quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes RIP, I know you are yanking chains to see what falls out! LOL...... You are a "Rip" no doubt!

Keep your long barrels, does get one a few inches closer I suppose! For me, I will just take one step and be closer without having to snag and drag that length and weight around to get there!

OK, kidding and poking aside.

I keep hearing how good some of you like 20-22 inches, some on 458s, 375s, 416s and the lot. Great, almost there. Snowwolfe brings up a valid point LOP, which leads to something more, Overall Length of the entire rifle.

I will make a bet with most all of you here, and the fact of the matter is most of you have never handled a real DGR, that is beyond adequate, well into stopping power, by combination of cartridge, and bullet choice, that has an overall length of 36-38 inches, with either 16-18 inch barrels? Have you? Measure the overall length of your most favorite short gun, 20-22 inches and tell me what that is? I can promise you every inch makes a big difference in the way a rifle handles, comes up, gets on target.

No, you won't get something that runs 600 gr bullets at 2500 fps with one--But is that required?
I think not. It's good, ain't gonna hurt nothing, but not required for any mission I know of short of M1 Abrams, and then I want more than that!

I see it all the time, every time someone picks one up and compares it to a standard 24 inch 458 or 458 Lott. The light bulb comes on, smile on the face, and the same old words, "I can't believe how good this is!" I simply ask "What do you want to take to the bush and carry all day?", Answer is 100% always the same, every single time, bar not once has anyone said otherwise, once "Hands On".

So really, until you actually handle something along these lines, you really don't know, and its hard to comprehend, and impossible for you to argue different, since you have not had hands on experience.

Short Barrel fascist? No, I doubt that, I always give folks a choice, not my fault they always choose "correctly"............

HEH HEH..........

Michael

To each his own. I bought my oldest son a LH M70 Classic CRF stainless/synthetic in 416 REM for his present on getting out of the military (3rd Ranger Battalion). He wanted the barrel shortened to 22", so we had it done. He likes it that way. My 375 and 500 Jeffery both have 24" barrels, I prefer them. If you're in really thick stuff, a nice SxS sawed off 10 gauge shooting 0000 buck might be a good option for bears and cats as long as you don't mind having a swiss cheese rug ...

Once they saw it and handled it, I had PH,s and game rangers arguing over who could borrow my 458 SS.

They loved the idea of something like it when they had to carry it all day every day.

This is one hell of a great thread but with just two African Safaris under my belt, WTF do I know, so when Phil and Ganyana say "jump"! I say "how high...sir!"
On my buffalo hunt, I carried one of the first Ruger RSMs in 416 Rigby to come off the line and I still have the rifle. Shoots like a varmint gun and feeds like owlshit after Mark Penrod sweetened it up for me, but I sure wish I could find somebody to crop that barrel down to 22".

Now for a double I definitively like longer barrels, but settled on 25" for my 450NE.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It would be interesting to know why don`t trap and skeet shooters use 18 inch barrels? Is it because it is more difficult to point or aim? Is it because the shot won't keep a tight pattern out to the target? If the shot won't keep a tight pattern,then why is this so? Does a long rifle barrel help stableize a bullet the way a long shotgun barrel keeps a tight pattern? Is a stable bullet more likely to penetrate deeper or remain more accurate?

A long barreled trap gun gives a nice long sighting plane but there is not much swinging- just minor movement for refining the aim point.

A skeet gun works better with longer barrels and moderate to a little heavier weight to give a smooth swing and follow through.

I shoot way more than I hunt and I have absolutely no use for a stubby rifle unless it is a 22 for a grand child. I much prefer the handling of long barreled rifles and from my early years I never had any problems getting hung up in brush. I think that is a city boy problem. I do avoid large scopes on big game rifles.

I do feel that skeet shooting is excellent for developing hand to eye coordination.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It would be interesting to know why don`t trap and skeet shooters use 18 inch barrels? Is it because it is more difficult to point or aim? Is it because the shot won't keep a tight pattern out to the target? If the shot won't keep a tight pattern,then why is this so? Does a long rifle barrel help stableize a bullet the way a long shotgun barrel keeps a tight pattern? Is a stable bullet more likely to penetrate deeper or remain more accurate?

I think that is a city boy problem.

