My go:

Supersonic in tissue is much different than than air, if my basic physics are up to speed.

Physical destruction is what counts, not theoretics, people can absorb lots of energy, but not withstand lots of blood loss too well.

A bullet must penetrate in order damage stuff. 100% penetration is desired in my book, that way any organs along the way (Combat targets are not like paper targets, they squirm. Believe me this is true.)

I always think of "aim for the offside" just like in game hunting, with an imaginary line through the heart.

9mm Ball penetrates like ganbusters, but im my expereince, do not do much damage. Hence the reason for the M9 15+1. I'd rather hit him once, maybe twice with a 45, than have to be more able with a 9mm; it takes time and there may be more thanone needing my attention (Ball ammo, my friends, maybe modern 9mm HPs will do, maybe not). I chose a fighting handgun that starts with a ".4".

I want both, expansionand penetration.

I tested a snubby load for my wife's 38, 125 XTP at about 875fs from a 2 inch barrel, aboslutely no expansion, and only about 50% of the penetration compared to the 158 soft lead SWCHP, at barely 700fs and it expands quite regularly to boot (felt recoil was less as well). She had a serious head injury awhile back and cannot shoot high intensity loads.

Again, biggest bullet diameter, heavy bullet and most velocity, and again, .40 or better!

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew cempa:
My go:

Supersonic in tissue is much different than than air, if my basic physics are up to speed.

Physical destruction is what counts, not theoretics, people can absorb lots of energy, but not withstand lots of blood loss too well.

A bullet must penetrate in order damage stuff. 100% penetration is desired in my book, that way any organs along the way (Combat targets are not like paper targets, they squirm. Believe me this is true.)

I always think of "aim for the offside" just like in game hunting, with an imaginary line through the heart.

9mm Ball penetrates like ganbusters, but im my expereince, do not do much damage. Hence the reason for the M9 15+1. I'd rather hit him once, maybe twice with a 45, than have to be more able with a 9mm; it takes time and there may be more thanone needing my attention (Ball ammo, my friends, maybe modern 9mm HPs will do, maybe not). I chose a fighting handgun that starts with a ".4".

I want both, expansionand penetration.

I tested a snubby load for my wife's 38, 125 XTP at about 875fs from a 2 inch barrel, aboslutely no expansion, and only about 50% of the penetration compared to the 158 soft lead SWCHP, at barely 700fs and it expands quite regularly to boot (felt recoil was less as well). She had a serious head injury awhile back and cannot shoot high intensity loads.

Again, biggest bullet diameter, heavy bullet and most velocity, and again, .40 or better!

Well spoken, and correct!

You'd be wrong here . . .

No penetration required to totally screw up organs. Talk to anyone who's been run over by a bus.

Tissue does react differently than air, and your physics are all screwed up. This is why sound travels faster through water and if you swing a bat at the air you don't get much -- but if it connects the ball takes off. Same with a golf club/ball.

Lighter bullets have less ballistic coefficient, less sectional density. That's why they get less penetration.

But you're correct about large diameter, heavy, and velocity. Seems to be the key to shooting elephants.

William;

We were talking about (handgun) bullets were we not?

If I could carry a bus launcher in my back pocket, I (probably) would.

My personal choice of defensive weapon in Iraq a few years back was an F- or B-something with 500lb JSOWs or JDAMs....

Regards

Not sure of what you meant by the physic stuff. All I said is the speed of sound is different in air than other materials, we agree on that right?

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
You'd be wrong here . . .

No penetration required to totally screw up organs. Talk to anyone who's been run over by a bus.

Tissue does react differently than air, and your physics are all screwed up. This is why sound travels faster through water and if you swing a bat at the air you don't get much -- but if it connects the ball takes off. Same with a golf club/ball.

Lighter bullets have less ballistic coefficient, less sectional density. That's why they get less penetration.

But you're correct about large diameter, heavy, and velocity. Seems to be the key to shooting elephants.

Hmmm interesting take; however the folks that do a lot of shooting into bad humans, and then get to do autopsies on them for their reports seem to disagree. They clearly state that the organs in the human body are extremely flexable and made to change shape and stretch, and are very durable, and can take a surprising amount of damage and still function. It's the big hole in and big out (out being the most effective), that shuts down the human system quicker than anything else. Blood out and air in! They are more concerned,'BECAUSE OF the thousands of shootings they have researched', that they get thru and thru penetration, and do NOT desire they bullets to expand too quickly and create a lack of thru & thru, so the bad guys will stop quicker. If you think this is untrue, tell us how many bad guys YOU have stopped and the details of them. Now, if you were refering to hit's made by a high power rifle, I would agree with you. But NOT with a handgun, or anything else with a velocity of under about 2,000 FPS.

