Well, Guess y'all can figure how I voted as I had my 458 WM cut from 26":



Down to 23":

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

It isn't nonsense to have an opinion, but it is nonsense to claim yours is superior to everyone else's.

I have news, try crawling through the Alaskan alders like Mr. Phil describes and you'll have your opinion of the utility of short barreled rifles will change within your first few steps.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
Well, Guess y'all can figure how I voted as I had my 458 WM cut from 26":



Down to 23":

As a fellow 798 owner, how does that thing perform with the 458, recoil wise, and overall performance? Mine is a 375, and other then the rough action that I had to use some lapping compound on, it's pretty decent. I too feel the barrel is a little long on them too, and have thought about lobbing off a couple of inches at least.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I know you are talking about that but maneuvering a rifle or shotgun with a 26 inch barrel has never been an issue with anyone hunting anywhere.If you were talking military combat in a room such is in a house them I might agree,but hunting DG is in no way like that even when it gets nasty,IMO.I have hunted small game in the thick Quebec bush with a 30 inch shotgun many times and going to a 26 inch is better and perfect but you can still do with a 30.Why someone would want a 18 inch in Africa is nonsense.

It isn't nonsense to have an opinion, but it is nonsense to claim yours is superior to everyone else's.

I have news, try crawling through the Alaskan alders like Mr. Phil describes and you'll have your opinion of the utility of short barreled rifles will change within your first few steps.

I see our resident expert, shootaway, is again professing his "expertise" as the only answer. After all, he has done africa a total of THREE (3) times! What more could be asked of an "expert"?

I try my hardest not to respond to his ridiculous posts but this is simply too much. This has been going on for years with him and rational discourse is not his strong suit. He would be well advised to exercise caution to whom he raises the B.S. flag. Somebody could actually take offense to his rants.

A number of times here in Aus I've crawled
through thick bush to get to Buffalo bulls
and those times I've done it with a longer
barreled rifle have not been as easy as with
one of my 22 or 23" guns.

Those I hunt with here have been to Africa, US, Canada and all over numerous times and they say crawling through bush be it it thorny bush or saplings is the same the world over.

As for barrel length - sighting plane ?
At 10 - 30 feet, does it really make a difference ?

I am like OzHunter, I find 23" good but
not many guns made like that and I'm not
cutting old English DG / big bore rifles down !!!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I have never read anywhere of an experienced hunter or PH mentioning that an 18 inch barreled rifle would be advantageous to them in any way.

Don Heath (Ganyanya) and I may not have the benefit of your vast experience, but we do have a bit. with DG as well as in combat.

I have a 500 that has a 19" barrel, it is awesome. It is not just how easy it moves in thick bush, it may handle better in that situation. But the thing i like most is how it balances in my hands. The longer barrel carries weight out further, it is not much, but the further out you go the more effect it has on balance and thus handling. I do miss the extra speed, but the handling is worth that trade off. Sort barrel for me for a DG rifle for sure.

I had my 458 lott chopped to 22 from 25. Lost a total of about 70 FPS. But all you have to do is pick it up and it feels 100X better than that 25" tube. And if you are using open sights go with a reciever peep and you will have more sight radius than express. I agree with the handling aspect, wayy better with shorter barrels. Everything from M4's to DG rifles

quote:

Originally posted by streetglideok:

As a fellow 798 owner, how does that thing perform with the 458, recoil wise, and overall performance? Mine is a 375, and other then the rough action that I had to use some lapping compound on, it's pretty decent. I too feel the barrel is a little long on them too, and have thought about lobbing off a couple of inches at least.

streetglideok,

That light 458 was a beast at 26" and still is at 23"!

I believe my 458 and your 375 are built with the same barrel contour. I had so many reasons to cut the barrel that you won't.

1) The barrel was too thin for my liking at the crown. Cut it off some thicken it alot.
2) On my first range time with that rifle I was shooting from the bench working up some reloads. It tore-up one of my sand bags, left me with a headache and the recoil jarred the front sight loose.
3) My preference for a carry-around DG stopper was for a shorter barrel as it was planned to be an iron sight 50 yard or less rifle.
4) Plus, I get very inexpensive gunsmithing.

All these probably don't appy to you.

I had the barrel cut 3" as my best guess at a compromise between handling and preformance. I was expecting to lose at most 18 FPSPI (i.e. Quickload estimate). I actually lost 69 FPS with my reloads - 23 FPSPI.

