I have the option of buying a M70 in one of these calibers. I have a 12 gauge slug gun that shoots a 385 grain at 2000fps so I am looking for something to take into the next level (more than 100 yards.) This means I would like 250 yards of accuracy and drop/knock down power. This would be for Grizzles +. Which and why? THANKS

I like the .416 Rem as I am more comfortable with 400 grains at 2400 than 270-300 grains at 2500+. I have used my .416 and 2.5x scope out at 200 on game and with a 1.5-6 or so I can't imagine 250 yards being a problem. The only thing that might push me toward a .375 in your situation (hunting in grizzly country) is it's availability in a stainless model 70.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Forgot to add that I dont handload so all ammo would be factory.

For a grizzly, a .338 Win. Mag. would be perfect.

A .375 would be fine, too. But the .338 would be more generally practical for use on NA game, including brownies, elk and moose (and with lighter bullets, everything else, too).

Personally, I think that no hunter needs a .375 or a .416 unless he will be hunting African game.

If those are the choices I would take the 375. I think it is much more versatile with the bigger variety of factory loads.

Forgot to mention that HSM makes .416 Rem ammo using hornady softs and solids. The prices are quite reasonable. In fact, I stopped handloading when I found this ammo as it just wasn't worth my time anymore.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Well I like to go all out. One day, in the far far future, I may end up in Africa. By then, I would like a rifle to come with me with history, a lovers novel really.

My solution has been that I started with the .375H&H and then got the .458 Win.

The .375H&H has near .30-06 trajectories and still can handle heavier game. The .458 win can shot 400 gr loads with nearly the same trajectory as the .416 Rem/Rigby; and it can shoot the 500 gr loads. Cases are cheap and (relatively) common for both of these.

Dan

Can anyone provide a mini ballistic chart of these 3 calibers? Up to 250 yards if possible.

375 H&H Mag.
416 Remington Magnum
PRINTER FRIENDLY

Index No. Cartridge Type Wt. (grs) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
RS375MA Premier Safari Grade 300 A-Frameâ„¢ Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 M 0.297
RS416RA Premier Safari Grade 400 A-Frameâ„¢ Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 M 0.367

VELOCITY (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Premier Safari Grade 300 AF PSP 2530 2245 1979 1733 1512 1321
Premier Safari Grade 400 AF PSP 2400 2175 1962 1763 1579 1414

ENERGY (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Premier Safari Grade 300 AF PSP 4262 3357 2608 2001 1523 1163
Premier Safari Grade 400 AF PSP 5115 4201 3419 2760 2214 1775

SHORT-RANGE¹ TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Premier Safari Grade 300 AF PSP 0.0 zero -1.7 -5.4 -11.4 -19.8
Premier Safari Grade 400 AF PSP 0.1 zero -1.9 -5.9 -12.1 -20.8

LONG-RANGE² TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Premier Safari Grade 300 AF PSP 2.7 2.3 zero -4.6 -11.7 -35.0 -73.6
Premier Safari Grade 400 AF PSP 1.3 zero -3.3 -8.9 -17.0 -41.9 -80.8

The .416 Remington is to big bores what the '06Spr. is to medium bore cartridges.
The .416 is great if you can take that extra body punishment without negative effect on shooting ability. It really shines when used on heavy stuff at relatively short range of say 150yrds or less.
For longer range shooting in North America I would go with .338 Winchester.

There are a couple of important points here, the first is that even considering shooting a Grizzly at 250 yds. is a foolish endeavour; dangerous animals require the utmost precision in bullet placement and long range shooting is not condusive to this. You need to get within 100-150 yds. max. and then put the bullet into the aorta area for the most rapid kill; most guides I know will not allow a client-hunter to shoot at an unwounded bear at extended ranges.

The .375 H&H is PLENTY of gun for Grizzlies and easier to shoot than the .416 or .458 and this is from hands-on experience. I consider the two latter rounds to be very useful for professionals, but, the old "ouch and Ouch" is better for everyone else.

I second the motion concerning the .338 Win., especialy with 250 gr. premiums and this is my all-time favourite cartridge. In fact, I very seldom even carry my lovely old Mod. 70-.375 as the .338 is lighter and simply WHACKS anything you point it at. I have spent my entire life in Grizzly country and have never seen any need here for the .416 or .458 and those of my friends who have tried them have come back to the .338 and .375, the practical choices.

