For hunters traveling outside the US with large bore rifles, we seem to have the odd story posted here about ammo being seized at the airport or certain "over 50" caliber rifles being denied for temporary export.

This is the legal info that will at least provide the answers to the "why?".

The problem isn't with the carrier's willingness to transport the ammo- it has to do with classification of "Firearms" and what US Citizens are by law allowed to temporarily export without a permit.

First is the definition of a "Firearm":

Arms Export Control Act of 1976, Sec. 38, as Amended
Title 22, United States Code, § 2778
The U.S. Munitions Import List

CATEGORY I-FIREARMS
(a) Nonautomatic and semiautomatic firearms, to caliber .50 inclusive, combat shotguns, and shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches in length, and all components and parts for such firearms.
CATEGORY II-ARTILLERY PROJECTORS
(a) Guns over caliber .50, howitzers, mortars, and recoilless rifles


So, technically, your over .50 caliber is not actually a "Firearm"... it's an "Artillery Projector".

Rather than loooking towards the carriers, look at the International Traffic In Arms Regulations


22 C.F.R. § 123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition.
(c) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:
(1) A declaration by the U.S. person and an inspection by a customs officer is made;
(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be with the U.S. person's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and
(3) They must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The foregoing exemption is not applicable to a crew-member of a vessel or aircraft unless the crew-member declares the firearms to a Customs officer upon each departure from the United States, and declares that it is his or her intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States. It is also not applicable to the personnel referred to in §123.18.



So, here’s the challenge: the homeland security guy (TSA or US Customs) inspecting your rifle doesn’t know that a “50-cal†actually has a bore diameter of .510â€â€¦ and he assumes that the smaller bored “505†is actually larger than a “500â€...


Nor does he know that the 600 OK is not categorized as an "Artillery Projector" because it has been reviewed by the ATF and received an exemption to be classified as a sporting cartridge.


Nor does he know that regardless of caliber, double rifles are NOT classified as Category II(a) destructive devices.

Within the letter of the law, however, he is correct in prohibiting their temporary export if the caliber is "over 50."

The problem is with the way the International Traffic In Arms Regulations is written... or the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 is written... or both

I think there is a misinterpretation here because the term "gun" traditionally referred to a crew-served weapon (artillery). So a double rifle in .600 NE is not a "gun" even though it is over .50".

Chris,

I am not arguing with you, you know more about this stuff than I ever will that's for sure, but I am curious, why does Customs issue Form 4577's for these rifles? I got one for my Gibbs two weeks ago with no problems whatsoever. Clearly the form is for someone leaving the country with the item. It is not like they will issue the form for anything, I had an old FN rifle without a serial number and he was firm but polite that he would not register that weapon.

So a .495 A-Square is OK?

Dan - Double rifles with bores over 50 are not classified as "Destructive Devices" (Category IIa). I have not been able to find that written in law anywhere, but do have a letter from the Director of BATF&E Imports stating such.

re: "Gun"... It isn't defined in the terms, but "rifle" is.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/27cfr447.11.htm

Here are Category I and II in detail.
The U.S. Munitions Import List

category i--firearms

(a) Nonautomatic and semiautomatic firearms, to caliber .50
inclusive, combat shotguns, and shotguns with barrels less than 18
inches in length, and all components and parts for such firearms.
(b) Automatic firearms and all components and parts for such
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive.
(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms of other weapons
having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons
systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts for such
firearms.
(d) Firearms silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.
(e) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications and
specifically designed or modified components therefor.
Note: Rifles, carbines, revolvers, and pistols, to caliber .50
inclusive, combat shotguns, and shotguns with barrels less than 18
inches in length are included under Category I(a). Machineguns,
submachineguns, machine pistols and fully automatic rifles to caliber .50 inclusive are included
under Category I(b).

category ii--artillery projectors

(a) Guns over caliber .50, howitzers, mortars, and recoiless rifles.
(b) Military flamethrowers and projectors.
(c) Components, parts, accessories, and attachments for the articles
in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this category, including but not limited to
mounts and carriages for these articles.


Mike - I don't know... right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing?