While my GS was doing the barrel cut and refixing that front sight, notice I also had him move the swivel to the front of the forearm.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by streetglideok:

As a fellow 798 owner, how does that thing perform with the 458, recoil wise, and overall performance? Mine is a 375, and other then the rough action that I had to use some lapping compound on, it's pretty decent. I too feel the barrel is a little long on them too, and have thought about lobbing off a couple of inches at least.

streetglideok,

That light 458 was a beast at 26" and still is at 23"!

I believe my 458 and your 375 are built with the same barrel contour. I had so many reasons to cut the barrel that you won't.

1) The barrel was too thin for my liking at the crown. Cut it off some thicken it alot.
2) On my first range time with that rifle I was shooting from the bench working up some reloads. It tore-up one of my sand bags, left me with a headache and the recoil jarred the front sight loose.
3) My preference for a carry-around DG stopper was for a shorter barrel as it was planned to be an iron sight 50 yard or less rifle.
4) Plus, I get very inexpensive gunsmithing.

All these probably don't appy to you.

I had the barrel cut 3" as my best guess at a compromise between handling and preformance. I was expecting to lose at most 18 FPSPI (i.e. Quickload estimate). I actually lost 69 FPS with my reloads - 23 FPSPI.

While my GS was doing the barrel cut and refixing that front sight, notice I also had him move the swivel to the front of the forearm.

The shop I bought mine from had some 458s available too, and I almost took one home instead. Im fairly certain you are right, they are the same exact contour, just yours is lighter due to the bigger hole in it. The weight seemed pretty good for the 375, I might say about perfect even, which I felt is waaay too light for a 458. I was afraid, and I think you validated my fear, that it will kick violently,lol. If I could snag one at the $450 I paid for mine again, then a much heavier barrel would be in order. Seems though they are worth alot more now though. Now that winchester is making the M70 safari again, I'm debating about saving for one, and getting it in 416, or maybe 458. I've thought about one in a 375, but then I'd have two of the same cal., but one with a heavy 24", and one with a light 26".

quote:

I can`t think of any incident where a hunter could not discharge his rifle in Africa because there was a tree or a big rock inches in front of him.I have never read anywhere of an experienced hunter or PH mentioning that an 18 inch barreled rifle would be advantageous to them in any way.I have hunted Africa 3 times and never had any displeasure or inconvenience in carrying my rifle,even in the thick stuff and yet you believe an 18 inch barrel is a must.Why don`t we see a PH using an 18 inch barreled rifle?



You might want to ask Michael 458 that question---


Is that a joke?

I suppose I must be a "Joke" to you?

quote:

Originally posted by streetglideok:
The shop I bought mine from had some 458s available too, and I almost took one home instead. Im fairly certain you are right, they are the same exact contour, just yours is lighter due to the bigger hole in it. The weight seemed pretty good for the 375, I might say about perfect even, which I felt is waaay too light for a 458. I was afraid, and I think you validated my fear, that it will kick violently,lol. .....

Well...Don't get me wrong - I got this for a carry-around stopper and its working out well for me! Solved the recoil problem with a PAST strap-on shoulder pad.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Pointing is one thing, maneuverability in the bush or any terrain for that matter is another thing.

They are both totally different to one other.

I like the 26" barrel for nothing, but velocity.

I wouldn't even consider to have a DGR or any other bolt action hunting rifle (in my case it is the same rifles) with barrel longer than 22".

If I could get the performance that I like from an 18" barrel. I would have all rifle barrels chopped to 18" without any hesitations.

That means single shot rifles as well.

Pyzda

I can`t think of any incident where a hunter could not discharge his rifle in Africa because there was a tree or a big rock inches in front of him.I have never read anywhere of an experienced hunter or PH mentioning that an 18 inch barreled rifle would be advantageous to them in any way.I have hunted Africa 3 times and never had any displeasure or inconvenience in carrying my rifle,even in the thick stuff and yet you believe an 18 inch barrel is a must.Why don`t we see a PH using an 18 inch barreled rifle?

You might want to ask Michael 458 that question---

Is that a joke?

Not at all--

ask michael why he started the whole search that ended in the B&M line

and for your info--

I went to Zim and RSA with a 20In 416 B&M and a 16in 458 B&M SS and at least 4 ph's tried to get them away from me before I could get out of the country--

As mentioned above--you don't seem to have experience in thick brush--I was hunting the Limpopo and the low-veld---some of the brush was so thick you couldn't stick a knife in it

My Rem 375 H&H started life with a 22" bbl. I sent it off for some action/bedding work and had the bbl cut to 20" and threaded for a suppressor. Being shorter it handles better than before as it was a bit muzzle heavy. I haven't hunted with it since the work was done but will use it in Namibia in March.

