quote:

Read through the Nicene Creed which was defined around 335 A.D.

Oh, are you referring to the Council of Nicea, where the VOTED on thinks like if Jesus was a man or god, and was Mary a virgin?

The council of Nicea took a look at all the heretical and other propositions which had developed in and around the Church. They considered what had been proposed and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit ("I am always with you") presented a basic definition of the Church's beliefs. The virginity of Mary, always believed, was a function of Christ being true man and True God. The former requires being born of a woman. Since original sin is inherited through an ordinary birth of us mammals there had to be an interruption of the passed-on original sin process. Thus the use of Mary after she had been prepared for the purpose.

11 pages and yet we still have not solved the differences in religious belief of creationism....hmm imagine that.

To fight one is to deny the other, to deny the other is to ignore your own.



The three Abrahamic religions.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
11 pages and yet we still have not solved the differences in religious belief of creationism....hmm imagine that.

That might be because the thread is about the history of tools, there, Ace.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
11 pages and yet we still have not solved the differences in religious belief of creationism....hmm imagine that.

That might be because the thread is about the history of tools, there, Ace.

Since the 3rd page little if any is about TOOLS other than tools talking about religion versus creationism...

Anything human in the sense of what we are doesn't go back a million years. Sea otters have a knack for whacking clams or oysters on flat rocks on their chests while swimming on their backs. I'm sure odd bipedal critters did all sorts of things way back when. And don't trust claimed dates as those are partly a matter of philosophical and other politics. It also makes for good reading where editors are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
To fight one is to deny the other, to deny the other is to ignore your own.

The three Abrahamic religions.

I think they are all out in left field.
I suspect the Mormons would take offense to being left out.

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
Anything human in the sense of what we are doesn't go back a million years. Sea otters have a knack for whacking clams or oysters on flat rocks on their chests while swimming on their backs. I'm sure odd bipedal critters did all sorts of things way back when. And don't trust claimed dates as those are partly a matter of philosophical and other politics. It also makes for good reading where editors are concerned.

I am sure your judgement & wisdom is superior to the rest of us.After all you can explain everything with out the help of science.

The judgment of sea otters on how to crack open shellfish is about as scientific as you can get. Involves getting a hard surface, laying it upon one's chest, swimming on the back, using a grip or vise (paws) plus kinetic energy to overcome hardness, tensile, or compressive qualities of the shellfish. Not only that, GOD told the otters how to do it, I betcha.

There are probably a couple hundred people on this site who know something of this sea otter behavior. We appreciate your views on our judgment and wisdom. Thank you from us and the otters. Would you like a raw oyster?

quote:

Since original sin is inherited through an ordinary birth of us mammals there had to be an interruption of the passed-on original sin process. Thus the use of Mary after she had been prepared for the purpose.

So, are the otters going to Hell?

quote:

They considered what had been proposed and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit ("I am always with you")

Pretty interesting how the Holy Spirit guided the vote. Pretty interesting how the cannons didn't include any of the Gnostic text, which essentially proclaim that man does not need the central church.

Kind of reminds a guy of how all the later Church corruption lead to the Protistant Reformation. So if the Holy Spirit is always with these ancient church leaders, why were they so corrupt?

quote:

I got no dog in this fight, but *what* southern cross does the video refer to? The only one I'm aware of would not be visible to the cultures discussed here.

The southern cross portion of his interpertation doens't work for my either, since the Egyption empire of the time did not extend south of the equator. The orions belt portion makes sence, especially since the three great pyramids are aligned to it.

From Donald R. Prothero's book; Evolution, What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters.

Christian evolutionary biologist Ken Miller of Brown University, Who had beaten all the Institute for Creation Research (IRC) debaters many times, provides an insight. In his book,Finding Darwins God (1999;172), he discribes an encounter with Henry Morris, whom he had just beated in debate the night before. He asked Morris about his discredited positions, and said, " Do you actually believe all this stuff?" Morris replied,"You don't realize what is at stake. In a question of such importance, scientific data aren't the ultimate authority. Scripture tells us what the right conclusion is. And if science, momentarily ,doesn't agree with it, then we have to keep working untill we get the right answer. But I have no doubts as to what that answer will be" (Miller 1999; 172)
Morris may be sincere and believe he is serving god. But he could not have provided a more chilling indictment of the narrow self righteousness, fanaticism, and antiscientific attitude that is creationism

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
[QUOTE]"...

quote:

Pretty interesting how the Holy Spirit guided the vote.

Of course. That's his job.

quote:

Pretty interesting how the cannons didn't include any of the Gnostic text,...

To best odd recollection this is declared non-authoritative or heretical.

quote:

...which essentially proclaim that man does not need the central church.

That is screamin' neccid heresy. Pentecost, among other things, and further remarks about obeying your bishops, etc, is all about obedience in a divinely established church.

quote:

Kind of reminds a guy of how all the later Church corruption lead to the Protistant Reformation.

Almost sorta-kinda. The same thing happens today with persecution of those who support the Latin Mass which was extirped and repressed by a crowd of demon possessed lemmings (the bishops) on a worldwide basis despite the fact that the use of the quasi-heretical Novus Ordo Mass was not intended to totally displace the other. In the parlance of the unreleased Fatima prophesy's Third secret, this is due to a demonic disorientation of the Church which was anticipated since a revelation in the late 19th century, made to a Pope, and which predicted a forthcoming demonic challenge to the church.