Now it should get interesting.

For what it is worth, I have never been in a situation where I said, damn it would sure be nice to have a shorter rifle . . . bigger caliber maybe . . . but never a shorter a rifle.

Once you handle and shoot a lighter and shorter 458 B&M vs a nominal 458 Lott it will change your perspective a bit. Once you hadle and shoot a light and short 458 SS or 50 SS you can not help but want to steal it. It feels like a light 22 and hits like a 458 Alaskan. Try it before you make up your mind.

I choose to be a dinosaur when it comes to hunting dangerous game. I will largely stick to cartridges, bullets, etc. that have "been there, done that" for decades. Perhaps when some of the new cartridges and bullets can make that claim, I will become a convert. In the mean time I am content to allow others to be the guinea pigs and for me to be labeled unenlightened and archaic.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

There is absolutely no point or sense to try to convert someone to like or dislike longer or shorter barrel, or a shorter or longer rifle, (just to be more specific).

I just wonder WHY???? different militaries and/or governments around the World spent the extra $$$ monies, the time and bother, to equiped their troops/police etc. with shorter barrels and shorter total length rifles.

To fight the enemy in the jungles in South East Asia, Colombia, Peru or the high terrains covered with shrub in different regions around the World.

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out, That the only reason was to equip their soldiers/police with the best tool(rifle) possible for the conditions that they were facing out there.

I also wonder how many of them asked for a longer rifle?

Pyzda

Pyzda,
You did not say whether this is a straight case or slightly bottle-necked.
That will affect "Weighting Factor" for case shape.
Small effect on results.

You did not specify the bullet construction,
so I assumed Monometal Unobtainium FN solid with same start pressure as solid soft brass.

Anyway,
this works for a barrel length comparison between 18" and 24" barrels on your 577 Pyzda cat.
Is this a pussycat or what?





H4895 is a good powder for full case loads. 134.9 grains of H4895, full case, gave 50,795 psi.
18" barrel: 750-grainer @ 2150 fps
24" barrel: 750-grainer @ 2288 fps

6 inches of barrel adds over 1000 ft-lbs. at the muzzle.
+/- 23 fps per inch of barrel between 24" and 18" barrel length.
FWIW.

RIP

Thanks,

Fantastic work;

This is actually .585HE, or Ed Hubels straight case baby.

The bullet is Woodleigh HYDRO

Pyzda

The start pressure above and length of bullet are good for a hypothetical brass FN solid.


Above was for bottle-necked case, weighting factor 0.5 was used.

Changing the case shape to cylindrical (weighting factor 0.75) lowers the velocity and raises the peak chamber pressure in QuickLOAD, with same 134.9-grain charge of H4895.
Amazing.

All else same:
52,832 psi
18" velocity: 2127 fps
24" velocity: 2260 fps

Doing a quickLOAD for someone is like pulling teeth.
They never specify everything needed the first time around.
Gotta go ...

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

I just wonder WHY???? different militaries and/or governments around the World spent the extra $$$ monies, the time and bother, to equiped their troops/police etc. with shorter barrels and shorter total length rifles.

To fight the enemy in the jungles in South East Asia, Colombia, Peru or the high terrains covered with shrub in different regions around the World.

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out, That the only reason was to equip their soldiers/police with the best tool(rifle) possible for the conditions that they were facing out there.

Okay, I have to call bullsh*t on that. The military selects rifles largely on the basis of what is as close to idiot proof as is possible for the lowest common denominator enlisted man. The notion that they are selecting battle rifles on the basis of what the best equipment out there is . . . is . . . well misguided.

Hey, hunt with whatever you want, use a rifle with a 16" barrel for all I care, but don't try to create the false impression that shorter rifles are in some way superior for dangerous game hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

There is absolutely no point or sense to try to convert someone to like or dislike longer or shorter barrel, or a shorter or longer rifle, (just to be more specific).

I just wonder WHY???? different militaries and/or governments around the World spent the extra $$$ monies, the time and bother, to equiped their troops/police etc. with shorter barrels and shorter total length rifles.

To fight the enemy in the jungles in South East Asia, Colombia, Peru or the high terrains covered with shrub in different regions around the World.