There are times when a short rifle like a Double is ideal. One such time is when hunting in early season Jesse thicket. But then in such a circumstance I prefer a double that is generally short with standard length barrels but won't blow your ear drums out like a sub 22" barrelled bolt rifle.

23" to 26" on a bolt action is no impediment. My all-time favorite is 600mm or about 23.6".

I think on a double rifle, or any break-action or falling block single shot rifle, 23.6" to 26" is fine, also.
And the overall length of those will be 3 or 4 inches shorter than the same length barrel on a bolt action.
That feels good.
The lighter contour barrels twinned on a double makes for good balance at those lengths,
the single shot needs a heavier contour.

So they all work out best at about the same lengths for barrels.
What a coincidence!
Must say something about the evolution of firearms there, the three B's:
Balance, Ballistics and muzzle Blast!!!

Pennsylvania-Kentucky rifles with +40" barrels rarely got the pioneers killed.
And they were well balanced too.
Also easy on the ears, and needed the length for velocity with BP in the cutting-edge smaller bores of the day: 40 to 58-cal
Somehow they managed.

Delicious free-range/organic meat:

In thick stuff every inch makes a difference over 20 inches on a bolt rifle, so taking into account handling, balance and burn rate of powder I do not own a rifle with a barrel length over 22inches.

30-06 22inch barrel
338 win mag 22inch barrel
375 H&H 22 inch barrel
375 Ruger 20 inch barrel
458 win mag 21 inch barrel

I have had 24-26" barrels on many rifles in the early days.. But with increased experience (among others some 13 African safaris) I will now never use a rifle with a barrel above 22"... 20-22" is my favorite length for a DGR... all the long ones just keep standing in the safe.....

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
In thick stuff every inch makes a difference over 20 inches on a bolt rifle, so taking into account handling, balance and burn rate of powder I do not own a rifle with a barrel length over 22inches.

Dirklawyer

This comment is about as close to the truth as one can get.

In 31 years of hunting with .460Wea. I never wished for a better bullet, I never wished for a better rifle, I never wished to have a lighter/heavier rifle, but I wished about 1000 times to have a shorter rifle.

The 22" barrel is the minimum/maximum length that I'm willing to have on a .460Wea. bolt action.

Pyzda

Up until the mid 1980's ever single parks station had a 'jess gun' in the armoury. An Army and Navey in .500NE with 18" barrels.

Obviously long before my time sombody in National Parks who was senior enough to spend a ton of money spashed out and bough 30-40 double rifles with really short barrels. They were definately made that way as they were well balanced despite being so short (think of a .win M70 with a 15" barrel kind of short). They were light and kicked viciously, but for what they were built for, they were (still are) ideal.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Up until the mid 1980's ever single parks station had a 'jess gun' in the armoury. An Army and Navey in .500NE with 18" barrels.

Obviously long before my time sombody in National Parks who was senior enough to spend a ton of money spashed out and bough 30-40 double rifles with really short barrels. They were definately made that way as they were well balanced despite being so short (think of a .win M70 with a 15" barrel kind of short). They were light and kicked viciously, but for what they were built for, they were (still are) ideal.

Answered a lot of questions right there...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It would be interesting to know why don`t trap and skeet shooters use 18 inch barrels? Is it because it is more difficult to point or aim? Is it because the shot won't keep a tight pattern out to the target? If the shot won't keep a tight pattern,then why is this so? Does a long rifle barrel help stableize a bullet the way a long shotgun barrel keeps a tight pattern? Is a stable bullet more likely to penetrate deeper or remain more accurate?

With shotguns it's been tested and proven that the pattern is unchanged by bbl length
except for the number of inches the bbls are shortened. E.G. Shoot 30" bbl at paper at
20 yards, measure pattern. Cut bbls to 25" and move 5" closer to paper, fire, measure
pattern. Same measurements results.

Yes indeed, a 25"-barreled shotgun or rifle of any type will do just fine!!!

Of course one need not to thrash about in the bush with a short barrel.
One may poke a longer barrel through the bushes, and even climb trees with them quite easily,
if one can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I had a .378 Weatherby with a 22" barrel,
and it gave .375 H&H velocity with a lot more noise and recoil than a 24"-barreled .375 H&H.
I now have a 25"-barreled .378 Weatherby,
and two take-off barrels chambered for .378 Weatherby that are 22" long.
One I bought from another disappointed fellow who had cut down his Mark V.
I paid him 50 for it, dollars, not cents.
It is merely a conversation piece now.