However, separated from the Divienly established Father/Pope, all Protestantism descended into brutality and fragmentation against itself as well as among various nations which were Catholic. Speaking of corruption, read some "Reformation" history of England. Also read why Methodism came into existence.

quote:

So if the Holy Spirit is always with these ancient church leaders, why were they so corrupt?

There is corruption from time to time in varying degrees throughout all human organizations. However God will protect the Church, or as it is said, a "...fragment, saved out of grace" in a worst case scenario in end times. In all this the issue is not just behavior, it is a matter of preaching God's truth. The Catholic church has that truth and whatever the faults of it's population that truth is there eternally preached - unless you are in Nazi Germany or Russia in certain periods (such as today's Russia) or Red China. Do some reading of Jesse Jerkoff Jackson if you're interested in another type of corruption or maybe some of the popular TV Protestant preacher of the late 80's who got into some really juicy scandals, if you like white stuff.

quote:

That is screamin' neccid heresy. Pentecost, among other things, and further remarks about obeying your bishops, etc, is all about obedience in a divinely established church.

So, not obeying the Bishop who tells you to give the Church 10% of your income is heresy.

Funny how that works.

It's interesting to me that you are unable to see the conflicts of interest when the "holy spirit guided the vote."

And help me understand what you mean by "if you like white stuff"?

Is that some kind of a reference to the clan or Racism?

quote:

However God will protect the Church

Really?
How are those recent scandles working out for you?
1.2 billion and counting. Are you still giving at the plate to help pay for this?

What's happening to your membership in the US and Europe?

quote:

In the parlance of the unreleased Fatima prophesy's Third secret, this is due to a demonic disorientation of the Church which was anticipated since a revelation in the late 19th century, made to a Pope, and which predicted a forthcoming demonic challenge to the church.

unreleased...prophesy's third secret
Just when I didn't think you agruments could get any more obscure, weak and circular, you resort to a church doctrine that is unreleased and secret.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

That is screamin' neccid heresy. Pentecost, among other things, and further remarks about obeying your bishops, etc, is all about obedience in a divinely established church.

quote:

So, not obeying the Bishop who tells you to give the Church 10% of your income is heresy.
Funny how that works.

Name the bishop. Do you know what you're talking about as regards Catholics?

quote:

It's interesting to me that you are unable to see the conflicts of interest when the "holy spirit guided the vote."

So tell us about the conflicts.

quote:

And help me understand what you mean by "if you like white stuff"?

Is that some kind of a reference to the clan or Racism?

Jesse Jerkoff Jackson on one side and Tammy Fae Bakker & Co. on the other, for instance.

quote:

However God will protect the Church

Really?

quote:

How are those recent scandles working out for you?

"scandals". No better than Jesse Jackson's bastard daughter who is now about eleven years old, or his son's screwing a white woman (by whom he may have a bastard - but no one talks of it except in the vaguest hints as it isn't politically correct to complain about protected classes). As Christ said, "It is inevitable that scandals come but woe unto those to whom they come". How do you like them?

quote:

1.2 billion and counting. Are you still giving at the plate to help pay for this?

Is there some sort of question or special problem here we should be aware of? This is a rather vague comment which doesn't seem toahve a foundation or seems to be going anywhere.

What's happening to your membership in the US and Europe?

quote:

In the parlance of the unreleased Fatima prophesy's Third secret, this is due to a demonic disorientation of the Church which was anticipated since a revelation in the late 19th century, made to a Pope, and which predicted a forthcoming demonic challenge to the church.

unreleased...prophesy's third secret
Just when I didn't think you agruments could get any more obscure, weak and circular, you resort to a church doctrine that is unreleased and secret. [/QUOTE]

quote:

Is there some sort of question or special problem here we should be aware of? This is a rather vague comment which doesn't seem toahve a foundation or seems to be going anywhere.

That's how much the US Catholic church has paid out in legal settlements for having sex with children. In reality JJ is little more then a democrate operative and deserves neither the title of pastor, nor any respect from the american people.

So, the holy ghost is always with them.
It unerringly guided the vote on proper church doctrine.
But it cannot guide it's own priest NOT TO HAVE SEX WITH CHILDREN. And then this same holy spirit guide the church leaders to relocate the offending priests to Alaskan Iniut village where the priest can have MORE SEX WITH CHILDREN.

As for Jessie Jackson, last time I checked he is a pastor, not a priest, so he's not Catholic. And unless you are somekind of a racist, I fail to see the relevance of the color of his mistress.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
What's happening to your membership in the US and Europe?

quote:

In the parlance of the unreleased Fatima prophesy's Third secret, this is due to a demonic disorientation of the Church which was anticipated since a revelation in the late 19th century, made to a Pope, and which predicted a forthcoming demonic challenge to the church.

unreleased...prophesy's third secret
Just when I didn't think you agruments could get any more obscure, weak and circular, you resort to a church doctrine that is unreleased and secret.

You don't have much reading experience in human history and certainly not of the western world and Christianity.