Your dated theory with this bus visial is extremely old stuff, that has been completely disproved many years ago. The bullet would have to be the size of a coffe table to transfer that kind of energy and rear motion to a target.
A handguns velocity simply puts a hole thru an object. The farther THRU the object, the greater the damage. The hole out the back side doing the MOST amount of damage.

i have to agree w DW, its lack of blood pressure or nervous system disruption- only- forquick stops, this means a 45 that doesnt penetrate as far as a 9mm may be less effective, also means 45 being fatter could hit something a 9mm would miss making 45 better. and they teach double tap center mass to stop even with 357 for above reasons and because accuracy decreases as distance decreases.
if no penetration is required for bullets
then obamas stern warnings might work
but maybe willie is rite
mohammed ali would prove and disprove his physics
blows by foreman and the likes have put ali out of the fight( stopped so to speak) but isnt he dying of old age

Over-penetration can be a problem with the 7.62x25 FMJ, going thru walls and car doors.
Here's a good forum regarding use of JHP's in that round, with pix. Looks like excellent functioning of the wolf JHP's:
http://czechpistols82792.yuku....um/viewtopic/id/4981

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Over-penetration can be a problem with the 7.62x25 FMJ, going thru walls and car doors.
Here's a good forum regarding use of JHP's in that round, with pix. Looks like excellent functioning of the wolf JHP's:
http://czechpistols82792.yuku....um/viewtopic/id/4981

Yes I imagine over penetration with that .30 cal. could be a problem, but so can running in front of a bus. With the .45 as was the original subject, the facts are that even though it would be possible, that hitting a subject on the far side has never happened. Thereby far out wieghing the risk of life to an officer, agent, or one of us law abidding citizens, associated with lack of full penetration.

By far the best bullet shape for the surest results, is with a bullet of large caliber; the weight should be a balance that includes all the speed it can muster, AND enough weight for full pentration. The nose would be flat to create a large tube like hole completely thru it's target. The flat meplate of full caliber diameter creates a pulverizing effect for an inch diameter perminate hole to leak fluids and air.
This type of wound has proven to be by far the most effective.
In the hunting world, the Barnes TSX type bullet is the closet thing to create this type of wound in game. Since they are traveling at super sonic velocity this effect is multiplied, but the effect is essentially the same.

Acctually, the physics are pretty simple:
Biggest perminate hole thru & thru, wins every time. No mystery.

Cheers!

Sorry Steve, I am not going to judge people by their political views, you might, but I don't. I was just looking at the content of the post, again, I might be silly here, but humor me please. This forum is about Personal Defense and Concealed Carry, and WSM made a comment about over penetration possibly being an issue, and the response was about hunting! Perhaps you think that over penetration can never be an issue when it comes to personal defense, and if so, I beg to disagree. This is NOT the political forum, and just because the same folks post on both does not mean that the standards that apply on the PF should also apply to this forum. Again, you may disagree.
Peter.

DW, the topic is actually about something different than a 45 because of their large frame size.
I like 45 ACP FMJ.
Penetration is a must, and the 7.62x25 is the only common pistol round that will defeat most bullet-proof vests. My above link to the Wolf JHP is the only testing of penetration by the JHPs that I have seen. Most expanded to about .44 in. The Tokarevs are small enough to fit in a large vest pocket. Those are the reasons why I carry one. I would not use the FMJ in that round for CCW:
The former county sheriff here had a story about someone shooting at a Coke Machine outside a store one night. The bullet went thru the machine, thru the store wall, and crossed two aisles of groceries before stopping. They found an 85 gr FMJ 7.62. That's too much penetration for CCW.
__________________________________



Peter, I would suggest you reread his posts.

Then reread my response to your question "Why are people getting bent out of shape?"
My answer had to do with his temperment, not with his Politics. I thought your comment was about his post to me "PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS". Perhaps there was something else that seemed "bent out of shape"?
Then reread who was concerned about over-penetration--hint: it wasn't WSL.

I certainly agree with the temperament comment! And, no, the "bent out of shape" comment was not aimed at you. I note that you agreed with the over penetration being a possible issue. On your "defeating bullet proof vests" comment, I thought I read somewhere that the FN 5.7 round when loaded for the military will do that as well. Any comments?
Peter.

I'm still not gonna carry a 45 ACP day in, day out . . .

Getting back to "original intent" . . .

Wm.

I still say, everything considered, the most comfortable handgun I have carried is a LW Commander 1911 in 45ACP.

I am wearing one now using a Blackhawk nylon inside the pants holster with a plastic clip, because I am still in my PJ's [Doctors scrub pants that tie around the waist], so if I can carry a 45 in "them" pants....

Wounding is accomplished by two things:
Temporary wound cavity, caused primarily by velocity, both initial and through the target,(Fackler forgive me for over simplifying), and,
Permanent wound cavity, caused by the bullet diameter, and velocity.

