I followed the recent thread on dangerous game cartridges, and came away from it thinking that 375 H&H with a 300gr solid might be a bit light for an elephant.

It is also a good excuse to feed my GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) .

I have 24 months before the hunt, but time passes quickly, especially the rifle company I am thinking of has a twelve month delivery schedule. So, I have six months to nail down the particulars and put an order in.

Caliber: .450 Rigby or .458 Lott. I am leaning towards the 450 Rigby. I thought about the .500 calibers, but having fired my grandfather's .577NE Royal H&H double recently, I might as well have a truck run over me (though this might be because it was custom made for him with a shorter LOP than I, and the Monte Carlo stock is on the wrong side). I did not have an issue with a .458 WM I tried out.

Stock: Männlicher. I have always wanted one of these, and this is the opportunity. An option is Mercury recoil reducer in stock.

Barrel Length: 20 or 22 inches. Leaning towards 20", but would like opinions one way or another.

Sights: Iron sights, type to be determined, probably one of NECG ones with a removable hood.

Action: LH, CRF Granite Mountain action.

I'd welcome any opinions.

450 Rigby has the cool factor. You can also keep the pressures low and easily reach Lott and win mag velocities or load it up and out perform. Lott might be easier to find ammo for in camp.

Get a 450NE double rifle if you think the 500NE would be too heavy on recoil.

Well, to each his own I guess. I have no issues with your caliber choice, the .450 Rigby will be great, although .458 Lott ammunition will be much easier to lay your hands on. Personally, I would not do a Mannlicher stock on a safari rifle. Just more wood to lug around and I would tend to favor a more English safari rifle look. Same on the barrel length. Personally, I would not consider a length under 24". The longer barrel rifles balance better, handle fine and just look more in keeping with a British rifle. I think your choice of actions and sights are sound too.

``the longer barrels balance better``

That depends on each individual rifle,and how they are made like the thickness of the barrels etc...

Using that big .8" bolt I would want to use a larger case like the 505 Gibbs. I think Manlicher stocks look better on smaller actions IMHO. Recoil an issue you say? Go classy and go 450 Nitro double.

With good handloads, with a .458 WM, you can nearly reach Lott capabilities. Not comfortably but with in 65 fps. It's not difficult to obtain 2150 out of the .458 WM with some of today's powders, if you are considering the .458.
.416 Rem Mag is also another consideration and there are plenty of those around. They also will do anything in Africa you want to do.

I went thru the same thought process... 458 Lott, 458 Rigby, 450 Dakota.

I arrived at the 404 Jeffery. 430 gr NF solids.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
...
.416 Rem Mag is also another consideration and there are plenty of those around. They also will do anything in Africa you want to do.

Already having 375H&H, I thought the 416 Rem Mag/Rigby would be just a minor step up. My thinking was if I was gonna go bigger, at least to go to the 450s.

I am not considering doubles for a variety of reasons.

Good thought about the gun balance with the shorter barrel. That is a question I will have to ask the manufacturer.

I believe the .416, whether Remington or Rigby is a significant step up over the .375. Most of the PH's would rather see a caliber that you shoot well and are not afraid of than a mega bore something that you are not accurate with. I would be very confident with a .416 and a well made solid for elephant.

On my first ele hunt I used a 450 NE and it performed well and I was pleased. On my second ele hunt I used a 458 Lott and it also performed well, you can see the more power in the lott and I believe its just the thing for ele. It has power, accuracy, easier to get ammo for if yours is lost in transit, can use 458 Win Mag ammo in a pinch, and can be loaded with other bullet weights & types and used well on other game animals, availability of components. I would take the lott over the Rigby and make my life easier.

Why not a 223? Plenty of AR members would probably endorse that choice.

I urge you to look at the B&M website of Michael458, the primary contributor to the Terminal Bullet Performance thread at the top of the Big Bore forum. These rifles are custom built by SSK on Winchester Mdl 70 WSM actions.

I have killed Ele with the 458Lott and with the 458B&M (and other calibers). I have sold both my 458Lott rifles. My B&M has a 20" bbl and provides ballistics between the 458wm and 458Lott. It is also available with an 18" or 19" bbl. Two of my hunting partners now also carry the 458B&M and both are also experienced DG hunters.