The .416 is an "African" cartridge. I still remember when my buddy got a new eight pound Sako with wood stock/iron sights for $650. Oh boy,...major ouch!

If I could choose only one it would be the .416.....but I would want all three.

I have a Rem 416 and 375 H&H. the 416 doesn't hurt to shoot it if standing. My 375 doesn't hurt to shoot either. It has a brake that I can take off for hunting. I also have thr 338 Rem Ultra Mag. Don't have a need for the 458 Win.

It seems to me that owning a .416 AND a .375 AND/OR a .458 Win is just too much. I can see owning a .375 and a .458 Lott, but not either of the others in combination. Since I own a .416, I would have a tough time even justifying the purchase of a Lott. I think I would need to move up to the .500 club in order to feel sufficiently diversified in my battery of weapons.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

The 350gr .416 A-Frame slug will drop about a foot at 400yrds and still earns 750lb game rating at that insane range. That's impressive by any standard.

I got the 416 in a M70 stainless. It shoots heavier bullets than the 375, but has a flatter trajectory than the 458 which is more of a close range stopper. I would load the 416 with 300 or 350 grain Barnes X for grizz or african plains game, 400 grain for buff. If you have mastered that 12 ga slug gun, then the recoil from the 416 won't be a problem for you.

Reloading is what this forum is all about, BTW.
So get started.

Either would do, but for this side of the big water I would definately go with the 375 H&H, it will do it all in spades...For the other side I would opt for the 416 Rem, but the stuff is bigger and meaner over there...

The 375 is just an awesome caliber, anyway you cut it...I have fought that decision for many years and change my mind several times a day, the 375 or the 416?? oh my!! I have both and that really complicates my choices.

JTG

Since when did justification ever have anything to do with getting a different caliber? I've got the range from 375 to 458 at the moment and just did it because I wanted them. Depending on circumstances, a bigger one may pop up.

475,

It just seems against practicality (I know, since when does practicality matter) to own and use a .416 as well as a .458. Just too close to one another. Give me a .416 and a 505 Gibbs or better yet a .500 nitro and I would be a happy man. I like regularly using as few weapons as possible for the sake of maintaining familiarity and confidence in my hunting rifles.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Someone once made a very good comment on the subject of "I might go to Africa someday..."

The advice was to remember that the cost of a DG hunt in Africa makes the purchase of a DGR a small fraction of the cost.

I have a .416. It is a handful. I have been shooting full power loads a lot lately in prep for a hunt. Otherwise, I shoot cast bullets at 1800 fps or so.

I would disagree on one point: a .416 recoils quite a bit more than a 12 ga slug gun, at least in my opinion. A 1 ounce slug wieghs 437 grains, just a bit more than a 400 gr .416 bullet. However, the difference in velocity is much different- 33% higher in the .416.

Oh, that Sako was about as pleasant as 8lb pump shotgun stuffed with 2&1/4oz 3.5inch loads.

quote:

I would disagree on one point: a .416 recoils quite a bit more than a 12 ga slug gun...

I shoot a 535 grain sabot in an 8 pound shotgun. To me, the recoil feels about the same. Nothing scientific, just a seat-of-the-pants sensation. Obviously your milage may vary.

Get a .338 win. and use 300 gr. Woodleighs or 285 gr. Northforks...The 30-06 is a good enough bear gun IMO, with 180 or 200 gr. Noslers..and the 375 is also a good caliber...

A shotgun is not a bear stopper IMO, better suited as a quail stopper....

Place your emphasis on bullet placement and less on caliber and you will never go wrong.

I'd vote for the 375 H&H as I believe it is the most useful all around caliber one can own. IMHO no rifle collection for dangerous game is complete with out one.

465H&H

get the 416 so when you do go to africa you can shoot it well

quote:

My solution has been that I started with the .375H&H and then got the .458 Win.

Same for me, though I have really been debating about sending the .458 for an upgrade to Lott. Anyway, the .375 is the ultimate all around caliber IMHO though I am yet to embark on a dangerous game hunt. I shoot it frequently and I really don't mind the recoil if standing and since I got a Caldwell's Lead Sled, the bench work is nowhere near the chore it used to be.

