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| One of Us |
Still trying to sell that 3 part trinity thing? It has got to be one of the most preposterous tales ever invented. | |||
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Difficult doctrine but that's they way it is. We are dealing with God and that's how he reveals himself: "He who has seen me has seen the Father" and "Before Abraham was, I am", which is the particular Jewish way of saying I am God, i.e., "I am who Am". What is so preposterous about it? It is a logical division of duties if we look at it from that standpoint. The most telling part is True God and true Man which is Christ incarnate. Even the Jews got the message in the time of the first temple where the priests began referring to God in a strange grammatical combination of single and plural forms in the same sentence: "Gods says "do this." The pluralizing form was later removed at the time of the second temple if I recall. The issue is not the Trinity but rather that you have no intention of believing. | |||
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What's illogical about it? You believe in something for which there is no independent evidence. | |||
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There is a colossal amount of ordinary science and history for which here is no independent or consistent evidence or certainty. Even Einstein's great equation has come into question with some odd discovery in physics and allegedly his work will be re-examined. Which "independent evidence" are you looking for? The existence of Christ? The existence of God? We all know a lot of things exist though we have never seen them or have never "been there" ourselves. Exactly what sort of proof do you want? It must, however, be the sort of thing you could determine or observe yourself. Who or what is an independent investigative agency and how does it work? Generally speaking there is some sort of methodology in proofs whether of logic or something physical. I think I have a copy of Plato or whomever who got into a long and logical analysis of things which got so drawn out it almost put me to sleep and sent me back to my gun magazines. However that author was a believer of sorts. The existence of God in the Christian world is something which is related to a finite period of existence for humanity which is under a burden of original sin and disobedience and which refuses (for the most part) to heed even Divine law "graven in the hearts of men". In that existence is found man's failing and the grace of God which may be called upon to offset it. The issue isn't external proofs for the existence of God, which can be proven by default or directly, but rather how to deal with unanswered evil in the world and to what end mankind is heading. Man offers no solution to a worsening world headed for destruction and slavery. Read the Apocalypse/Revelations. Lotsa fun, plenty of action, and it fits today's geo-political situation. Some of the proof of the pudding is in prophesy and the Bible has it. Maybe you should stop fixating on the Trinity - though I suspect that is an excuse for having absolutely no intention to believe. | |||
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So, I have to ask the non-believers: what is YOUR belief of how life came to be on this planet? | |||
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It's like when you leave a glass out and you come back in a week and it's covered in green living stuff. | |||
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And, where did IT come from? | |||
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Where does the green stuff come from you mean? | |||
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Yes, where did the mold/fungi/slime growth come from. | |||
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Where do you think it came from? | |||
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Barutmt, That was my question to the non-believers. No takers? | |||
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I understood your question. I don't understand how life came to be on the planet. I've read some about the various theories of Abiogenisis, but I still don't fully understand how life came to be. I'm comfortable with not knowing. So, how do you think life started? | |||
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As I see it, or rather not because I watched a glass very carefully once to make sure no-one interfered with it, the question is was it: a) "Blinked into being accompanied by harps and light" Or b) "A spore, invisible to the naked eye and without the benefit of thousands of years of human scientific progress, floated in and landed on it" And I chose the former, you'd understand right? | |||
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I don't think I am truly a non-believer. I just do not believe in what you believe in. I don't know I don't know whence the green grass grows. Unlike the hysterical Christian expounders I do not claim to have all the answers. On the other hand if you think you have all the answers your answers should be based on something besides smoke, mirrors and faith. Without corroboration it has no more validity to me than sightings of Sasquatch. I am interested in how life and all of this began. But right now I have seen no proof of anything but matter behaving as physics predicts. | |||
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Science doesn't have all the answers either, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
That applies to physics and String Theory, for example, of which I have no knowledge but the people who present it on TV do. They think it's there and they postulate it's there but they're not quite sure.