To be real, the service calibers aren't that much different. Here are double taps gello results:

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

Penetration numbers are similar, and, the only real jump in permanent wound cavity that would matter is the 10MM, and, the 45 ACP stuff looks pretty good.

It seems, judging from the 9x25 numbers, that the Gold Dots, at high velocity, open up quicker, thus creating a larger permanent wound channel, because the channel is more a cylinder, due to explosive expansion on impact.

It seems that nearly all the service calibers are similar in penetration depth, and wound channel.


In a way, this is a big plus for heavy calibers, with big bullets, at high speed, and hollow points.
For example, you can take a 44 magnum, push a 185 grain bullet @ 1600 fps, and still only get 15" penetration.

That gives you a LOT of room to increase temporary wound cavity by increasing velocity. I do believe there is a huge difference in getting hit with a 1300 fps 125 grain bullet, and, 1725 fps grain bullet, both being hollow points. Yet, if you look at the 9mm and 9X25, the bullet results are nearly the same, as is the penetration.

I think we've all been sold a bill of goods. Keith and Skeeter had the right idea with the .41 Magnum. Bullets between 225-260 grains, at at least 1000 fps.

For me, that means 45 Super, or 10MM in an auto.

I carry a 9mm Kahr PM9 most of the time, since it's better then nothing, it's the most concealable gun for my most common method of carry, and, I'm NOT sold on it's penetration.

I managed to get some HST 147's, and, they go about 14" in gello. If you look at the above table, to alter penetration depth I will really have to go to 147 grain flat points, which I also think would be an excellent carry choice. Still, that would make the wound channel about .37", a lot less then the .70" of a HP. On the other hand, that hole is going to go through the target, and leave two holes.

The bottom line is if I'm carrying a 45 with double tap 230 grain stuff, I should have a .95" wound channel vs. a .70" for the 9MM, and, they are going to be about the same length. I'm not convinced the
9MM is moving fast enough to really effect temporary wound channel size.

However, given a choice, which I don't have yet in Kali, between a .45 ACP 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95" and a 9MM Kahr PM9, 147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"m I'll take the bigger hole, everytime. The Kahr PM 45 is small enough to be just as concealable.

If I could carry a 45 Super Detonics CombatMaster all the time, I'd do it in a second.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh Khrist . . .

That was a rather long, agreement with your own first post. Here is the WM.S.Ladd attention span version:

The PM45 is about the same weight as the Kahr you like, but fires a bigger, heavier bullet. So, you have a .45 ACP that is near the same size as the gun you are carrying. I'd get the .45, if I could in this screwed up state.

I also have a bobbed hammer 360PD, which I think is an excellent carry weapon. However, it's bigger then a PM9, and not as concealable, because of the overall size, and cylinder bulge. However, it's 15 oz weight makes it a much better pocket gun then the 20 oz PM 9.
Also, the 360Pd sort of tops out at 125 grain 9mm Specs, due to the 1.8" barrel.

There was a bar fight at my dad's bar about 30yrs ago in which the main instigator, a really big strapping dude, was shot ONCE in the chest with a 9mm Luger with old factory 115gr lead round nose bullet ammo...nothing fancy like you have today. He dropped at the shot and was DEAD within 10 seconds. The bullet went thru and into the wall. Who needs fancy stuff? That was as basic as it gets and it performed admirably. I guess the Germans knew something about human frailty. Myself, while I have every pistol combination there is......my daily carry is a Ruger LCP in 380 loaded with 95gr Golddots. Light, compact, enough juice to kill anyone and most importantly.....it will be in my pocket when I need it!

All the big dude had to do to stop the 115 grain lead nose bullet was get his arm up. Chances are pretty good it would have deformed, and not penetrated the length of his arm. Most big guys arms are at least 24".
Most rounds penetrate 14", or considerably less with the lighter 9mm HP's.

When I carry a 9mm, I carry 147 grain HP's, or flat points. Just did by the way.
If I was carrying a .380, it would have flat point bullets, or solids.

What the Germans had was good shot placement and penetration.

People kill polar bears and black bears with 22lr, and, elephants with machettes. Doesn't mean it's a great idea, or, that the odds are good...

I guess thats why there is a bunch more in the clip. Besides, the same thing can be said about any cartridge, as even a heavily loaded .45 ain't gonna do any better under those same circumstances. Show me the guy that can take 7 of my .380 95gr Golddots where I have the ability to place them. Big is good, but it's not mandatory. Know your weapon and how to use it....and that is mandatory if you want to live thru a gunfight.

GS

The 147gr 9mm has the most dismal record of performance of most any round over .355, other than 115 9mm Ball, and 38 special 158gr RN lead.

Other than head shots I do not think we ever killed anybody woth 147gr 9mm...