The Christian nature of Europe is disintegrating in most nations for an assortment of reasons which were also found, in commonly cited examples, in Greece and Rome. Tell me some caustic comments you have used to describe the decline of these empires. Toss in the Persians and maybe the Mayans as well. Use lotsa science in your analysis. Incidentally, God avenges himself upon nations and peoples often using them against each other - or in simply removing the protective veil which has kept us from being nuked or moslemified. This ntion, which has about fiftyfive million abortions on its bloody hands, is headed for at least a limited nuclear war.

Since you know absolutely nothing of the Catholic Church from Catholic readings anything cited to you is obscure and heretofore secret. Why don't you read up on the Fatima apparitions as presented by a Father Gruner, who is himself persecuted within the Church who Masonic or Satanic elements in the Vatican are preventing the Pope from fulfilling a particular consecration?

Be that as it may I have answered your shallow commentaries with short answers which indicate there is a substance behind Church organization and thinking. Yes, Christ did establish a church and this is indicated in a strange and unknown (to you) document known as the Bible. The council of Nicea dealt with the Gnostic or other gospels which were referenced in preachings of the time. Apparently you think they are authoritative. Fine. The Council and 98% of Protestantism accepts that they aren't. I have generally given a short answer to your comments many of which are just backbiting and in themselves non-substantive where doctrine or dogma are concerned. You should broaden your readings. If your level of "scientific method" shown here were applied to actual science you would be a perpetrator of the Piltdown hoax.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
[QUOTE]Is there some sort of question or special problem here we should be aware of? This is a rather vague comment which doesn't seem toahve a foundation or seems to be going anywhere.

quote:

That's how much the US Catholic church has paid out in legal settlements for having sex with children. In reality JJ is little more then a democrate operative and deserves neither the title of pastor, nor any respect from the american people.

His "ordination" consisted, according to a recent radio report on WLS Chicago, was "conferred'; upon him which is to say it was given like an honorary degree, I guess.

quote:

So, the holy ghost is always with them.
It unerringly guided the vote on proper church doctrine.

But it cannot guide it's own priest NOT TO HAVE SEX WITH CHILDREN.

This sentence is silly and immature. It has nothing to do with free will to do evil or the inherently corrupt nature of Man who suffers from original sin. The Ten commandments tell us to do or not do all sorts of things and the Church fleshes it out further. But that doesn't keep everyone from rejecting all that and going their own way anyway. There are plenty of people advocating fornicating with children. Try NAMBLA.

quote:

And then this same holy spirit guide the church leaders to relocate the offending priests to Alaskan Iniut village where the priest can have MORE SEX WITH CHILDREN.

I haven't heard of that one. However Archbishop (now Cardinal) Law of Boston (or wherever) was the one who did a lot of that shuckin' an' jivin' with fruit priests (if I recall) and he was promoted and immediately sent to Rome where he will spend the rest of his life as a glorified and titled pastor of an Italian church. Otherwise he would have been arrested here and subjected to civil and criminal actions for knowingly and stupidly sending fag priest to other parishes, or whatever it was he did that resulted in more fruitish indulgence among the population.

quote:

As for Jessie Jackson, last time I checked he is a pastor, not a priest, so he's not Catholic. And unless you are somekind of a racist, I fail to see the relevance of the color of his mistress.

Your need to kick Catholics makes the above sound like you don't care if Protestants do the same thing as Catholics, and believe me, it happens on just as large a scale (even among Jews) but no one hates them the way they do the Catholic Church. Obviously you are expecting a higher standard of behavior from Catholics than Protestants - right? So it is unreported and occasionally an article appears in the Chicago Tribune in which Protestants bemoan the fact that they have the same problem but it doesn't get as much internal attention.

I think every white man is tired of this "racist' crap as this is a weapon of intimidation. Everybody knows some negroes seek white wimmin in preference to their own. I had a white Irish/Polish tenant who said she felt like a bauble to be displayed and ho was divorced from a fat low life negro husband. She married the guy as she was so abused by her parents that she had to find something lower than her to look up to her and she found it. The other three I found were addicts.

Actually, I’m very well read in human history, especially the Western World. I just choose not to read everything from a Catholic perspective. The foundational text of your church is the Bible, and the bible fail the test that it was written by an all knowing, all powerful, all kind, eternal being. It’s so filled with contradiction, cruelty, bigotry and genocide that no thinking person could conclude otherwise. Consequently it’s unreasonable to expect a thinking person to read about secret apparitions, when the foundational documents are so greatly flawed. Instead I spent my time studying more of the origins, such as the connections to Paganism that we discussed, and how Thomas Aquinas actually based his writings on the Philosophy of Plato. Without the Pagans, and without Plato, there would be no Christianity as we know it today.

Yes, there may be a structure to the Church organization, but there was also a structure the Nazi party. But the existence of a structure does not mean the belief or either organization was grounded in fact.

As for the internal Church tiffs, personally, I’m more concerned about the socialist influences within the church, the one’s pushing “social justice” then I am about any disagreements over who gets to consecrate what.