Shotgun??? I can't imagine any use for a shotgun with a barrel longer than 12 inches?

Just extra weight, length and aggravation. Not much use for a shotgun anyway.


Big Bore Rifles? 16 and 18 more than enough to accomplish the mission, very efficiently.

This barrel length topic is quiet interesting.

My very first rifle that I bought was 26" barrel Mark V .460Wea. It was my only gun for several years.

It was good and very practical-(NOT) as long as it was LOCKED IN THE SAFE, or resting against a tree.

I never had a gun since, that gave me more aggravation and frustration than this Mark V.

It was nice and shiny, So every tiny scratch, every bit of rust sweaty finger print was sticking out like a dogs shiny balls.

Because of all this I watched and handle the bastard of a thing like a hawk just to prevent the damages.

The 26" barrel and the length of the rifle was so frustrating, that I didn't need to even go to the shrub.

Just getting the rifle from the safe and putting it into the case (bag) was enough for me hate the long thing with a passion.

I only liked shooting it in open spaces, WITH NO obstackels high and low insite.

In total about 3000 full trottle 500gr. Hornady bullets.

It never brought out any problems whatsoever.

One day I sold the rifle with a great relieve and without slightest regret and that was the only time that I had a 26" barrel on a bolt action rifle.

All the other bolt actions in .460Wea. had/have always only 22"-24" barrels.

Only because of the loss in velocity I didn't go any shorter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone with a Quick Load be willing to run these figures for me please.

Case water Capacity; 207gr.

Case Length; 3.25"

Cartridge COL 3.85"

Bullet length; 1.424"

Bullet weight; 750gr

Bullet diameter .585"

Barrel length 18"

What I'm interested is;

What MAXIMUM velocity will be possible to achieve with 46 500 CUP. AND/OR 54 000 PSI.

Thanks
Pyzda

This is an interesting thread as handling is highly subjective and everyone has favorites.
For a number of years the only rifle I hunted with when I lived in Arizona was a full length flintlock long rifle like RIP posted. It was "well balanced" and worked fine but would not even fit on the inside of my Taylorcraft airplane and had to be tied to the wing strut. It would be farcical, if not suicidal, to willingly take one into the pucker brush after a wounded bear here in Alaska or a lion or cape buffalo in Africa.
I also have a slim, very well balanced, lightweight, iron sighted 375 with a 25" bbl that is a pleasure to carry and use --- but it is nowhere near as handy and quick to use - IN THICK BRUSH - as shorter rifles. Just like a handgun with a 2 or 3 " bbl is easier to pack and use when compared to one with a 6 or 8 inch bbl.
When you make your living with a tool, or your life depends on it, you use the one that best suits your purpose.

No Sir, 458Win,
I would not recommend a 40-caliber flintlock with 41" barrel for Kodiak bear hunting.
But I have joyfully done it with a 24"-barreled .375 Weatherby, and would not want one shorter than that.
OK, the revolver I like to carry in my pants pocket has a 2" barrel.

Pyzda,
You have a good point too: If the rifle won't fit into the gun safe, the barrel is too long.
Unless "sumbuddy who know" beats me to it, I'll do your ".585 Pyzda" QuickLOAD whenever I can get to the 'puter with that software.
Should be interesting.
BTW why do you call yourself "Pyzda?"

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone with a Quick Load be willing to run these figures for me please.

Case water Capacity; 207gr.

Case Length; 3.25"

Cartridge COL 3.85"

Bullet length; 1.424"

Bullet weight; 750gr

Bullet diameter .585"

Barrel length 18"

What I'm interested is;

What MAXIMUM velocity will be possible to achieve with 46 500 CUP. AND/OR 54 000 PSI.

Thanks
Pyzda

Has anyone mentioned the Ruger Alaskan, with the 20" barrel in either 375 or 416 Ruger?

.458 Win.,

Would like to see some closeups of the light on that rifle. Looks very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
.458 Win.,

Would like to see some closeups of the light on that rifle. Looks very interesting.

You can talk about accuracy and ballistic advantage all you want but when you can hear one of these coming at you through the pucker brush from twenty feet away and you still can't see it because it's too thick, you don't want your barrel catching on anything and slowing you down even a fraction of a second !!