I would never again carry a 24" or 26" big bore rifle for DG. The short B&M rifles are much more maneuverable in close quarters, are easier to carry and handle/shoot like a dream. Every PH who has seen them are duly impressed and some are now being carried by PHs in africa and Oz.

do the lott, brass is 1000times easier

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
With good handloads, with a .458 WM, you can nearly reach Lott capabilities.

not exactly -- using the same techniques with a lott, you could add more to the lott ..


i grumble at comparing secret sauce special loads to run of the mill factory loads.. especially when the cases only vary in length

Want the power in a slightly different package?

I am just finishing up a 450/375 RUM. The 404 Jefferys case necked up to 458 caliber and improved. The same as the old 460 G&A from the early 1970's. Same amount of ME as the Lott, or a bit more. 500gr soft/solid at 2400fps. A shorter action, and an extra round.

I also have a 404 Jefferys built on a VZ-24 action. The gunsmith slightly lengthened and deepened the magazine box on the 404 and it now holds four rounds. Lots of firepower in a pinch.

Rich

PM me if you'd like a bit more information.

You have mentioned the Mannlicher stock.

Firstly the classic Mannlicher style stocks were on light 7 lbs scoped rifles with 18 inch barrel in calibres from 6.5 to 8mm. Occasionally you come across 9mm & 9.3 or bigger - but not very often.

Given the above you seem to be looking for a bolt rifle.

I am going on my first African safari this September & I got my first big bore - 416 Rigby. I might consider a tuskless cow elephant hunt.

Some years ago I shot a bunch of double rifles with Sam in the US. I liked the 450/400 the best and shot well with it. The 470 hammered me and the 600 NE pushed me back a full step while i missed the target at 25 meters!

If I was able to shoot the 458WM comfortably, I would stay with that kind of recoil. I am now focusing on having complete confidence in my ability to handle my rifle and shoot accurately without worrying about recoil. My 416 Rigby is loaded to standard velocity & I am very happy with it. When I tried the higher velocities (200 fps more) I stared getting battered.

All the best - hope you get a really nice rifle and have a great hunt.

hey rich. where does that extra round fit? the lott case is .532 diameter nominal, while the rum is .550 ..

I second LionHunters advice.

Have Brian at SSK build you a 458 B&M, you will not regret it.

They are building me a 500 B&M, their current lead time is about 3 months.

I shot my first Elephant with a 375 and lost it as it went into another area and we couldn't follow. It did die but I did not get it. Second I bought a 470NE Merkel for and took a nice one. Last one I used a 416Rigby custom with a 21" barrel as had the 375H&H. I find the short barrel very handy in the rough and in and out of a truck. I like the 416Rigby very much as the recoil is not too stiff and it is effective on Elephant. As to a Mannlicher stock,why not if that's what you want. Actually one of the most efficient rifles I ever saw in Africa was a Mannlicher-Schoenuer full stock with rotary magazine and it was in 458 Win Mag and the hunter had a totally perfect record with it. It just epitomized tough in it's short good looks and was one of the smoothest rifles I ever handled. I never got to shoot it but sure wanted to.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
...
Have Brian at SSK build you a 458 B&M, you will not regret it.
...

I am a lefty. Winchester no longer makes Model 70 actions in LH since they moved their factory a while back.

Now, the rifle maker I am considering would chamber Wildcats for an extra $500 as an option. However, I am also reluctant to deal with having to cut the brass down to size etc..

What does 458B&M do that one can not do with the 450 Rigby or 458 Lott?

I would go with the 458 Lott, ammo and cases easier to find and if in a pinch you can shoot 458 Win mag ammo as well.

I am a big fan of mannlicher stocks and 18 to 20" barrels...

However on a 458 barreled "elephant gun" I would forgo the full length stock and go with at least a 22 to 24" barrel.

It would have a very slim stock, in the British bolt rifle form of between the Wars.

Actually, to save a lot of Drama, a Heym Express in 458 Lott would be a perfect choice.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would go with the 458 Lott, ammo and cases easier to find and if in a pinch you can shoot 458 Win mag ammo as well.