As far as my treatment of your doctrine or dogma, why should I continue investigation a line of reasoning that’s been definitively proven false? Why should I continue to study Ptolemaic astronomy when I can learn more about the TRUTH from studying Kepler and Newton?

If you want a good scientific explanation regarding the downfall of the Mayan’s read:
Diamond, Jared, 2011. Collapse, How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. New York, New York, Penguin Press.
He has a good chapter on the Mayans. Their collapse had nothing to do with a vengeful Christian God, but unwise use of their resources.
Athens basically bankrupted themselves building the Parthenon.

As for who is perpetuating a hoax, perhaps you should look closer to home.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Actually, I’m very well read in human history, especially the Western World. I just choose not to read everything from a Catholic perspective.

You have failed as a scientist. I admit there is a lot of stuff from other sources I would not bother reading but I do have a copy of the Manifesto beating about someplace. However it would be possible to say, given your level of condemnation, that you haven't read the source material except as presented by the enemies of the Church. This wouldn't pass in a legal presentation or complaint and doesn't succeed as pretending to be research. However even that is not the issue because the ultimate motivation is to absolutely never believe in Christianity or, more specifically, what the Catholic Church teaches, ever.

quote:

The foundational text of your church is the Bible, and the bible fail the test that it was written by an all knowing, all powerful, all kind, eternal being.

You don't know what you are talking about and may happen to be filled with hate for some particular personal reason. More later.

quote:

It’s so filled with contradiction, cruelty, bigotry and genocide that no thinking person could conclude otherwise.

I know what you think you are talking about. But from your standpoint, gimme some examples. One classic is the call to kill a certain population down to the children or whatever the specifics were. I haven't seen any comments on that recently (and there is an explanation) but even that is not what it appears to be. However why not list some juicy stuff and I'll see if I can locate it in a KJV Bible I have s my father's was stolen by personnel at his nursing home eleven years ago.

quote:

Consequently it’s unreasonable to expect a thinking person to read about secret apparitions, when the foundational documents are so greatly flawed.

The apparition of Fatima was not secret as it occurred in public over and extended period of time before perhaps 70,000 people in 1917 when a large miraculous incident of nature occurred to make the proper impression that the underlying message was not "private" as Catholic objectors and servants say. Your "foundational" document argument is silly as it is filled with a narrow view of the Bible which is roughly to what I heard in grammar school - that Catholics worshiped statues. Just out of curiosity is any of the Bible true? Protestants alone have a particularly good series of books on how it turned out Biblical statements and descriptions are in fact true. There is a conservative site WND which has a good selection of religious books from their standpoint and I'm sure they have something on Biblical proofs.

quote:

Instead I spent my time studying more of the origins, such as the connections to Paganism that we discussed, and how Thomas Aquinas actually based his writings on the Philosophy of Plato. Without the Pagans, and without Plato, there would be no Christianity as we know it today.

I assure you there would be Christianity because God intended it regardless of who happened to appear first as a civilization or sub-population over thousands of years. I have a copy of Plato's Republic and got tired of reading through the structured proofs as I felt that certain things which seemed logical could be challenged like a pestiferous kid not wanting to obey a parent and giving an argument over it. I was waiting for the action to start. However, other commentators noted that Plato was not far from being a Nazi as killing off ol' crotches, etc, was possible in his Republic. Christianity is one of the few cultures which went the opposite way in assisting the "lame and the halt" and which didn't offer human sacrifice or perform cannibalism (Mexicans and the sacrificial pyramids).

quote:

Yes, there may be a structure to the Church organization, but there was also a structure the Nazi party. But the existence of a structure does not mean the belief or either organization was grounded in fact.

The structure of the Church is God at the top, Christ as the head of the church, the Pope is his vicar on earth, and so on down the chain of rank to priests. Protestants deny this as they are, after all, Protestants and are stuck with what Luther and others gave them - and produced total destruction of unity as thousands of faiths erupted formally or informally over the centuries. What sort of "facts" are you looking for to ground a faith, given the history of Judaism through Christianity? What facts ground all paganism?

quote:

As for the internal Church tiffs, personally, I’m more concerned about the socialist influences within the church, the one’s pushing “social justice” then I am about any disagreements over who gets to consecrate what.

There tends to be a pervasive quasi-socialist thinking in the Church in which too many old scripts are dug up and used to beat up businessmen or capitalism. Some of this may be a response to the Protestant Work Ethic which might be seen as distracting spiritually and leading to materialism. This can happen.

quote:

As far as my treatment of your doctrine or dogma, why should I continue investigation a line of reasoning that’s been definitively proven false? Why should I continue to study Ptolemaic astronomy when I can learn more about the TRUTH from studying Kepler and Newton?

If you are studying astronomy, go where the references based on current knowledge are. As for declaring "a line of reasoning that's been proven definitively false", I ask what points of reasoning proven false by whom? This has been going on for centuries.

quote:

If you want a good scientific explanation regarding the downfall of the Mayan’s read:
Diamond, Jared, 2011. Collapse, How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. New York, New York, Penguin Press.
He has a good chapter on the Mayans. Their collapse had nothing to do with a vengeful Christian God, but unwise use of their resources.
Athens basically bankrupted themselves building the Parthenon.

