Smallest 45 ACP I own is a Springfield 1911, Ultra Compact. I had a Para Ordnance 1045 for a while. They're too big to carry all the time.

When I'm out in the woods . . . I open carry a Smith 629. No problem. It's open carry, and not every day.

Never been mugged, robbed, or assaulted. That doesn't mean I've never been threatened.

Lately I'm liking the Kahr MK9 Elite, or a Smith Mod 60 in 357 mag. I bobbed the hammer on the Smith because it sticks me IWB.

But even these, I'm leaning toward a pancake holster, external, and a loose shirt, sweater, coat, vest to cover. Open carry is legal and that affects what gets chosen as a carry option.

Most days I just don't carry. Not a threatening neighborhood here.

So, basically what it comes down to is, I haven't figured out a daily carry option that really works. I have a lot of options with a lot of shortcomings.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Smallest 45 ACP I own is a Springfield 1911, Ultra Compact. I had a Para Ordnance 1045 for a while. They're too big to carry all the time.

......

William,

Try one of these with your Springfield 1911:

http://www.comp-tac.com/produc...c0rpknt66f56f6a96nt0

My son carries a 5" 45 Kimber all the time with one and says its confortable all day!

The most comfortable handgun I have ever carried is a Colt Commander [the one most people call Lightweight], in a G.WM.Davis, or Milt Sparks Summer Special, IWB.

I always buy my pants 2 inches bigger to accomodate the pistol.

I carry a N Frame S&W in a Milt Sparks Summer Special, when I carry that revolver as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Smallest 45 ACP I own is a Springfield 1911, Ultra Compact. I had a Para Ordnance 1045 for a while. They're too big to carry all the time.
......Lately I'm liking the Kahr MK9 Elite, or a Smith Mod 60 in 357 mag. I bobbed the hammer on the Smith because it sticks me IWB.
.

Lay the Ultra on the table and put that Model 60 on top of it. You might be suprised how similiar those two pistols are in overall dimensions. Biggest difference will be the 10 oz in weight that the Ultra has on the 60 and the shape differences. The bobbed hammer of your 60 makes it a great pocket gun and you may consider a pocket holster for it simply to keep the lint out and keep it upright in your pocket.
For belt carry, it's a toss up that depends entirely on holster selection, not the pistol. For me, Galco's fit very well and I can carry a 5" 1911 with a Galco Concealable very easily under shirt or jacket. I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP .45 in a kydex paddle daily under a light shirt and it presents zero issues for me. That may not be true for the next guy.

There are no easy answers here. Experimentation is the key. I would start with the pistol you prefer and can shoot and reload the best. Then, start experimenting with holsters. If your daily attire includes having your shirt tucked in and no jacket, you'll have to start with pocket holsters and tuckables. If not, the sky is the limit.
If you want to carry daily, you have to accept the fact that you may have a box of holsters that simply didn't work out in the corner of the closet. Pistol/holster combo's are like women-reality only sets in after it has been riding your butt 12 hours a day for a couple weeks. Is it worth it? Only you can say.

ChetNC

quote:

The most comfortable handgun I have ever carried is a Colt Commander [the one most people call Lightweight], in a G.WM.Davis, or Milt Sparks Summer Special, IWB.

I carry one every day, all day, in an Andrews IWB, almost identical to a Sparks summer special. Don't even notice it.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Smallest 45 ACP I own is a Springfield 1911, Ultra Compact. I had a Para Ordnance 1045 for a while. They're too big to carry all the time.

When I'm out in the woods . . . I open carry a Smith 629. No problem. It's open carry, and not every day.

Never been mugged, robbed, or assaulted. That doesn't mean I've never been threatened.

Lately I'm liking the Kahr MK9 Elite, or a Smith Mod 60 in 357 mag. I bobbed the hammer on the Smith because it sticks me IWB.

But even these, I'm leaning toward a pancake holster, external, and a loose shirt, sweater, coat, vest to cover. Open carry is legal and that affects what gets chosen as a carry option.

Most days I just don't carry. Not a threatening neighborhood here.

So, basically what it comes down to is, I haven't figured out a daily carry option that really works. I have a lot of options with a lot of shortcomings.

I face this issue, with more problems, since in Kali, where I live, I can't get a CCW.

I find weight a really important factor. My first choice is in thunderwear, my 45 Detonics combat master, shooting 45 Super. It's HEAVY, and, if it's hot, the gun that gets the call is the Kahr PM 9.
It's light, flat, and disappears.