IF I HAD to carry a 9mm and had my choice, I would choose 115gr +p or 124gr +p [or +P+ if my gun would handle it].

I do have some First Hand Experience on the subject.... A Fair Amount of IT...

In a similar vein, in the many years I carried a 9mm (with FMJ), the only sure way to guarentee a stop was to get a CNS hit.

I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of the 9mm. I'd rather carry a 357 any day.
JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
GS

The 147gr 9mm has the most dismal record of performance of most any round over .355, other than 115 9mm Ball, and 38 special 158gr RN lead.

Other than head shots I do not think we ever killed anybody woth 147gr 9mm...

IF I HAD to carry a 9mm and had my choice, I would choose 115gr +p or 124gr +p [or +P+ if my gun would handle it].

I do have some First Hand Experience on the subject.... A Fair Amount of IT...

Ammo's either non-existent around here, or, allocated, and super expensive. I managed to find a bunch of HST 147's cheap. Cheap enough to be plinking ammo. It was that, or nothing at the time. Check that. Silver Bear ball was the same price.

You make an excellent point. I was just looking at some tests of commercial ammo out of a PM 9, and, it seems the Gold Dot Plus P load goes the same speed, or a bit better, then the Corbon 125's in .357 out of my snubby:
Gold Dot 124gr +P
High 1212
Low 1113 *Cold Barrel first rd.fired during test
Avg 1160 ME. 370 ftlbs
es 101
sd 55



Kahr 147 grain HST test
These are Federal 147 HST. All I can say is WOW! .599", and .624" expansion from a bullet only traveling at 927.5 and 929.9 fps with a penetration of 8 1/2" and 8 9/16" out of a 3" barrel. I guess that the longer score lines on the side of the bullet help with the expansion. If the formula to convert wet packs to FBI ballistic gelatin standards is accurate, I'd be happy with this round out of a 3" Kahr PM9 in my area's climate.
The expanded flower was so pretty that as a goof I used the expanded bullet to stamp a flower design on some old leather.
This is a nice low felt recoil round. It's true that the heavier 147 gr. have less felt recoil. It's a slower drawn out pulse. http://usrange.org/smf/index.p...2254.new%3Btopicseen

Which 147 were you using, and, out of which gun?

Trying to find a load for a 3" barrel auto isn't easy.

If I can dig some up, I think the 125 grain Gold Dot would be a better choice, or, just plain old Flat Point American Eagle, in 147 grains, and rely on penetration and shot placement...

Given a choice, I would carry a 45 ACP any day of the week over the Kahr 9mm. However, out here, with our government not issuing CCW's, concealability is more important then power.

PS
San Diego PD have been swearing by the 147 Grain HST. They have reported excellent results, and, are quite happy with it, but, they are shooting it out of full sized guns, and, I suspect are getting much better velocity.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

But when it coms to everyday "carry", I DO carry every day of my life, everywhere except inside the court house and/or the local VA Med facility. As I have a CC license, most of the time at least one of my guns is concealed.

And, yes, I generally carry two of them. A Glock 10m/m loaded with 16 rounds of Black Talon (I still have a goodly supply), and in the right rear pocket of my trousers an S&W Model 940, also loaded with Black Talons.

Likely neither is the "perfect" pistol, but each is roughly 10,000% better than nothing.

I used to carry a Sig P-220 .45ACP (also with Black Talons), and the M940 but the Glock holds so many more rounds in about the same space, I switched.

The only comment I can make here which I feel has any real purpose is to emphasize that in my experience bad guys don't send advance notice of where or when they will try their predatory crap.

As such is true, I don't think there is ANY area that is safe enough to "not carry" in. The object of carry isn't just to protect one's self, or one's family, but to protect society if and when (if ever) one sees some really bad "s--t" go down.

If you are at the restaurant in Kelleen, Texas, or San Diego, or at the dorm at Virgina Tech, someone may really, really, need your help. Or possibly it may happen the next time you go to Safeway's. Hands alone probably won't get the job done. A pistol may not either, but at least there is some chance it may.

Even a single-shot .22 LR handgun may save someone's life. Throwing chalky erasers at the bad guy(s) probably won't.

It's been almost 50 years since I was a LEO in Kalif & had to shoot at anyone, but if I need to someday, I won't have to pray for something more than a dirty finger.

Be glad you do not live in New Jersey. We cannot concealed carry anything.

Have you tried a crossbreed/other holster that spreads the weight across the belt?

Are you using a belt meant for CCW?

Otherwise, I guess a Kahr PM45. It's OK -- the 1911 will have better ergonomics, though.

I've recently started using a shoulder holster under a button down shirt. Eotac makes ones w. velco "dots" under fake buttons already, or you can modify your own. I've found it very comfortable, and surprisingly easy to conceal.