The Mayans, also a bunch of human sacrificers, and apparently cannibals to boot, seem to have run into problems relating to weather and food production according to a TV special a couple years back. God may exact vengeance in subtle ways - or at least to the point of stopping most of their barbarism. With fifty-five million abortions we have our own day of reckoning coming. Incidentally, the Bible says in the Old testament that those who abandon God shall become a debtor nation (U.S.) and shall lose their land (the foreign invasion being aided and abetted by our Godless heathen president) and something else which I forgot. It says elsewhere that you should not help your enemies lest they become strong and come back and whack you upside de haid, which is China.

quote:

As for who is perpetuating a hoax, perhaps you should look closer to home.

That hoax gave you the whole western world without which you might be some pre-colonial African slave about to be cut up for body parts for the witchcraft market - though we are reverting to that with abortion and proposed stem cell research.

The Bible is not exactly the foundation of the Church but it does have church history and pre-history. The Bible is not going to save you. Believing in the Biblical message helps but the Bible is not a hierarchical church established by God. That was done by Christ at Pentecost. The Old Testament is a portent of Christ but it is not the foundation of the Church. The New testament was written completely several decades after Christ's crucifixion. It has nothing that would not be declared and taught today if it had never existed at all. God would infuse through the Holy Spirit that knowledge which was necessary to present the Church's teachings. However all things tend to be written so it is useful to have a historical track to codify things and eliminate instant large scale petty arguments. That's what brought about the council of Nicea. Writings and propositions had to be compared to earlier writings and propositions. This is where the protection of "I am always with you" comes from for the Church.

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
The judgment of sea otters on how to crack open shellfish is about as scientific as you can get. Involves getting a hard surface, laying it upon one's chest, swimming on the back, using a grip or vise (paws) plus kinetic energy to overcome hardness, tensile, or compressive qualities of the shellfish. Not only that, GOD told the otters how to do it, I betcha.

There are probably a couple hundred people on this site who know something of this sea otter behavior. We appreciate your views on our judgment and wisdom. Thank you from us and the otters. Would you like a raw oyster?

Nah you are just another brain washed proselytizer that has little knowledge of science and engineering. You are so afraid dying you would believe, do and say anything to avoid your personal extinction.

BTW did your Christian god destroy the Mayans while not giving them a chance at salvation?
They never had the chance to read your Bible.

How does that work for all people that came before your church? Are they damned for eternity for being born at the wrong place and time?

Eh? What has my quote to do with your response?

However, all of us are going to die which is something any sorta-kinda Christian (or anyone else is aware of) So what's to be afraid of? I hope to die matchlock and sword in hand atop a pile of unbelievers' bodies. As for dying, I know the experience which may or may not be yours as I was shot in the chest in Viet Nam and nearly bled to death. I also nearly suffocated to death recently in a hospital the day I was to be released after having a T-tube (a form of tracheostomy) installed. It got plugged and I was aware of the problem from prior experience. By the time I got into the hall things were getting serious and I had to be rolled in a chair back to my bed. Shortly after resuscitation began I passed out. I woke up with a room full of people who heard the broadcast Code Blue call and came over to watch the show. It got to the point where my fingertips were turning blue. A doctor intern happily told me if it happened at home (or anywhere outside of a hospital room)I would be dead.

Hey if your eternity is going to be so great why to you bother with hanging around when you have the chance to move on? Down deep inside, do you still have doubts?
Good luck with the non-believers. It sounds like they are gonna get you.

I will let nature take its course and in the meantime will try to restore as many guns as possible, write my analyses of their construction and of edged weapons as well, re-teach building model airplanes to da youts of today who no longer have creative hand skills (electronic gizmos, computers and the desire for instant gratification according to a large famous hobby shop owner in Chicago. He closed operations.), restore my four-flat, my 1990 leBaron, and try to start a pirate and cannibal club (sort of) to get Puerto Rican youth in my area interested in something constructive and which is partly related to their past history. I have a lagoon across the street so getting real boat and model boats building is a possibility. I have a few other long term delusions but have little time and too much to do.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
11 pages and yet we still have not solved the differences in religious belief of creationism....hmm imagine that.

That might be because the thread is about the history of tools, there, Ace.

Hey Tin Can....I mean ACE'less....please read between your comment and this one? Hmm where are we talking of tools. My previous statements stand.

quote:

The Bible is not going to save you. Believing in the Biblical message helps but the Bible is not a hierarchical church established by God. That was done by Christ at Pentecost.

Piek, the whole story of Pentacost is just more of the Catholic Church, trying to Justify the Catholic Church. The basic english translation of this story is "Follow us, and give us money, or suffer forever."

The you go on to say that God, through the Holy Spirit, sent knowledge, that was written down, but then he infused them again at Nicea, and instructed them to throw out all the Gnostic text that esentially said people could worship without a priest....because if they could worship outside a church, they woudn't be there when the priest passed the plate!

Since Acts was probably written late first century, about the time the Gnostics texts started to appear, this scenerio makes more sense then your version.

You still have not answered SR4759 about the Mayans. Why didn't God "infuse" them?

