. I treat others as I would have them treat me. Treat me well and I'll treat you better, or the contrary. For another real life example that happened to a friend and his dad....They went on a goose hunt with a guide that supposedly had leased the land they set up on. The "No Tresspassing" signs meant nothing because the guide had a lease on the land for hunting rights, right? Well that turned out not to be the case. Long story short, no charges were filed against my friend or his dad because the landowner viewed them as innocent victims......I don't know what ever happened with the guide? So, if I'm understanding your viewpoint correctly, you think they should have paid said guide for this otherwise successful hunt? I can assure you that didn't happen. The question of how could someone have, hypothetically, found out about his hunt being illegal between the time he pulled the trigger and the time he was due to close out his tab, there are infinite possibilities. Someone could have come right out and told him, which could have been substanciated, or not, to answer one of your questions. He could have been looking at a topo map back at camp and noticed that where he shot an animal was out of bounds. He could be thumbing through a game commission regulations book and noticed that the used method of hunting is not a legal method. After taking the shot, the PH/guide could have given him a "let's get our stories straight" talk. He could have found out that his guide was not legally capable of guiding such a hunt, or not a legally licensed guide at all for that matter. Endless possibilities! How reasonable any of this sounds is a non-issue to me. Spend a day in small claims court just listening to the cases and you will hear some of the most unreasonable stories you could imagine. Open up a newspaper, or just look at the front page for that matter, and you are going to read about crime, conspiracy and corruption that seems unreal, not only unreasonable, but it will be replaced the next day with a whole new headline right there in black and white. Unfortunately this type of stuff happens and even more unfortunate is that it happens in the outdoors industry. I don't think that my theory on this is any more ridiculous than anyone elses. We really shouldn't even call our ramblings a theory since we don't have any facts other than what were given on this board, which don't amount to much unless you know the truth behind them. As far as my defense of LP.....not sure where you're getting that idea from. Are you defending Nixon? Why? I could care less if LP or Nixon is the guilty party, or both. I don't know either one of them and doubt I ever will so their squabble means nothing to me. I find the topic itself interesting. Unlike some others I think it is a good subject to discuss even if only in theory. | |||
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If someone tries to sell you a stolen car. How would you react if you find out it is stolen, before you have paid? Would you still pay? If so, what legal implications do you think that would have on your case? regards. fat chicks inc. | |||
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All of this is a hoot in the speculation of folks who were"t there. Bill has said, albeit in bits and pieces, what happened. It had... at least at the begining... nothing to do with wrong cordinates or an "unlicensed" PH. We now have a shifting scenario of "what ifs". I'd hate to base a defense on those. Either Bill didn't shoot the game or he did. Either he gave the checks, laptop, etc. to Nixon or he didn't. As I wrote early on in one of these threads, a good lawyer would tell a client (civil or criminal) to keep his fingers off of a keyboard 'cause once "send" is punched, what you wrote is no longer yours, but the world's. Ask Tiger!  JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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any clients that have personally been guided by Simon Dzingai as there sole PH for elephant, please PM me. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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As a committee member of SOAZ and ZPHGA, I have been following this thread carefully, our concern is not to do with any financial/ banking laws that have been broken, but illegal hunting methods ( namely unlicensed hunters guiding clients onto dangerous game animals ). After what Zim has gone through these past 10 years, we CANNOT sit back and let these crimes go unpunished......meetings are being held in the morning and decisions on this matter will be addressed. Our industry does not need ' attention' , it needs the continued professionalism that has made the Zimbabwean PH stand out from the crowd. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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Saeed, please please pretty please reinstate the emoticon with the little dude eating popcorn.  | |||
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While this does not absolve Bill of any alleged wrongdoing it will be interesting to see how many of Nixon's supporters will admit to hunting with Simon. Remember Martin is only concerned about illegal activity in Zim. There is a post in the hunting Reports that clearly states Simon was the PH for a twin buffalo kill and the start of an elephant hunt. There was no mention of any other PH on the hunt and Nixon was off hunting with another client. I know if I was on an illegal hunt I would be pissed. | |||
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Wasn't there a post recently, which I searched for and could not find, of a client in Zim who was told he hunted in an illegal area and had to pay $ 5,000 cash to avoid jail and get out of Zim? I would like to find the thread to see if it has any relation to this situation. As for Saeed's comment that by in large PHs are honest, this is likely true, but what percentage is not? Or what percentage is situationally "honest". If you drop six figures on a hunt every year and run the most popular African hunting site on the planet, chances are there will be no problems, but if you are on a $6,000 package, and may not ever hunt Africa again, are your chances of getting a little bit hosed greater? And if the number is 1%, 3% or 5%, what about the poor sap who ends up in that small category? Bottom line, in this thread, is that a lot of damage has been done to Nixon's reputation, for valid reasons or not. Lastly, the hunting world is small, and I believe every shady outfitter is well known to be such by others in the hunting community. I have had some well publicized problems with hunts, and without exception, I have heard from multiple sources that the PHs in question already had a reputation for problems, not paying landowners, being wheelerdealers and people "in the know" avoid them. Why doesn't the hunting community speak up? Same reason you don't bad mouth another lawyer, CPA or mechanic- it's just not worth it in the long run, so let the buyer beware. I believe we have had a couple of stellar Zim people post in the various threads that there may be issues with Nixon, but no one has come out and said so in so many words. ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Here's a few sample reasons: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1341034421 http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/8861071621 http://www.cites.org/eng/news/calendar.shtml | |||