If you are directing your hunting animals large and high body mass as the elephant, rhino, etc. hiccups ... I would choose the 458 Win Mag, which although in its infancy did not have very good reputation, was by then loads I believe that today these problems have been solved and is very capable of reducing an elephant enraged, although I to stop the loading of an elephant me better entrusted to a 505 or 500 Jeffery Gibbs.

However, if your goals are especially large hunting antelope and occasionally an animal of you I have said before, since the 375 H & H Magnum you're well armed, as a gauge for all par excellence.

A greeting and good hunting,

Oscar.

I have no experience with any of these, so take my comment FWIW. But being the independent, hard-headed guy that I am, I would choose the .375 H&H. I don't know how they perform against game like deer, but I have doubts whether they would generally do any more meat damage than a 12 gauge slug. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
If I were going against brown bear, I think I'd appreciate the extra edge of the .375 vs. the .338.

I would pick the 375 just because you will enjoy shooting it more. Becasue of that you will shoot it more and probably be a better shot with it.

I've burned two pounds of gunpowder in mine in the last month and I still look forward to going to the range with it every week.

I bought mine in 2004 and have probably shot 1,000 rounds through it already and I'm still having fun. People say that you can't wear the barrel out of a 375 H&H, I'm having a blast trying to prove them wrong.

My varmint guns and my 375 are all I shoot now. I had to buy some factory loads for my 300 WSM (the first factory centerfire ammunition that I've bought in over 10 years) just to get it ready to go as a back up for my Namibia trip in August.

I dont' see the 375 as a better "all arounder" as the 416..other than recoil and if recoil is a factor then the 375 is best, the 338 is better and so fourth.

The .416 will sizzle 300 and 350 gr. bullet along side the 06 and 270 or the 375 with 250 and 270 gr. bullets, and wind doesn't scare it much...

You have the option to 450 gr. bullets and that ups it of near 458 Lott figures. It is hard to out distance the .416 Rem., Rigby or Ruger, as much as I like my .375 H&H.....

But like I said if recoil is a factor you may prefer the 375...

I have a 9.3x62 and a 416 Rem. I figure that to be a good combination too.

I am sure the 9.3 would be good on bears out to 200 yards using 250gn TSXs at 2550 fps. Recoil would be milder than a 375 and the rifle would more than likely be lighter - if that counts.

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread when I ask this, but would any of the first two be suitable for use in brush?

Ahhh -- another three-year old thread back from the dead!

When you ask about using them in the brush, what do you mean? Always best to have a clear shot.

Of course, I have not hunted with the .416 so maybe I should bow out.

Well you said you don’t reload. While all the mentioned calibers are exhalent. You mentioned Africa some day. For the most part I do agree with Ray, the 416 is a great choice but you do get the upgrade in weight and recoil. I would recommend the .375H&H. It can be bought with bullets from 235gr to 350gr will kill everything and think of the fun of hunting Africa with such a classic caliber that you have used extensively in the states.
Bill

quote:

Ahhh -- another three-year old thread back from the dead!

When you ask about using them in the brush, what do you mean? Always best to have a clear shot.

Yeah, it's the "Night of the Living Thread!"


I prefer the clear shot myself. But in cases when you just absolutely had to make a shot through thin underbrush (such as when you're too dumb to place your stand correctly, as I'm prone to do. )



I'm not seriously considering using one of these as a deer cartridge, mind you. Just for the sake of discussion.

To keep this thread from dieing a noble death, since the question orginally concerned just the 375 and the 416 Rem, and the person does not hand load, then ammunition availability in some little hole in the wall around Soldatna might be a consideration.

My guess 375 H&H shells probably 270 or 300 grainers, are going to be easier to find.

Having shot both the 375 and a 458, not a 416, I go along with the concept that a person will shoot the 375 more.

I use mine regularly for hunting white tail deer and elk, and I have also klilled white tail with the 458.

If things were to devolve so far that I were limited to owning just one center fire rifle for all my hunting, it would be the 375 H&H.

I agree with mrlexma! For North American game you would be better served with the .338 Win. Mag.! A .340 Wby. Mag. would be my choice. Of course they were only available from Winchester's Custom Shop for afew years in the late 90's. So, in the Model 70 a .340 would most likely be a custom non-factory rifle.

.375 H&H.

I've shot everything from Francolin to elephant with mine.

Since I got it I haven't touched my .338; the .375 is WAY more pleasant to shoot and will certainly do everything it will and then some.