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

The Bible is not going to save you. Believing in the Biblical message helps but the Bible is not a hierarchical church established by God. That was done by Christ at Pentecost.

quote:

Piek, the whole story of Pentacost is just more of the Catholic Church, trying to Justify the Catholic Church. The basic english translation of this story is "Follow us, and give us money, or suffer forever."

You have a particular obsession with money, etc, and sound like a Protestant who, maybe sixty years ago would be obsessed with the "wealth of the Church" as his own church had little despite no doubt being a product of the reformation and therefore a pure clean Christian organization more deserving of getting all the money. The same sort of envy applies to the school system which Catholics built while Protestants generally never built anything that large at the public school level.

quote:

The you go on to say that God, through the Holy Spirit, sent knowledge, that was written down, but then he infused them again at Nicea,

No, He gave 'em a whack upside de haid to get them straightened out as under de debil and their own efforts they were getting things screwed up

quote:

"...and instructed them to throw out all the Gnostic text that esentially said people could worship without a priest....

Anyone can "worship" whenever as in saying daily prayers, etc, but the Church has the Mass instituted by Christ to offer as a now non-bloody sin offering in remission of sin. This requires a sacramental priesthood and the particular laying on of hands by a bishop or archbishop.[/quote]

quote:

"...because if they could worship outside a church, they woudn't be there when the priest passed the plate!

Again, your obsession with money. Are ye Scrooge MacDuck? Actually we find that those religions who don't have what passes for churches and clergy generally tend to fall away and become obscure sects. A worldwide organization requires people, material, and sustenance and that doesn't consist of farm offerings - unless contractors and municipalities are willing to accept California produce instead of money.

quote:

Since Acts was probably written late first century, about the time the Gnostics texts started to appear, this scenerio makes more sense then your version.

Bible verses were written for whatever virtues were to be expressed in them. Outside of perhaps noting the murderous depravities of the Canaanites or whoever else might be a source Godlessness (for instance) books like Acts weren't necessarily intended to be a late argumentative cure-all for whatever was popular error at the time. Actually there were an assortment of harmless but "nice" religious books or writings which were used in early Church readings. They were declared to be non-authoritative and ceased to be used.

quote:

You still have not answered SR4759 about the Mayans. Why didn't God "infuse" them?

As regards "things graven in the hearts of men" the knowledge at one time was certainly there and continued to be there. But like all men there is the inclination to sin courtesy of original sin inherited from Adam & Eve. Extreme evil behavior can overcome the divinely infused knowledge of right and wrong but even in the vilest cases of human behavior the truth will tend to emerge. When George Catlin questioned a Mandan or other chief on what merit and bravery there was in traveling a couple hundred miles alone so he might kill a couple squaws in another village the chief became defensive about the murder. Had it been a male it would be "acceptable". Catlin also copied the illustration, perhaps published in this particular book as an original, showing two females who had been speared by him. This reticence is part of the knowledge of what was right or wrong at least as regards killin' wimmin in vengeance missions as opposed to men. On the other hand there wasn't much known bother with the einsatz groups who specifically killed civilians and kids up close and personal. But a TV series on the subject of Russian and Polish relations in the early war dealt with the Katyn massacre. That involved a lot of in-prison executions as well. People who lived through that on the Russian side noted that of four executioners charged with killing Polish prisoners, three committed suicide and one went insane. This is a reflection of guilt brought about by the knowledge that this killing was wrong beyond any of the usual military and legal rationale. Cortes brought the matter up to the Aztecs but Montezuma said, "well, this is our religion and how we do things, and we know you don't do this wort of thing or like us doing it, but let's discuss the matter sometime later when we have time..." The Aztecs knew distantly but they had their excuses well developed by that time.

No the Mayans, not the Aztecs.

Haven't particularly read anything on Mayans but recent TV shows indicated they had an especially revealing but nontheless excuse making series on the Mayans. These guys were into carefully opening a vein in the neck, using a straw to guide the blood into a bowl, and what came after that I forgot. This was human sacrifice and apparently cannibalism. But the anthropologists just wouldn't admit that they were cannibals even though they found defleshed skelicans which likely indicated that. Actually eating the sacrifice is usual. However the Mayans, like all peoples, somewhere in what passes for pre-history by us, would have still had the basics of right and wrong known to all - until it got to where it was overcome by their particular evils. Thievery is known to all, as is lying and all the usual vices.

Okay okay okay....I finally solved this!!!

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
Haven't particularly read anything on Mayans but recent TV shows indicated they had an especially revealing but nontheless excuse making series on the Mayans. These guys were into carefully opening a vein in the neck, using a straw to guide the blood into a bowl, and what came after that I forgot. This was human sacrifice and apparently cannibalism. But the anthropologists just wouldn't admit that they were cannibals even though they found defleshed skelicans which likely indicated that. Actually eating the sacrifice is usual. However the Mayans, like all peoples, somewhere in what passes for pre-history by us, would have still had the basics of right and wrong known to all - until it got to where it was overcome by their particular evils. Thievery is known to all, as is lying and all the usual vices.

Indians, both North and South American were quite bloodthirsty- cannibalism/torture amongst the Mound culture and Meso-Americans, torture amongst the later North Americans. The early Virginia colonists recount flaying alive etc, to be expected if captured; all Indians knew that a horrible end was probable if captured by another group.