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So are we not to discuss this openly because it puts us in a bad light? It seems to me some "attention" is indeed needed. Let the truth prevail and things fall as appropriate regardless of what individuals sides are. I am a big proponent of the truth. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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As for Saeed's comment that by in large PHs are honest, this is likely true, but what percentage is not? Or what percentage is situationally "honest". If you drop six figures on a hunt every year and run the most popular African hunting site on the planet, chances are there will be no problems, but if you are on a $6,000 package, and may not ever hunt Africa again, are your chances of getting a little bit hosed greater? I have been hunting for many years prior to AR existance. My experience has been the same. | |||
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My experience has been pretty much the same. I have never had a written contract up to now. I have always operated on a verbal understanding and a handshake. I will have to think hard about this in the future. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Uh,........is it to late for the shrill Nixon advocates to ask for a "Do Over"? It will be intersting to see how many of Nixons AR supporters will admit to being responsible for directing the spotlite of ZPHGA on him, apologize to him and take some of the reward money they were offering up for Ilamapackers head and send it to Nixon to compensate him for his Zimbabwean legal fees and possible loss of profession. Well done Gents! Whadda favor you've all done good ol' Nixon. | |||
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If Nixon gets in any trouble for allowing his clients to hunt with a non licensed "PH" it is from his own doing. Those who supported him should not feel the need to apologize or offer monetary support. After all, they were acting in good faith. If Nixon has been conducting illegal hunts he should be offering apologies to his supporters. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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The bottom line is this: either Llamapacker signed TCs and reported them stolen, or Nixon stole them from him and forged his name. The issue of who guided who is immaterial in all of this. Hell, it is illegal to shoot buffalo with a .338 in some countries but I know guys who have done it. Think about this: I shoot a buffalo with a .338 in a country that requires a .375 or larger - I didn't have my .416 with me and my PH tells me to do it. Do I have a right now to report my TCs as stolen because I fear a Lacey Act violation? Again, I guarantee if Phifer shot a 50lb ele we would not be hearing about this. Does anyone disagree? If Phifer was guided by a non-licensed PH and shot the wrong ele (I have heard through good sources Nixon was the PH, pointed out the correct ele, and Phifer shot the largest bodied ele, not the one with the bigger tusks), then he has a legitimate bitch. But he shot a lot of other animals as well. And Phifer remains the person who has the most inconsistent stories and bizarre behavior. Do I have a love for Nixon? Never met the guy. But I know what it is like to be disappointed in a hunt. You just pay up and move on. Be a man. This guy is not. | |||
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William Phifer/Llampacker, [COLOR:RED]It appears they are having trouble keeping their story straight. William Phifer, Would it be possible that you could clarify the following points, so that I "get my story straight"?: 1. Did you wire 20K prior to the hunt? Yes or No? 2. Did you wire any additional monies before, during or after the hunt? Yes or no? If yes, How much? 3. Who was your PH during the hunt? Simon, Nixon or any other PH? 4. Did you shoot 2 elephants, 2 buffalo, 1 leopard, 1 giraffe, 1 crocodile and a variety of plains game(impala, klipsspringer, kudu) for bait for leopard/lion? Yes or No? If no, please clarify which animals you shot? 5. Did you sign the TR-2 form that was presented on this forum? Yes or No? 6. Did you give Nixon the 9K TC for partial payment for trophy fees? Yes or No? If you refuse to answer these simple questions, than based on the information your total hunt( daily rate/trophy) fees were $46,460. You paid 20K. Balance due is $26,460. You owe 26K, man up to it and pay it. Thanks, Dale | |||
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I am not sure what the forum is gaining by this continued speculation on this dispute. This is a business deal between two people. The facts are not fully known nor should be on a public forum. Nixon's reputation is trashes as is Phifer's. Ganyana said something that stuck with me in that no one in Zim is sticking up for Nixon or claiming he is a super guy/super outfit. daleW, I am sure you are trying to help out but short of getting on a plane and flying to SLC for a face to face, this is a pretty weak spot to air this out. I hope it gets resolved but doubt that the facts will ever be known outside of Phiffer and Nixon. | |||
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Not that it really matters, but I gather that hypothetically if my home were cold, you decided to warm it up by building a fire, goofed the fire up so badly that it burned my home straight to the ground, you'd not only not be sorry but you'd march up and down the street in front of my ashes and shout about your good intentions? Certainly this is none of my business and I suspect I shouldn't have posted in the first place, but the shrill advocates were warned not to churn up too much dust. They ignored the warnings and now ZPHGA is after Nixon. With booking agents like Duxdog who needs competition? | |||
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For as rabid as you are on this, I can't imagine that you don't have skin in the game of some sort. Packer, all be said there was illegal activity. Either way, coming on here to try to recover payment is rediculous and sign that there is no official channel that can be taken. Why is this being pursued on AR instead of through other means? Hmmm... It has already been stated Nixon has his son guiding illegally. Why would you pay for an illegal hunt if you found out after the fact? Seems akin to buying a car and making payments. Half way through the loan you or the bank finds out the car is stolen, would you keep paying? Not saying if anything illegal happened, I don't know, it was just inferred. If illegal activty did take place and Packer did not know until the end of the hunt, it seems reasonable to discontinue any payment. But again, why is the avenue being pursued an internet chat forum? | |||
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