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out, That the only reason was to equip their soldiers/police with the best tool(rifle) possible for the conditions that they were facing out there.

I also wonder how many of them asked for a longer rifle?

Pyzda

Don't ever believe the military or police in any country know it all about firearms or equipment. They have different needs and different perspectives and there are plenty of examples where they get it completely wrong, probably more often than not. Their personnel and those caught up in and around their operations are expendable as we see plenty of examples of almost on a daily basis. The military or police will never admit to how many have lost their lives due to inadequate, poorly selected and poor performing equipment. Nowadays without the enormous and devastating firepower from the air and the sea and hi-tech mobile units, military infantry are incapable of winning a skirmish based on handheld weaponry. Military and police rely on expendable numbers, and plenty of it, when it comes to firepower and I take with a grain of salt what any military or police unit anywhere in the world may think or do when it comes to hunting and firearms used for such.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The start pressure above and length of bullet are good for a hypothetical brass FN solid.


Above was for bottle-necked case, weighting factor 0.5 was used.

Changing the case shape to cylindrical (weighting factor 0.75) lowers the velocity and raises the peak chamber pressure in QuickLOAD, with same 134.9-grain charge of H4895.
Amazing.

All else same:
52,832 psi
18" velocity: 2127 fps
24" velocity: 2260 fps

Doing a quickLOAD for someone is like pulling teeth.
They never specify everything needed the first time around.
Gotta go ...

RIP

sorry, I didn't know that Quick Load differenciate between straight/bottleneck case to calculate pressure.

However I only have downloaded Powley Computer and if I put the same data as for the bottleneck case I get about the same (close enough outcome). Not so sophysticated off course.

I wonder why the pressure/velocity changes with the straight case. I've never gave it a second thought, but if asked I would most likely say it the otherway around.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out, That the only reason was to equip their soldiers/police with the best tool(rifle) possible for the conditions that they were facing out there.

There are still true believers out there, amazing...


.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

I just wonder WHY???? different militaries and/or governments around the World spent the extra $$$ monies, the time and bother, to equiped their troops/police etc. with shorter barrels and shorter total length rifles.

To fight the enemy in the jungles in South East Asia, Colombia, Peru or the high terrains covered with shrub in different regions around the World.

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out, That the only reason was to equip their soldiers/police with the best tool(rifle) possible for the conditions that they were facing out there.

Okay, I have to call bullsh*t on that. The military selects rifles largely on the basis of what is as close to idiot proof as is possible for the lowest common denominator enlisted man. The notion that they are selecting battle rifles on the basis of what the best equipment out there is . . . is . . . well misguided.

Hey, hunt with whatever you want, use a rifle with a 16" barrel for all I care, but don't try to create the false impression that shorter rifles are in some way superior for dangerous game hunting.

I can respect your views on hunting rifle selection, but your views on how a battle rifle is selected is not only wrong, but insulting to those that serve. jorge

quote:

I choose to be a dinosaur when it comes to hunting dangerous game. I will largely stick to cartridges, bullets, etc. that have "been there, done that" for decades. Perhaps when some of the new cartridges and bullets can make that claim, I will become a convert. In the mean time I am content to allow others to be the guinea pigs and for me to be labeled unenlightened and archaic.

Mike

quote:

Okay, I have to call bullsh*t on that. The military selects rifles largely on the basis of what is as close to idiot proof as is possible for the lowest common denominator enlisted man. The notion that they are selecting battle rifles on the basis of what the best equipment out there is . . . is . . . well misguided.

Hey, hunt with whatever you want, use a rifle with a 16" barrel for all I care, but don't try to create the false impression that shorter rifles are in some way superior for dangerous game hunting.

Mike

Mike Jines,

First, I could care less what YOU decide to hunt with, or not. I don't care if you want to carry a 62 inch barrel 50 BMG that weighs in at 35 lbs. If that is what you want to do, fine and dandy with me, but do not dare tell me, that this is "Superior" in some way for day in, day out, "Dangerous Game Hunting!"

You are trapped inside the box. Problem is, your box does not even have any windows in it for you to be able to look out, even for a second. Your box is so darkened by your worry about being a guinea pig, that you have chosen to close your eyes to any other opinion, or in this case, experience.

quote:

use a rifle with a 16" barrel for all I care, but don't try to create the false impression that shorter rifles are in some way superior for dangerous game hunting.