The cannibalism in Mexico is decidedly underplayed by archaeologists, maybe due to some kind of PC.

About four years ago it was discovered in a southwestern site that Indians of that area not only ate their victims, as indicated by knife marks or "pot polish" from stirring meaty bones being boiled in clay pots, but that afterwards the remains were left in a fire pit and crapped on. The presumed current cultural descendants of the region of the Anasazi culture, declared these were false accusations and were being used as an excuse to justify the "past persecution and present discrimination against Indians". Them redskins done got corrupted by the white man and are now whiners and whimperers in the best traditions of wimpified political correctness. The central issue is they don't want to admit what really happened.

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
About four years ago it was discovered in a southwestern site that Indians of that area not only ate their victims, as indicated by knife marks or "pot polish" from stirring meaty bones being boiled in clay pots, but that afterwards the remains were left in a fire pit and crapped on. The presumed current cultural descendants of the region of the Anasazi culture, declared these were false accusations and were being used as an excuse to justify the "past persecution and present discrimination against Indians". Them redskins done got corrupted by the white man and are now whiners and whimperers in the best traditions of wimpified political correctness. The central issue is they don't want to admit what really happened.

Maybe all true. But the Christian God did not reveal himself to the Mayan's. If Christ is the only way to salvation the Mayans were damned to hell with no chance from day one.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
About four years ago it was discovered in a southwestern site that Indians of that area not only ate their victims, as indicated by knife marks or "pot polish" from stirring meaty bones being boiled in clay pots, but that afterwards the remains were left in a fire pit and crapped on. The presumed current cultural descendants of the region of the Anasazi culture, declared these were false accusations and were being used as an excuse to justify the "past persecution and present discrimination against Indians". Them redskins done got corrupted by the white man and are now whiners and whimperers in the best traditions of wimpified political correctness. The central issue is they don't want to admit what really happened.

Maybe all true. But the Christian God did not reveal himself to the Mayan's. If Christ is the only way to salvation the Mayans were damned to hell with no chance from day one.

The problem with Adam & Eve is that they squandered your inheritance and left you in an alley. There is a brief description in the Bible of what they were told to do or not do and no doubt they were filled in on the consequences or there would be no point in making the warning. Out of the Garden they were cursed with death (which some people think would have been their lot anyway as natural beings) though the expectation is that death is punishment and would not been part of the fate of the faithful Adam & Eve (and any faithful offspring).

The punishment of Adam & Eve falls upon all humanity permanently just as we all must die. Much of humanity will have never heard of Christ and had long since lost contact with the earliest knowledge of the true God. De Debil will invent new ones for distantly dispersed mankind. However those people will be judged by natural law which is revealed in part through "...those things which are graven in the hearts of man". Why concern yourself with what happened to the old Mayans? Their descendants today can hear the word and be saved through following Christ. The Jews got Jesus up close and personal complete with miracles just to prove the point beyond mere talk and theory. I suppose you would be impressed by a miracle produced right in front of your face, right? And as Christ said to the Jews whop objected to his works, "What is easier, to say "Your sins are forgiven" or to raise the dead? The enemies of Jesus said he was pretending to be God and forgiving sin. So he said the equivalent of, let's see you raise the dead, suckers! Who do you think does that? (The Babylonian Talmud says Christ was a magician,etc, unless such comments are redacted from some publications). Whatever the case, Jesus was rejected by the entire body of Jewry outside of perhaps a few hundred people of that community. The Jews have had the same "no Jesus" problem the Mayans had up to the arrival of Cortez. The current Mayans can be saved. But the Jews still reject Christ outside of a few converts. The Church stated in three dogmatic councils that there is no salvation outside the Church. Christ said the same thing. The Jews faced damnation since the time of Pentecost as modern Jews inherited the errors of their ancient ancestors. That still applies to everyone else. This issue is discussed periodically. Some six or seven years ago a priest said we face the issue of the possibility that 97% of the population is going to hell with the deepest grief. God laid down the rules and our two first parents blew it. The offer of Christ to sacrifice himself to save mankind out of love for humanity parallels (at an earlier time) the later request for Abraham to sacrifice his son - which he would do for the love of God. Casting aside the issue of blood sacrifice there are people today who would utterly refuse to do anything to even admit there is a God or to follow what guidelines are laid out for salvation through his established Church.

quote:

quote:
"...and instructed them to throw out all the Gnostic text that esentially said people could worship without a priest....

Anyone can "worship" whenever as in saying daily prayers, etc, but the Church has the Mass instituted by Christ to offer as a now non-bloody sin offering in remission of sin. This requires a sacramental priesthood and the particular laying on of hands by a bishop or archbishop.

[/quote]

Let me translate this:

No bishop or archbishop to lay hands on you, you go to Hell.
When you show up on Sunday services, do they pass the plate?

Do you see the basic pattern? Pay us money or GO TO HELL! By any reasonable definition, this is extortion. If you were threatened in this way with a gun, and not just your imortal soul, they would be brought up on RICO charges.

As for the wealth of the Church, I look at it the same was that I look at the wealth of Las Vegas. Neither produces anything of substance, yet both industries have produced substancial great wealth for their principles. Both are a racket, one is just more honest about it.