Where did the matter come from? Genesis has an account which is about as ordered as anything and starts with the sea. The guy who wrote that account didn't have the slightest idea of where life originated due to contemporary scientific studies as there weren't any. He got the revelation from You Know Who. | |||
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God. My now 26yo son has had 6 open heart surgeries, to date. A week after his 4th b-day he went in for a big surgery. It did not go well, and 9 days later, they operated again. This one also did not go well. 9 days after the 2nd one, the Dr came and told us they need to operate "right now" or we will lose him. At one point, the surgical nurse came out and told us they could not get him off the heart-lung machine, which is fatal. After one or 2 eternities, she came out and said 'he's off'. Now, fast forward 4 months, he's home and playing on the floor with his Legos. He looks at his mom and says 'mommy, I know what it feels like to die', and he says heart surgery. He describes being kidnapped by God, and there were other people around. My wife asked him, did you see God? and he said yes. He described God as being 'sunny'. He and God walked abit more, and God told him it's time for you to go home. Tell your mommy your not going to die. This from a 4 yo that we never discussed death or dying with him. In the hospital, he had an imaginery friend named Alex. I believe my son died on the table and witnessed himself being operated on and could not comprehend he was seeing himself so he named the boy Alex. There's more, but this gives you an idea. By the way, what do you think caused Steve Job's to say 'Oh wow' as his last words? | |||
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I'm happy that your son pulled through. I have a daughter and I imagine you must have been through hell. Rather than offer a bunch of alternative explanations for what your son experienced, let me ask you this: 1. How does your son's story, if true, support your assertion that God created life? 2. If there is a God, why is he spending time kidnapping 4 year old boys in surgery and reviving them rather than feeding the starving, ending disease, or maybe giving some clear, non-anecdotal evidence of his existence? As for Jobs, I would say that he was reacting to the visual hallucinations caused by having too much CO2 in the blood. | |||
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I would say he was reacting to a revelation of the presentation those who would be a part of his tribunal of judgment. Or maybe he was told that Apple would start making reel to reel computers and servers with vacuum tubes to survive EMT nuke detonations and then go broke when no nuclear war occurred. | |||
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I should clarify my previous post. The "if true" in my first question was not intended to imply that K-22 or his son were lying. I should have said, "if God really did kidnap and then revive your son". Sorry for any confusion. | |||
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Barutmt, no problem. My son's experience is a classic near death experience. I'm sure most people are aware of these instances. Did plain old 'dumb luck' position the Earth precisely in the proper orbit around the correct sized sun for life, as we know it, to flourish? Where did the water come from? A long time ago, I read a theory that moments before the 'Big Bang', every thing in the cosmos was compressed so much that it would fit onto a tablespoon! And this was said with a straight face by a scientist. Is this any easier to believe than having God? | |||
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Sure if you want simple answers to all your questions believe the many times translated words of goat herders. They have got to be dead on right? They didn't have a clue and there is no "you know who". You are not educated in anything logical, you have been brain washed. You can't learn or think anything new if you think you already know all the answers. There is a lot more to learn and discover out there but the fundies will never find it because they never look. They have all the answers. | |||
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Plain old dumb luck - no. With billions of stars in the universe we are probably not alone. We are just too feeble to detect the other worlds. This is not about what is easy to believe. It is about understanding the universe. That is not necessarily easy for us any more than it would be for the goat herders to understand how the Wright brothers learned to fly. | |||
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Give us the absolutely certain scientific and proven history on the origins of matter and the origins of the universe. Some of this is suspected to have started one way or another but there is nothing final like A+B = B+A. I'm sure you have an answer. Some people think they do but if you put all of them in a room duels and fistfights will break out. Is it correct to say nothing creates itself or that nothing moves unless something wills that it moves? Does matter become infinitely small as the universe and all around it seems to be infinitely expansive? Where is the start and what caused it? The theoretical First Source of an eternally existing spirit of infinite capabilities is an old default proposition for proving the existence of God who existed before all matter which he created by his will from a total void. God revealed himself in varying degrees to a failed population after Adam and Eve. Your comment about goat herders is dismissive. Howzabout Egyptian temple builders? Maybe some early Chinese or Indian guy? Or is there someone only now who has the status to receive the word of God? The revelation that life came from the sea, goat herder or not, sounds pretty scientifically accurate considering the age of the writing and what I always read about the subject. Who told Yehudi the goat herder that? Whatever your education God is quite willing to reveal himself to you and will offer you the graces you need to understand his teachings. As is always the case the issue isn't proof of God and the universe's origins but rather that no one wants to submit to the whole catalog of moral teachings and the need to amend one's life. De debil will lead people down the other path and to their destruction. It's been that way since Adam & Eve. | |||
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Nice quip and probably funny to someone but how much of anything anyone says is true because they say so? Try a Supreme Court decision such as the one on abortion. It says your right to life comes from Constitutional protections only and those arise AFTER you are born - and in this country, to boot. Otherwise there is no right to life because the Supreme Court says so. Who gave the Supreme Court the right to say that? Who connected what dots there? By the way the Bible DID say life came from the sea and I think contemporary studies on the matter connected those dots. I still ask, "Who told the goat herder" several thousand years ago that life came from the sea? Oops! The Bible says so and I believe it. Science which studied the matter says so and I believe it. | |||
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No one told a goat herder anything. It is more likely the goat herder had an agenda or was under the influence of the poppy or he was just bored to death. Now tell us why the Catholic Church tormented Galileo for beliefs that have since been proved correct. | |||
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Tell me about the agenda. You are desperately making up excuses when some analysis is needed. I'm not sure 2000 B.C. (or whenever) Heeb goat herders chewed on cakes of boiled down heroin from poppies. And I don't think anyone at that time would be bored and just decide to come up with Genesis and be fairly accurate in the order of things. Otherwise our drug crazed urban welfare mamas would be expounding brilliant scientific theories and be called into the universities to deliver their latest wisdom.