IF I lived in a free state, I'd have a serious look at the 20 oz Kahr PM 45. Can't get one here, but, I'd certainly look at that against the PM 9, and, my next step might be to find a PM40, which I think is on the approved list.

I also have a 360PD, with a bobbed hammer, and my own cutdown grips, for throwing in light clothing, and pockets. While light, it's not as flat as the kahr, and, the 1 7/8 inch barrel makes most .357 loads
.38 Plus P.

It's loaded with 148 grain HP's from Fioochi, at 1131 fps out of that tiny barrel. I'd like to have a 3" barrel to actually use the 357.

For last resort, you might consider a Beretta in 22 short or long....

I'd like to have one of these:
http://www.kahr.com/dtlspec_pm4543.html
with 200-230 grain flat nose bullets.

I have a Ruger SP 101 that I had customized years ago. It has the 2 7/8" bbl, MagnaPorted, action job that feels like a Python, and the hammer is bobbed. Looks like a factory hammer. Load it with 125 grain Federals.

Here in Central Florida, with 95 degree days, I usually wear a pair of Cabela's walking shorts and a T shirt. The Ruger fits perfectly in a front pocket and has come in very handy several times. It's extremely accurate, also. Nailed a 200 lb hog with it at 45 yards a few years ago. No muzzle jump at all. Hogue grips soak up the recoil and fits like a glove. Great summer gun. But it's LOUD!

My "not carrying" gun has been a KelTec .32 for the last several years.

I stays with me even when carrying the "real deal".

quote:

always buy my pants 2 inches bigger to accomodate the pistol.

are you sure its just to fit the pistol in??

I carry every day - but usually carry a Kahr PM9, either IWB (high noon split decision) or pocket (high noon pocket grabber). It fits better, can disappear in dress pants, shorts, and with the tuckable IWB, is hidden under a tucked in polo or whatever.

I sometimes carry a Sig P-220 Stainless Elite, sometimes my fullsize 1911 - both in high noon "down unders" - basically a milt sparks summer special. Either conceals under an untucked shirt just fine. As does a Colt Officer's Model, my glock 19, and a Ruger Security Six .357.

But - for day in, day out comfort, I have to say the small 9mm is better for me. I guess if I lived and worked somewhere with real threats, I'd probably tote the Sig all the time. I do IDPA with it, and it works every time. with +p 230 gr TAP, 8+1 in the P220 and a spare mag, I'd feel pretty good taking on what have you. That just isn't that reasonable a concern out in suburban CT, where I live and work, so a little 9mm is my daily companion, and the bigger .45 ACPs only come out when I feel like it.

If I was really worried, I'd be carrying my Mossburg 500 and my FN/FAL in a golf bag over my shoulder.

Trading comfort for caliber has never made sense to me. I live in a small Florida town, but there are some rowdies around here that cause problems for the cops, according to the cops. Just because you're not in downtown Detroit, IMHO, is no reason to scale down, because, regardless of your surroundings, when the SHTF, I'd want to blow the biggest hole(s) possible in the MIQ. (Mugger In Question.) Therefore, I always carry the Commander and also occasionally the Ruger.

Benign surroundings doesn't at all mean that an actual threat will be any more benign than one encountered in the Combat Zone.

jetdrvr

You are absolutely correct.

The smallest primary carry gun I have ever toted has been a 1911, or a S&W N Frame 44 Mag or 45 ACP/Auto Rim. And I NEVER EVER leave the house with only one handgun. NEVER.

I have Galco holsters coming out of my ears, a couple for every handgun I own, and I own a LOT of handguns.

I carried the Springfield Ultra Compact in a Galco "slide" -- which is basically a wide strap on the belt. Didn't care for "cocked & locked" w/o a hammer strap so I got a Galco pancake for the gun, with the strap. A also have a Galco IWB for this rig. It "works" OK, but not day in day out. It's just big/heavy.

Full size 1911 "Mil Spec" -- couple pancake holsters and even the military issue Army holster (nice in the field).

I have a 5" Springfield XD Tactical "Compact" (short grip option) in 45 ACP. That comes with a "Fobus" -- which works fine under a sweatshirt, vest or jacket.

Uzi Baby Eagle compact w/ a pancake holster. It's "OK."

Galco IWB and pancake for the Smith 60. I'll carry the Smith in a jacket pocket.

Kramer horsehide IWB for the Kahr MK9. That's one of my favorites. I carry the Kahr in a pocket too.

All sorts of holsters for K Frames, Smith 629, Ruger Security Six, Makarov, some other stuff.

NAA Guardian 32 ACP in a pocket holster that keeps it positioned and breaks up the "print."