At least I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:


You can talk about accuracy and ballistic advantage all you want but when you can hear one of these coming at you through the pucker brush from twenty feet away and you still can't see it because it's too thick, you don't want your barrel catching on anything and slowing you down even a fraction of a second !!

quote:

Originally posted by streetglideok:
Has anyone mentioned the Ruger Alaskan, with the 20" barrel in either 375 or 416 Ruger?

Has become one of my favorites, the 375 Ruger Alaskan - just with a MCM stock instead of the Hogue.. Fasthandling, light and accurate...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by streetglideok:
Has anyone mentioned the Ruger Alaskan, with the 20" barrel in either 375 or 416 Ruger?

Has become one of my favorites, the 375 Ruger Alaskan - just with a MCM stock instead of the Hogue.. Fasthandling, light and accurate...

Buffalo, that is the same combination my son carries. His even has the purple McSwirley - or as we call it "the spawned out Chum Salmon" pattern. I,m sure you will see it this fall.

Two of my other regular guides also carry 375 Ruger Alaskans and I keep one in camp as a loaner as well.
They are pretty close to perfection for our hunting.

Bedded my Ruger Alaskan 375 in a McMillan stock and it a perfect choice for carrying in our wet, nasty weather. Sold off all my 375 H&H's after picking this rifle up. Reasonable weight, short barrel, hits hards, built in scope mounts, very reliable trigger. Ruger hit a home run for us Alaskans with this Alaskan

Phil and Snowwolfe -
Agree - excellent rifle.. Besides my 375 Ruger I have used two other Alaskans as basis for a 458 Acc Rel and a 500 Acc Rel...
With these three rifles I need nothing else..

Ulrik

And Phil - yes I am looking VERY MUCH forward to our upcomming hunt ...

So for those that believe that shorter is better, if 22" is better than 24", is 20" better than 22", 18" better than 20", etc.? Maybe we should all call pistols?

"Oh for the life of a Guide!"
Yes if I were one I would carry a midget rifle too,
like this .458 B&M with 19.75" barrel, that is equivalent to a .458 WinMag, only shorter and lighter.
This 19.75" barrel is too long according to some of you:



The only thing it needs to be perfect is a custom run of brass with no RUM micro-rebate on the rim,
and open the boltface to fit the new brass.

It has been fun yanking the chains of you short barrel fascists, but hell will freeze over before this tourist hunter bobs all his barrels!!!

I'll hunt with the 26-incher and have me gunbearer pack the backup 20-incher,
and the guide can go as short as he wants for the puckerbush shooting.
Heck, he can even go with a double rifle,
yes an 18" 577 NE double is about optimum,
and that will be about as long as a 14"-barreled bolt action.
That should be perfect.

I am no microbarrelophile, and I thank the Bloody British for the USA.

Yes RIP, I know you are yanking chains to see what falls out! LOL...... You are a "Rip" no doubt!

Keep your long barrels, does get one a few inches closer I suppose! For me, I will just take one step and be closer without having to snag and drag that length and weight around to get there!

OK, kidding and poking aside.

I keep hearing how good some of you like 20-22 inches, some on 458s, 375s, 416s and the lot. Great, almost there. Snowwolfe brings up a valid point LOP, which leads to something more, Overall Length of the entire rifle.

I will make a bet with most all of you here, and the fact of the matter is most of you have never handled a real DGR, that is beyond adequate, well into stopping power, by combination of cartridge, and bullet choice, that has an overall length of 36-38 inches, with either 16-18 inch barrels? Have you? Measure the overall length of your most favorite short gun, 20-22 inches and tell me what that is? I can promise you every inch makes a big difference in the way a rifle handles, comes up, gets on target.

No, you won't get something that runs 600 gr bullets at 2500 fps with one--But is that required?
I think not. It's good, ain't gonna hurt nothing, but not required for any mission I know of short of M1 Abrams, and then I want more than that!

I see it all the time, every time someone picks one up and compares it to a standard 24 inch 458 or 458 Lott. The light bulb comes on, smile on the face, and the same old words, "I can't believe how good this is!" I simply ask "What do you want to take to the bush and carry all day?", Answer is 100% always the same, every single time, bar not once has anyone said otherwise, once "Hands On".

So really, until you actually handle something along these lines, you really don't know, and its hard to comprehend, and impossible for you to argue different, since you have not had hands on experience.

Short Barrel fascist? No, I doubt that, I always give folks a choice, not my fault they always choose "correctly"............

HEH HEH..........

Michael