Why don't you read some Catholic history? Galileo was not tortured and was in fact reconciled with the Church when all was said and done. However a person put into custody would not exactly wind up in a modern executive style prison recreation camp as is the case with modern high-end offenders. His problem was his writings were used to attack the social, political, and moral order of the time. Accounts of Galileo are considerably exaggerated by the enemies of the Church though certainly on the human side people on either side of the issue could practice behavioral error. But what does this have to do with whether or not God exists? When all the navigation charts were re-interpreted all the bodies were in the same place and all the old navigation techniques still worked. In effect the circles and ellipses were re-drawn. It is still theoretically possible, according to one writing, that the earth actually is in the center of the universe in which case (a) everything else travels in an oscillating path around the earth but that (b) there is no way to prove it by triangulating until you get outside the universe, or whatever the further explanation was. Recent Discoveries indicate Einstein may not have been correct, or correct enough in his theory of relativity. As regards Galileo and the Church, give me your scientific analysis of the problems which would arise if Einstein was "not quite correct" or, in fact, wrong. | |||
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Okay...10 Pages! I just checked in for the 1st time. I am both a scientist and a Christian, but I am going back to posting tattoos and redheads! Amongst family and friends in my life we do not argue politics or religion...We as a family and my friends and I, are too diverse. How to I address my friend's Turkish wife, or friend's from Japan, what about my Lebanese coworker, or the Nepalese family next door. How do we discuss with my Jewish relatives? Good thing we all worship the same God in our own ways huh?!? Did I mention I gave up on organized religion after being the Church Council Vice and then President, assistant Pastor...etc...etc...My God and I have a deep understanding of both my faith and my profession... | |||
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Name it. | |||
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About a month - six weeks ago there was some sort of discovery of a factor involving energy or whatever that said Einstein "may not have been right after all", which is partly news speak for purposes of generating interest. Do some research on the theory, blue light, string theory, etc and see what you find. This is of no interest to me as I am awaiting the pickup of some muskets as well as generaing some work space so I can do some other overdue gun work. | |||
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Are you talking about the recent fuss over the supposed discovery of the Higgs boson? | |||
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Might be as there is something familiar sounding in that. I think the follow-on comment said further investigation had to be done and the thought was this is the wrong path anyway. | |||
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Piek, this might be what you were thinking about: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com...ativity-wrong/487659 Someone thought they might have seen a neutrino travel faster then the speed of light, but as the article points out, "The experimies is a long way from being accepted as "five sigma" or a claim that is tried and tested and deemed authentic". Every time you use your GPS, the theory of general realitivity is proven true. | |||
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How narcissistic is that?  | |||
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I dunno. Not my proposition but a matter of geometry or trig or whatever. Why not draw it out and see if it can work with all things apparently "revolving" the way they always do. If it's possible for your high school trig genius to illustrate this on paper then it's possible in real life. Someone said this means that the whole universe (or whatever) runs in an ellipse around the earth, aside from doing all that other boppin' an' hopping'. The issue is to prove it, which as the original commentator said, requires a trip outside our area of operations and doing a triangulation. | |||
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Piek, you whole theory is misplaced. There is no center of the universe: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/...ivity/GR/centre.html Here's a short NASA video that explains it: http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu...ter-of-the-Universe- | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antelope Sniper: Piek, you whole theory is misplaced. There is no center of the universe: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/...ivity/GR/centre.html[/QUOTE I'm not sure i intended to say that except in that someone may find a point around which our particular groups of planets rotate. I am not a stoont of this sort of thing as I have better things to do like work on my Islamic long guns, miquelet locks, cannibal stuff from new Guinea, indoor rubber powered model airplanes, and shoveling up after my herd of chihuahuas. | |||
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That would be called the Sun. I figured you wouldn't be interested in the reading, that's why I included the video. It's a nice short 2 minute explination. Here's another short explination comparing Jesus to the many other Pagan Sun God Religions and provided the astronomical explinations for many of the traditions surrounding Jesus. | |||
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Jesus may have some incidental point of similarity to other pagan gods or sun gods but many of the characters of the Old and New testaments, while not necessarily God, also have their similarities of behavior or advocacy. Even de Debil can talk a good sympathetic line you need it. However as regards Jesus there is a problem in comparison to any pagan god. Read through the Nicene Creed which was defined around 335 A.D. as a summation of the beliefs of Christianity. Christ is a sacrificial offering as the only thing man can invoke in atonement for or in seeking absolution for sin. There is exactly 1.0 God, 1.0 religion, One sacrificial offering in the form of Christ who is the only source of salvation. All else is man made or comes fum de Debil and is useless. I did not yet see the blurb posted. I thought the gist of the discussion was that there is no God or "I want proof". How did Jesus happen to come up? This still leaves the issue of a First source. | |||
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HEY!! - - - - - I asked a danged question here, so whoever posted that video get the eff on point and start answering.
I got no dog in this fight, but *what* southern cross does the video refer to? The only one I'm aware of would not be visible to the cultures discussed here.[/QUOTE] | |||
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