Now do tell us exactly how you can possibly make that statement? Have you in fact hunted with a 16-18 inch barrel big bore rifle, for Dangerous Game? From your statements, somehow I don't believe you have, maybe I am wrong, please enlighten me if that is the case.

quote:

Okay, I have to call bullsh*t on that. The military selects rifles largely on the basis of what is as close to idiot proof as is possible for the lowest common denominator enlisted man.

I have to take some offense to this statement as well! From this I take it you believe that our boys, that die for you, that put their lives on the line, every f*****g day, are somehow idiots that cannot possibly have any knowledge as to how to run their rifles? Or what might be needed in a house clearing in downtown Baghdad? Do you think those boys doing CQB in downtown are going in with 26 inch barreled rifles? Do you believe they don't know or have a clue as to what they need for a CQB Mission?

With you just being a "Tourist" Dangerous Game Hunter, murdering things at long range, 25-50 yards, then your big, long barreled, rifles are just dandy for that, no argument, and don't give a damn either way. But I am here to tell you, and call full on BullShit, in no uncertain terms, and no misunderstanding, that when you are laying on your back and an elephant is charging 3 steps away, or you are 6 ft away from a pissed off bear in very close quarters, or you are 4-5 yards away from a buffalo getting ready to bust your chops, or possibly in dense brush with a buffalo 5 yards away, waiting on you, or you are on your hands and knees crawling because the brush is so thick that elephant cannot be seen from 8-10 yds away, or you have a hippo charging that is taken at 6 steps, then that short barreled little rifle handles far far far superior, it is far faster on target, it is easier to maneuver in tight quarters, it is easier to get through thick brush without snagging that long snout on every branch or thorn bush. To believe otherwise is folly, and inexperience with proper techniques and firearms handling.

Mike, again, I could care less what you hunt with, it is nothing to me, I don't care. But, in no way, do you presume to tell me, for my purposes, for my hunting, that I or anyone else with experience is giving "False Impressions", or that our boys in the trenches are idiots! I think you might have made a poor choice of wording.

As for the "Military" reference to chosen firearms, the best analogy for this is "CQB" situations, which has become the norm in these trying times we live in.

Do not misunderstand my statements above. I know what works for me. If what works for me does not suit you, or does not work for you, I don't care! It means nothing to me, its no skin off my ass, you can do what suits you, what works for you, does not bother me in the least. What I do is different than most folks anyway, you can choose how you please.

Michael

Michael,

Can you clarify your statements a bit? I'm not sure exactly how you feel about short barreled rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I choose to be a dinosaur when it comes to hunting dangerous game. I will largely stick to cartridges, bullets, etc. that have "been there, done that" for decades. Perhaps when some of the new cartridges and bullets can make that claim, I will become a convert. In the mean time I am content to allow others to be the guinea pigs and for me to be labeled unenlightened and archaic.

Moderator can we make this a sticky?

Always good Michael to hear from someone with no axe to grind, no financial or other interest at stake to shade or color their views.

quote:

Always good Michael to hear from someone with no axe to grind, no financial or other interest at stake to shade or color their views.

Mike

Excellent, I concur with you 100%. Please tell me, as you insinuate, What Financial Gain, or axe to grind, or other interest that I personally might have, that would shade or color my view?

Michael

Man - someone is all fired up especially for a Friday. Did someone piss in your scotch this morning?

John

Short barreled rifles are for scrawny weaklings.

At what point does length and weight become a hinderance? Some of that is subjective but answer yourself that. I would gladly take an 18" barrel and lose a few pounds in sacrifice to a bit more recoil but I soak up recoil well. I am not a scrawny weakling but I love those handy rifles.
I don't like short barrels for smaller bores but I think losing 4 or 5 lbs off for example a fully loaded RSM is a good thing not to mention losing about a half foot. The subject is DG and not skeet so whatever you shoot best and quickest in a charge in the worst circumstances. Go with whatever gives you the most confidence but get the right bullet in the right spot with minimal fatigue or have a gun bearer. After a full day and miles of hiking preserving your grip strength is important IMHO. I would not bash Michael on the short barrels. Ask those who have used them including PH's.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Short barreled rifles are for scrawny weaklings.