-- It's not like I don't have lots of options. I just haven't found a 45 ACP I want to pack around all day long. (And DON'T tell me to get a Glock!)

I think there's a market for a single stack, 45 ACP, single/double action, NARROW, in polymer, but it's NOT the Glock 30.

Wm.

If a 1911 Commnder [Lightweight] in 45 ACP, cocked and locked is too big a gun, and you cannot "do" cocked and locked [ and that is no slight, or critism, toward you, as I know several full time SWAT guys that cannot do cocked and locked], then look at one of the subcompact 9mm's, or a small S&W revolver.

As long as you are comfortble with what you carry, then do not worry about it.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Trading comfort for caliber has never made sense to me. I live in a small Florida town, but there are some rowdies around here that cause problems for the cops, according to the cops. Just because you're not in downtown Detroit, IMHO, is no reason to scale down, because, regardless of your surroundings, when the SHTF, I'd want to blow the biggest hole(s) possible in the MIQ. (Mugger In Question.) Therefore, I always carry the Commander and also occasionally the Ruger.

Benign surroundings doesn't at all mean that an actual threat will be any more benign than one encountered in the Combat Zone.

Careful, Depends. Florida cops know you are trolling for a shooting. You have been doing too much anti-social posting. Your lawyer is gonna end up having to read all your posts while he prepares your defence if you shoot someone. At $300+ per hour. How're you gonna explain to him how you got the nickname "Depends?"

Brucie . . . don't you ever get tired of being a fuggin' troll?

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Brucie . . . don't you ever get tired of being a fuggin' troll?

Nawwwwwwwwwwwwww. B/c you're new let me tell you about it.

When I came here in 2001 I was ganged up on and almost the entire political forum tried driven to drive me out. My "offence"? Expressing a minor disappointment with dubya's policies - very minor on the first occasion. Rants and flames started up and as many as three threads a day yelling at me to f/o. Same thing happened to the euros - there used to be a lot more of them than there are now. US guys openly bragged that they were going to drive off every "liberal" and every non-American, and they said up front that it didn't matter whether they did so with truth or falsehoods, threats or misery, as long as it was unpleasant. Half a dozen or more viruses would arrive in an evening. Physical threats were made by guys claiming to be US cops. I tried from time to time to post positively and just ignore the unpleasantness but my posts would be deliberately distorted.

It became obvious that I had two choices. Be run off, or accept the challenge and fight back. I decided to fight back and I've been successful. In general I pick on two things. Bullies, and posts that strike me as silly, childish and/or harmful to my opinion of how the gun owning public should be seen. It might not be evident to you that I pick on bullies. You have entered mid-fight and don't know who started what. If a guy posts at AR and does not attack me I generally don't attack them, other than to the extent that we all trade blows.

I have learned something that surprises me. Either America is a far more dangerous and violent culture than I imagined, or many guys here look for trouble and represent a far more dangerous and violent segment of US culture than I imagined. I still am not sure which, no doubt a combination. To a limited extent it mitigates some of what I perceive to be the extremism I sense in US gun posters. Some of it might actually be justified. However its a chicken and egg proposition. I believe that people like Depends and others actually troll for muggers hoping to set up a justifiable homicide. As a shooter I think that is sick. It threatens the continued existence of the shooting sports and is something the voting public is unwilling to tolerate. Canada and the US are close enough that it effects us too. In other words I have a dog in the fight.

Why do I continue? Two reasons. It has become a habit. It is fun. Read the political forum - guys say all the time that the tussle is fun, and its fun for me too. Why here, you ask? This is just an extension of the political forum. Same guys, same silliness. Same targets, same season. AR provides many real good belly laughs, and I have made more friends here that most assholes would want to admit. So please, laugh when you see something funny and don't take it personal.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
I have Galco holsters coming out of my ears, a couple for every handgun I own, and I own a LOT of handguns.

I carried the Springfield Ultra Compact in a Galco "slide" -- which is basically a wide strap on the belt. Didn't care for "cocked & locked" w/o a hammer strap so I got a Galco pancake for the gun, with the strap. A also have a Galco IWB for this rig. It "works" OK, but not day in day out. It's just big/heavy.

Full size 1911 "Mil Spec" -- couple pancake holsters and even the military issue Army holster (nice in the field).

I have a 5" Springfield XD Tactical "Compact" (short grip option) in 45 ACP. That comes with a "Fobus" -- which works fine under a sweatshirt, vest or jacket.

Uzi Baby Eagle compact w/ a pancake holster. It's "OK."

Galco IWB and pancake for the Smith 60. I'll carry the Smith in a jacket pocket.