The lack of consistency is the most troubling aspect of this -- at this point you honestly have no clue, regardless of whether anyone told you something before, what documentation you possess, whether you have a Form 4577, whether you have copies of regs, etc. concerning whoever you end up dealing with at the airport will give a rats ass about the issue and will listen to a thing you have to say. Sort of like the saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. When you are at the airport an hour away from leaving whoever you are dealing with holds all the cards and has absolute power. You might beat the rap, but you sure aren't going to beat the ride.

TSA/Customs =

I have a letter from the ATF stating that the GCA 18 U.S.C Section 921(17)(A) stating the 550 MAgnum cartridge is considered Ammunition. That no FFL is required to posses or deal in this ammo and the ammo is legal to have by any one not prohibited from possessing ammunition.

I also have a letter on the rifle stating the GCA of 1968, 18 U.S.C. &921(a)(b) That this is not a destructive device and is designed soley for sporting use.

These letter would go with me if I ever took the rifle outside the USA and I would then hand my cell phone to the offical and ask him if he would like to talk to the director who signed the letters.

What you should really do is go and sit down with your local ATF agent and talk it over with him and get a letter in writing.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Dan - Double rifles with bores over 50 are not classified as "Destructive Devices" (Category IIa). I have not been able to find that written in law anywhere, but do have a letter from the Director of BATF&E Imports stating such.

That is helpful. I suspect the same applies to bolt guns such as the .505 or .50 BMG target rifles. But I would hesitate to ask the ATF to write it down because they may change their mind and reclassify such firearms as DD.

RNS,

Great idea if you have time and are not leaving in less than two weeks and do not have a bunch of other things to do. But the other perspective is why should each individual have to go get a letter from someone to have to present to get their ammunition on a plane? I know the answer, reality sucks.

So what's the final word on this issue? Will I be able to legally and safely take my 600OK or 585AHR/585HE/577BME to Africa for Cape Buffalo or will I be limited to my .416 Weatherby?
Since I have time on my side, I can fill out any appropriate documentation as to the sporting and non DD nature of my rifles, but I would want to be absolutely certain that Wayne and Ed's handiwork at AHR doesn't grace the wall of someone other than me or whomever I bequeath it to ultimately.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
So what's the final word on this issue? Will I be able to legally and safely take my 600OK or 585AHR/585HE/577BME to Africa for Cape Buffalo or will I be limited to my .416 Weatherby?
Since I have time on my side, I can fill out any appropriate documentation as to the sporting and non DD nature of my rifles, but I would want to be absolutely certain that Wayne and Ed's handiwork at AHR doesn't grace the wall of someone other than me or whomever I bequeath it to ultimately.

I would do what RNS did and meet with the local ATF officials to tell them what kind of letter you want. Perhaps even show them a copy of RNS' letter from the ATF. Then show them the rifles and dummy rounds of ammo. I think you will get your letter, because it is obvious that such rifles have no real application in criminal activities such as bank robberies, drive by shootings, etc.

You may wish to take with you to the meeting a proposed itinerary and game list for your safari and a brochure from the outfitter so that the ATF agents understand this is a REAL trip, not a theoretial exercise.

The above is one man's opinion and it is worth precisely what you paid for it.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
So what's the final word on this issue? Will I be able to legally and safely take my 600OK or 585AHR/585HE/577BME to Africa for Cape Buffalo or will I be limited to my .416 Weatherby?
Since I have time on my side, I can fill out any appropriate documentation as to the sporting and non DD nature of my rifles, but I would want to be absolutely certain that Wayne and Ed's handiwork at AHR doesn't grace the wall of someone other than me or whomever I bequeath it to ultimately.

Paul,
You may want to ask Safarikid on here as he has taken his AHR 600 to Africa I think twice now.

I can get anyone who wants the letters a copy and this weekend I will try to scan them and post them or something.

I will talk to my ATF agent and see if he can get something for us that will help. He wants to go out shooting the 550 MAgnum so it would be a good reason to call him.

The guys at AHR building these beautiful rifles should provide the paperwork with the rifles to help the customers out.

One of the main problems is that we as gun owners have not exercised this option enough. When I did this work with the ATF the director called me directly to work with them to get this done. What I mean is my 550 MAgnum is the third rifle that has this paperwork on it. If we all put our paperwork in on our rifles and TSA agents and customs officers got used to seeing the paperwork it might make it easier on us.