Scared, scrawny weaklings I might add

and I will second you "ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory" comment

Neither I not Michael nor quite a few who use these short rifles are scrawny weaklings. Size has little to do with it but saving your strength especially grip strength is important IMHO.
Scared? Who would not be slightly afraid being charged? It was a hippo charge that started Michael on this short handy journey.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Short barreled rifles are for scrawny weaklings.

Scared, scrawny weaklings I might add

and I will second you "ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory" comment

I like my 20" pipe on this 600. Yes I could get more speed from a longer barrel but 2200 w/ a 900 grn is enough

Losing those 2" of barrel must make you a scrawny scared weakling according to some here.
I love that awesome boar!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Losing those 2" of barrel must make you a scrawny scared weakling according to some here.
I love that awesome boar!

some might think so

Overkill

May I ask you what your load is 22" 2200fps/900gr.

I'm a scrawny weakling having difficulties in deciding what cartridge to go with for my next project so far it is between .585HE, 600 OK, or a full length BMG based .700"

Thanks
Pyzda

By scrawny, scared weakling I was only referring to Don Heath and myself. If all you he-men want to pack heavy. long barreled rifles then by all means go ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by 600 Overkill:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Losing those 2" of barrel must make you a scrawny scared weakling according to some here.
I love that awesome boar!

some might think so

Does that 20" .600 OK have one those mother of all muzzle breaks on it too, one of those aesthetically pleasing, smooth lines peices that looks like it came off an M-1 tank?

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Overkill

May I ask you what your load is 22" 2200fps/900gr.

I'm a scrawny weakling having difficulties in deciding what cartridge to go with for my next project so far it is between .585HE, 600 OK, or a full length BMG based .700"

Thanks
Pyzda

Pyzda---Make your life easy & get a 600OK---trust me you'll love it & it's a top shelf killer. That load was 165grs H-4350.

My daughter says the 600 Overkill makes a pretty good ladies rifle

Overkill

Thanks, I have no doubt it would be.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Overkill

May I ask you what your load is 22" 2200fps/900gr.

I'm a scrawny weakling having difficulties in deciding what cartridge to go with for my next project so far it is between .585HE, 600 OK, or a full length BMG based .700"

Thanks
Pyzda

Pyzda...
Plenty of good choices.
Since you know your way around machines maybe go all out and do a rimless 12GFH
Shotgun loads all the way up to 12k FPE.
Depending on the action you use reduce the rim of the BMG to fit the bolt and headspace on case mouth (case mouth will work like a shoulder because of how thick the brass is. Heck make a 45 degree Ackley case mouth) Not sure if a rimless 12 gauge needs a DD exclusion but not too hard to do. Reamers and dies have been made already. That would be a fairly cost efficient way to go big. Cheap brass and bullets. The PITA is reducing the rims on the lathe.

quote:

Short barreled rifles are for scrawny weaklings.

Yep, that's me!




600OK--Ya need some of those 825 gr NonCons! Absolutely--Wicked.

quote:

quote:
Always good Michael to hear from someone with no axe to grind, no financial or other interest at stake to shade or color their views.

Mike



Excellent, I concur with you 100%. Please tell me, as you insinuate, What Financial Gain, or axe to grind, or other interest that I personally might have, that would shade or color my view?

Michael

I'm still waiting for an answer!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

quote:
Always good Michael to hear from someone with no axe to grind, no financial or other interest at stake to shade or color their views.

Mike

Excellent, I concur with you 100%. Please tell me, as you insinuate, What Financial Gain, or axe to grind, or other interest that I personally might have, that would shade or color my view?

Michael

I'm still waiting for an answer!

Likely won't get one 'cause we all know the answer... At least those of us who have paid attention over the past 2+ years...

Put me down as one of those "scrawny weaklings" as well.

8 & 1/2lbs, 20" barrelled .500 ultra mag is by far the most user freindly AND effective buffalo back-up rifles it has ever been my pleasure to carry in the field and I don't even need to hunt wall-thick alders to justify the short barrel or light weighted rifle !

Funny how few of the brawny He-men, long barrel, lead-weighted users are not too keen on firing my litle fly-weight carbine.