Kramer horsehide IWB for the Kahr MK9. That's one of my favorites. I carry the Kahr in a pocket too.

All sorts of holsters for K Frames, Smith 629, Ruger Security Six, Makarov, some other stuff.

NAA Guardian 32 ACP in a pocket holster that keeps it positioned and breaks up the "print."

-- It's not like I don't have lots of options. I just haven't found a 45 ACP I want to pack around all day long. (And DON'T tell me to get a Glock!)

I think there's a market for a single stack, 45 ACP, single/double action, NARROW, in polymer, but it's NOT the Glock 30.

There is just the gun you suggest, here:

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_45acp_pm.html
http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_tr070808.html

About the same weight, as the Kahr 9mm.

The only 45 ACP Kahr for Kali is this one, considerably larger then the PM45:

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_45acp_p.html

So, they do make them, and, the 3" Kimber Ultra Carry, though questionable in reliability is about the same weight, loaded, and, if not for the stupid beavertail, and external hammer, would be nearly as concealable.

I really like the Kahr MK9 Elite. And I can stick a spare mag in my pocket. If that's not enough to take care of business, I'm in the wrong business.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
I really like the Kahr MK9 Elite. And I can stick a spare mag in my pocket. If that's not enough to take care of business, I'm in the wrong business.

Problem is, the smallest guy that ever assaulted me was about 230-250, and, about 5 others have been over that. I wouldn't shoot a 250 pound hog or deer with a 9mm, unless I'm using 147 grain solid flat points, which I need to test for carry.

I would feel much safer with 45 ACP, 200 grain or 230 grain Flat points. I have heard that 200 grain speer flying ashtrays were very effective, proven by the police, when loaded to 1200 fps. However, penetration tests indicate they tend to penetrate around 12-14 inches, and, I'm not sure that's deep enough.

I carry, sometimes, a Detonics Combatmaster setup for 230 grain 45 Super, and, an full sized 45 super Kimber Custom II.

When I can't, I carry the Kahr PM9, or 357 magnum 360 PD. Given a choice, I'd rather carry 45 ACP, since the 9mm is effective, but, it's a better submachinegun round, with multiple taps, I think, and, I think that's where it shines.

Six decades and I've never been in a confrontation. Maybe it's an attitude. Maybe it's where I chose to recreate.

whatever...

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Six decades and I've never been in a confrontation. Maybe it's an attitude. Maybe it's where I chose to recreate.

I wish I could say that. Last time I was walking my dog in front of my apartment in a decent Miami Lakes neighborhood, as outlined in a previous post. Shit happens, and a benign environment is no guarantee that it won't happen there.

personally, I prefer the minor inconvenience a P14 might occasionally cause me to the other option a smaller, less capable handgun might result in. What's up with this "it's too big, it's too heavy, I can't handle it..." schtick?
A model 29 is a real lightweight? Stay home.

Rich

I have a Kimber Ultra CDP II that is about the same size as the Springfield. It has been my carry gun for a few years now and I like it. I tried a S&W Mod 60 but found that it was no smaller than the 45. I am currently looking at the Kel Tec PF9 as an option for carrying.

I tend to carry an old Tokarev 7.62x25 more than one of my 45's. Energy and penetration are both higher than the 45's. Very light-weight. Carry on half-cock.

These picts compare a Taurus P45 (lighter than a 1911) and a Tokarev:





I believe the FMJ's in this round will out-penetrate any other easily available handgun round. Over-penetration could be a problem in some instances.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
whatever...

The sign of true ignorance is to blame a president for the actions of Congress. As long as we focus on the figure head, and don't cut off the Hydras, we will have an oligarchy, and worse. Stupid, ignorant, and illiterate are NOT attractive, or sexy.

W T F ? ? ?

quote:

I believe the FMJ's in this round will out-penetrate any other easily available handgun round. Over-penetration could be a problem in some instances.

Bone up on your physics:

When the bullet "penetrates" out the back side of the target, it takes all that "extra energy" out the back side of the target with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

I believe the FMJ's in this round will out-penetrate any other easily available handgun round. Over-penetration could be a problem in some instances.

Bone up on your physics:

When the bullet "penetrates" out the back side of the target, it takes all that "extra energy" out the back side of the target with it.

Do you hunt much???? Two holes are better than one -- they leak a whole lot more.......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

I believe the FMJ's in this round will out-penetrate any other easily available handgun round. Over-penetration could be a problem in some instances.

Bone up on your physics:

When the bullet "penetrates" out the back side of the target, it takes all that "extra energy" out the back side of the target with it.