It is so silly that a low paid ignorant about guns TSA guy can screw up a $20,000 safari

Good thing is the "500 Kill All" is a .500"

Thanks for passing the info on... It is good to have as "ammo" against the unwashed masses of "guns are icky" idiots.

quote:

but I would want to be absolutely certain that Wayne and Ed's handiwork at AHR doesn't grace the wall of someone other than me or whomever I bequeath it to ultimately.

Worst case scenario what happens?

Do they confiscate the ammo the rifle or both?

I suspect that ATF will tell you to talk to US Customs. They are the guys you'll have to deal with on exiting / entering the US.

If you've got an ATF "sporting rifle" designation letter in hand for an over 50, I think I would go to your local US Customs office, show an agent the ATF letter, point out the specifics of temporary export requirments as noted in:

International Traffic In Arms Regulations
22 C.F.R. § 123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition, section (c)

And ask them if they will approve the temporary export AND provide you with a letter to that effect.

They'll probably run you up the chain of command, and so on, but that's probably the best starting point...

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:

quote:

but I would want to be absolutely certain that Wayne and Ed's handiwork at AHR doesn't grace the wall of someone other than me or whomever I bequeath it to ultimately.

Worst case scenario what happens?

Do they confiscate the ammo the rifle or both?

Worst case is they press felony charges for (a) violating ITAR for allegedly exporting a destructive device, and (b) possessing a destructive device w/o ATF paperwork.

Right or wrong does not matter. $300K in attorneys fees later, hopefully you will be found not guilty.

I am not aware of that happening to anyone, but it could happen, making it a worst case scenario.

The AECA and ITAR have nothing to do with the BATFE or what kinds or calibers of firearms may or may not be legally possessed by US citizens.

The AECA and ITAR are export controls. They regulate what, in the way of firearms, ammunition and other various kinds of defense articles, can be exported from the US. They are administered by the US State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

What the BATFE categorizes as a firearm or destructive device is entirely irrelevant to the issue of what the State Department will allow one to export.

Under the AECA and ITAR, it is illegal, without an export license, for a US citizen to export a rifle of greater than .50 caliber (12.7mm) or ammunition for such a rifle - even temporarily for purposes of a hunting trip. The law is clear on that.

The law appears to be little known and is apparently seldom enforced - but it is the law, nonetheless.

At the very least, anyone who ignores the requirements of the AECA and ITAR risks a major disruption of his safari plans at the last and most inconvenient moment.

This is why the only solution is to change the law.

Here is the text of my email to the TSA:


I have checked out the following link on your website regarding traveling with ammunition.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

My question is that I have recently heard about several instances of hunters traveling by air that had their ammunition confiscated (one hunter in Denver traveling with .577 Nitro Express ammunition and one at DFW traveling with .505 Gibbs ammunition) on the basis that the caliber of the ammunition was greater than .500. In reviewing the information posted on the link above, I can find no reference to such a caliber limitation or restriction. I am traveling to Africa in two weeks and was planning to take a rifle that might fall into this category. Before I show up at the airport I want to make sure whether there is any problem with the ammunition for the rifle. Can you please help me understand whether there is any caliber-based restriction? Thank you very much.



Here is the text of their reply:


Thank you for your email message concerning the checked baggage screening process and how it affects passengers carrying firearms in checked baggage.

The requirements for transporting firearms have not changed. Passengers must declare the firearm with the airline and adhere to airline policies and regulations. In accordance with 49 CFR §1540.111, firearms must be unloaded, packed in a hard-sided, locked case, and inaccessible to passengers during flight. Only the passenger may hold the key to the locked case. You may view this regulation on TSA's website at www.tsa.gov by clicking first on Law & Policy, then on Transportation Security Regulations, and scrolling to the information in Section C of that web page.

TSA recommends that passengers leave checked baggage unlocked. This is not a requirement, however, and if your suitcase also serves as your hard-sided, locked gun case, it may not be left unlocked.

Enhanced security measures require that all checked baggage undergo some form of screening. Physical search of the luggage may be required to clear every alarm, and baggage screeners may have to force open locked baggage in order to carry out their duties if they are unable to unlock or otherwise open the baggage. Travelers who lock their checked baggage must do so with the understanding that this may cause delays for themselves and/or their baggage.

However, TSA will NOT force open locked baggage if it knows the baggage contains guns or ammunition. If we have to open your checked bag containing a gun or ammunition, we will make every effort to contact you and have you open the bag for our screeners. If we cannot clear your bag, then your bag will not make your flight.