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by S. PIEKARCZYK:
About four years ago it was discovered in a southwestern site that Indians of that area not only ate their victims, as indicated by knife marks or "pot polish" from stirring meaty bones being boiled in clay pots, but that afterwards the remains were left in a fire pit and crapped on. The presumed current cultural descendants of the region of the Anasazi culture, declared these were false accusations and were being used as an excuse to justify the "past persecution and present discrimination against Indians". Them redskins done got corrupted by the white man and are now whiners and whimperers in the best traditions of wimpified political correctness. The central issue is they don't want to admit what really happened.

Maybe all true. But the Christian God did not reveal himself to the Mayan's. If Christ is the only way to salvation the Mayans were damned to hell with no chance from day one.

The problem with Adam & Eve is that they squandered your inheritance and left you in an alley. There is a brief description in the Bible of what they were told to do or not do and no doubt they were filled in on the consequences or there would be no point in making the warning. Out of the Garden they were cursed with death (which some people think would have been their lot anyway as natural beings) though the expectation is that death is punishment and would not been part of the fate of the faithful Adam & Eve (and any faithful offspring).

The punishment of Adam & Eve falls upon all humanity permanently just as we all must die. Much of humanity will have never heard of Christ and had long since lost contact with the earliest knowledge of the true God. De Debil will invent new ones for distantly dispersed mankind. However those people will be judged by natural law which is revealed in part through "...those things which are graven in the hearts of man". Why concern yourself with what happened to the old Mayans? Their descendants today can hear the word and be saved through following Christ. The Jews got Jesus up close and personal complete with miracles just to prove the point beyond mere talk and theory. I suppose you would be impressed by a miracle produced right in front of your face, right? And as Christ said to the Jews whop objected to his works, "What is easier, to say "Your sins are forgiven" or to raise the dead? The enemies of Jesus said he was pretending to be God and forgiving sin. So he said the equivalent of, let's see you raise the dead, suckers! Who do you think does that? (The Babylonian Talmud says Christ was a magician,etc, unless such comments are redacted from some publications). Whatever the case, Jesus was rejected by the entire body of Jewry outside of perhaps a few hundred people of that community. The Jews have had the same "no Jesus" problem the Mayans had up to the arrival of Cortez. The current Mayans can be saved. But the Jews still reject Christ outside of a few converts. The Church stated in three dogmatic councils that there is no salvation outside the Church. Christ said the same thing. The Jews faced damnation since the time of Pentecost as modern Jews inherited the errors of their ancient ancestors. That still applies to everyone else. This issue is discussed periodically. Some six or seven years ago a priest said we face the issue of the possibility that 97% of the population is going to hell with the deepest grief. God laid down the rules and our two first parents blew it. The offer of Christ to sacrifice himself to save mankind out of love for humanity parallels (at an earlier time) the later request for Abraham to sacrifice his son - which he would do for the love of God. Casting aside the issue of blood sacrifice there are people today who would utterly refuse to do anything to even admit there is a God or to follow what guidelines are laid out for salvation through his established Church.

Adam.
Never.
Met.
Eve.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

[QUOTE]Let me translate this:

No bishop or archbishop to lay hands on you, you go to Hell.

I suggest you do a lot of reading as you still have no idea of religious habits, procedures, or anything I've said. "Laying on of hands" is the term used to describe the methodology since the earliest times among Jews, wherein something was passed on to someone else. In this case it is Holy Orders in the Catholic church and part of the continuum of ordination.

quote:

When you show up on Sunday services, do they pass the plate?

Yes, and I contribute elsewhere beside that.

quote:

Do you see the basic pattern? Pay us money or GO TO HELL! By any reasonable definition, this is extortion. If you were threatened in this way with a gun, and not just your imortal soul, they would be brought up on RICO charges.

You are living in a hate filled delusional world of mind-locked egg-bound money obsession. Everybody supports their organizations, societies, the NRA, Republican and Democrat parties, etc. You don't have to support your church if you are absolutely poverty-stricken, but the Catholic church is the largest single aid provider in Africa and that money comes partly from those Sunday collections. Ditto for all your local charities and homes for the disabled or unwed mothers, etc. Look up "Catholic Charities" and see what you find.

quote:

As for the wealth of the Church, I look at it the same was that I look at the wealth of Las Vegas. Neither produces anything of substance, yet both industries have produced substancial great wealth for their principles. Both are a racket, one is just more honest about it.

Really? We do have/had one priest in Chicago who leads a life as a contributor to liberal news columns and has an uppity attitude to Church discipline and teachings. He makes money from books and has separate private living quarters in a western state. Priests are not supposed to live the high life or write novels with some sort of sex scene, which Father Greeley apparently did. What happened to him in recent years I don't know but he's likely libbin' it for the Chicago Sun Times on occasion. Being a priest is not fun given their obligations which are considerably different from Jerkoff Jackson or some of your high flyin' Protestant mega preachers.

Are the local priests lining up their backhoes and front end loaders outside your property to attack your Scrooge McDuck money bin?

quote:

Why concern yourself with what happened to the old Mayans?

Oh then why care about anyone living today?
Why fear death so much that it makes you babble like you do?