Do you hunt much???? Two holes are better than one -- they leak a whole lot more.......

You could read up on the physiology of gunshot trauma in HUMANS --

It's not about "bleeding out" . . . It's about traumatic tissue and organ damage in the wound channel and surrounding structures.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
whatever...

The sign of true ignorance is to blame a president for the actions of Congress. As long as we focus on the figure head, and don't cut off the Hydras, we will have an oligarchy, and worse. Stupid, ignorant, and illiterate are NOT attractive, or sexy.

W T F ? ? ?

His comment to you was the "whatever" part. He just got tired of your assinine, self-important comments quicker than the rest of us did.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

I believe the FMJ's in this round will out-penetrate any other easily available handgun round. Over-penetration could be a problem in some instances.

Bone up on your physics:

When the bullet "penetrates" out the back side of the target, it takes all that "extra energy" out the back side of the target with it.

Sorry, but just had to reply to this one!
First off, a pistol bullet does not hit the 2,000 fps mark which creates hydoshock that transmits this so called energy to living tissue. The energy it does have, does NOTHING to a body other than put a hole thru it. A hole out the other side simply adds damage to the body and let's 3 times the blood out, and air in. This alone does more to shut down a persons hydrolics then anything else. It may not be so much phisics as it is common sense.
This energy theory has be dispelled years ago by those that have been there and done that. But the armchair know it all's are still at it I see!
Read the FBI's latest report on handgun stopping power, and then let's talk. They promote penetration over all else. And, it's just good reading. That will give you something to do for awhile.

Side note. I have a good friend that was shot 5 times in the torso and once in the head with a 9mm and hollow points. He felt not much more then a little tug at each shot, though all the bullets except for the one to the head remained in his body. He's alive and well, and rides his Harley. A bullet from a handgun is nothing more then a paper punch for people and game. The bigger the hole, the quicker the fluids that keep you alive drain out. And a hole all the way thry drains out quicker. Thats simple math!

Actually I believe that in a human target the more "secondary" projectiles...that's the bits of jacket that break off and fly around inside like little razor blades...the better.

Why? Because the increase the chance of cutting a major blood vessel or puncturing a life vital organ.

So high velocity with a FRAGMENTING, in other words a hollow point, that throws off pieces of the petal, bullet is best. FMJ at any velocity is worst.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Actually I believe that in a human target the more "secondary" projectiles...that's the bits of jacket that break off and fly around inside like little razor blades...the better.

Why? Because the increase the chance of cutting a major blood vessel or puncturing a life vital organ.

So high velocity with a FRAGMENTING, in other words a hollow point, that throws off pieces of the petal, bullet is best. FMJ at any velocity is worst.

Not always so. If a bullet is fragile enough to break up in a human body, then it may be be tough enough to pass thru heavy outer clothing and penetrate thru the body and vital organs. It works the same way on a game animal. A large hole is always prefered, but not at the cost of lack of penetration. Again, read the FBI results from hundreds of actual shootings; not an armchair theory of what happens, but acctual results. They determined that a flat point bullet that makes full penetration of large diameter, is better then a fast expanding bullet that stops in the subject. Too much of a chance of not reaching the vitals. I have had the same results on game animals. Unless of course the animal is extremely small and the fast projectile blows the animal to pieces, but as I said, at least 2,000 fps has to be reached for this to happen; as with a high power rifle.
Yes a fragmenting bullet MAY stop someone quicker if all is just right, and the vitals are hit by a fragment that otherwise is missed, however a big thru & thru is much more certain. Especially if having to pass thru a heavy jacket or other item before the subjects vitals.
Cheers!

Hmm! I have not been following this thread but just noticed that it is on the Personal Defense and Concealed Carry Forum. Therefore, hunting issues might not be relevant ie. over penetration COULD indeed be a problem in some instances as Wm Ladd stated. Why are people getting bent out of shape?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Hmm!...Why are people getting bent out of shape?
Peter.

Peter,
To get a better idea of WSL's temperment, take a look at some of his posts on the next forum (Political Forum).

Hollowpoint bullets, particularly handgun calibers are designed to mushroom at about 1000 fps.

Any decent defense handgun caliber is capable of 1000 fps. 1000 fps is more or less the speed of sound. When a bullet, or a plane for that matter, reaches supersonic speed it creates a shock wave in front of it.

When that wave hits the target -- it messes up organ function. In the medical business that's called "vasogenic shock." You can look it up on Google.

You might not agree with my politics, but you're not going to BS me when it comes to shooting, ballistics, etc.

Except 1000 fps isn't making that shock wave.