TSA is not liable for any damage to the locks or luggage that occurs in the process of opening a bag for security purposes. However, you may file a claim with TSA for any items allegedly lost or damaged during the inspection.

We hope this information is helpful. In addition, we are sending the following general information about checked baggage screening that may also be useful to you.

The Aviation and Transportation Security Act (ATSA) established the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and mandated deadlines for enhanced security measures. TSA has worked to meet its mandates and at the same time provide an increased level of customer service. You can find these tips and more under the "Our Traveler" heading on the TSA website.

In some airports, the checked baggage screening process is integrated into the airline's baggage handling process. In this case, checked baggage screening is completed outside the view of passengers. In other airports, the checked baggage screening is completed in a public area of the terminal and passengers may be nearby when their baggage is screened. Once the screening process is completed, passengers are not permitted to repack or handle their baggage.

TSA screeners exercise great care during the screening process to ensure that your contents are returned to your bag every time a bag needs to be opened. TSA will assess, on an individual basis, any loss or damage claims made to TSA. You may call the TSA Contact Center toll-free at 1-866-289-9673 for assistance with filing a claim.

TSA's travel tips online provide information about prohibited and permitted items, the screening process and procedures, and guidance for special considerations, which may assist in preparing for air travel. We also encourage you to visit our website at www.tsa.gov for additional information about TSA. We continue to add new information and encourage you to check the website frequently for updated information.

TSA Contact Center


I like the approach -- if the question is one that is too hard or that you do not have a good answer to, just answer another question.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
The AECA and ITAR have nothing to do with the BATFE or what kinds or calibers of firearms may or may not be legally possessed by US citizens.

The AECA and ITAR are export controls. They regulate what, in the way of firearms, ammunition and other various kinds of defense articles, can be exported from the US. They are administered by the US State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

What the BATFE categorizes as a firearm or destructive device is entirely irrelevant to the issue of what the State Department will allow one to export.

Under the AECA and ITAR, it is illegal, without an export license, for a US citizen to export a rifle of greater than .50 caliber (12.7mm) or ammunition for such a rifle - even temporarily for purposes of a hunting trip. The law is clear on that.

The law appears to be little known and is apparently seldom enforced - but it is the law, nonetheless.

At the very least, anyone who ignores the requirements of the AECA and ITAR risks a major disruption of his safari plans at the last and most inconvenient moment.

This is why the only solution is to change the law.

Soooooo the largest without Murphy's law messing you up is 12.7mm or .500"

Hellllooooo 500 Kill All.

Make the 505 Gibbs into a 500 Gibbs. Swage down 505 bullets.

You won't miss that last .005" nor will the buff and you can plink with pistol bullets.

Do we need to travel with a micrometer in our cases to prevent getting arrested?!?!?!?!

Its so sad that idiots are protecting/tearing down our 2nd Amdmt. Rights.

Hmmmmm... .500" Rigby?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
This is why the only solution is to change the law.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you are correct.

So Chris.....can I take my new 500 Jeff with me? You know that buff is waiting in Zambia for that 535 grain pill .

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

So the .495 A-Square (which actually uses a .510 caliber bullet) should fly through customs lol

Chuck

I have converted the .600OK to a paradox gun successfully thru the ingenious addition of a swageomatic .499 cal muzzel brake/ cleaning rod guide. Machined so well you can't tell its not just part of the barrel. Its a 100 yr old idea whose time has come again. No problems at any airport so far. Just be nice and have your letter on the ammo ready for examination if requested. Very few examiners have carried calipers to question my caliber anyway. Recoil is enhanced with the device in place so some mods may perhaps be required at the final destination.-Rob ::

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I have converted the .600OK to a paradox gun successfully thru the ingenious addition of a swageomatic .499 cal muzzel brake/ cleaning rod guide. Machined so well you can't tell its not just part of the barrel. Its a 100 yr old idea whose time has come again. No problems at any airport so far. Just be nice and have your letter on the ammo ready for examination if requested. Very few examiners have carried calipers to question my caliber anyway. Recoil is enhanced with the device in place so some mods may perhaps be required at the final destination.-Rob ::

From the Doubles forum (in which this thread is referenced):

More bad news ...

What a load of B.S. !!! Let's hope that our NRA can be effective in addressing this because the avalanche has only just begun ...