I am a big fan of mannlicher stocks and 18 to 20" barrels...

However on a 458 barreled "elephant gun" I would forgo the full length stock and go with at least a 22 to 24" barrel.

It would have a very slim stock, in the British bolt rifle form of between the Wars.

Actually, to save a lot of Drama, a Heym Express in 458 Lott would be a perfect choice.

. . . at last a voice of reason.

Well anuses and opinions. We all have em. Here is mine. I have used these calibers on elephant.
375
450/400
458 win
458 lott
577

When I did my part they all worked just fine. My preference is for the 577 because elephants in thick brush scare me and a bigger club makes me feel better but it is just psychological.

So here is my preference on the choice. You said this is your elephant hunt which indicates you are only going to hunt one maybe two elephants. My experience is that shooting an elephant is usually a very emotional experience. It is truly an event in the life of a hunter. You will spend the rest of your life reflecting back to "when you shot your elephant". Because of that the criteria I would set for the rifle goes like this by priority
1. How soon can you get your hands on the rifle. You want it at a minimum a year ahead of time so you can shoot it a lot and if it has issues you will have time to have it fixed in plenty of time to get it back and make sure it is ready to go.
2.Dependability: will is fire and eject feed and fire again under all circumstances
3. Since this rifle will become "your elephant rifle" after you shoot your Elephant is it something that you will enjoy owning for the rest of your life but Is it so fancy or expensive that you won't be willing to take it out and get lots of practice.
4. Can you, in our present scarcity of ammunition get or reload all the ammo that you need to shoot the rifle a minimum of a hundred times before your hunt. It really is helpful to get out and do some hunting for hogs deer or anything else before you go.
5.Caliber would be down the list as long as it meets the above criteria and doesn't recoil so heavily that you can"t shoot it well enough.

There you have it. Have fun on your hunt elephant hunting really is the most amazing experience that you can have in the hunting fields of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by els:
My preference is for the 577 because elephants in thick brush scare me ...

Me too

Another big advantage of a .458 bore rifle is durring the off season, when there are no elephants or cape buff around, or in your later years, when you elephant hunting days are over is that you can easialy load it down to 45/70 ballistics with 300, 350 or 400 gr bullets and still hunt deer, pigs, black bear over bait and elk/moose and big bears in the thick stuff with it.

Or just take it out and shoot some turtles, rocks or cactus with it.

And also, there is also Australia.
They have water buff, scrub bulls and banteng...

jeffe,

I have this friend that is a gunsmith by trade. About twenty years or so.

I have the VZ-24 barreled action in 404 Jefferys on my lap. He cut the magazine box vertically and welded a couple of spacers in to lengthen it. He then bent a piece of sheet metal and welded it to the bottom of the box to deepen it.

After he finished that, he cut the one-piece trigger guard/floor plate in half just in front of the trigger guard, and made a quarter-arc piece of metal that he welded in. There is now a curve downwards. On the outside, my magazine box measures 3.800" long.

It might be magic, but I have just finished loading four 404J loaded rounds into the box of the VZ and closed the bolt on a fifth round.

Rich

Thanks for all the points. It looks like 458 Lott is the preferred choice in caliber due to availability of loading data, flexibility etc..

As mentioned in the OP I can go 22" on the Mannlicher stock. However, if I go the standard stock route, well the choice becomes easy (and a third of the cost). McMillan, which has built my other rifles, can build me a 458 Lott in left handed CRF action, and deliver in 6 months or so.

As far as being able to shoot it concerned due to reloading component shortage, I just looked at the Barnes book. Favorite powder seems to be IMR4064 of which I have several pounds of on my bench. The only sourcing issue I have is finding Federal 215M, do have plenty of regular Federal 215 though.

I shoot my rifles, so no worries that I'd be afraid to take it out because it is too fancy or expensive. An African hunt is much more expensive to not be proficient with one's gun before the hunt.

I am not concerned about dependability. Whichever stock route I go, the vendors are very reliable, and I'd have enough rounds through the rifle to make sure it does fire, eject, feed and fire again. Both also guarantee sub MOA groups with factory ammo.

I'm sure the Lott will get the job done as it is an excellent round. However, using a 22" barrel will max out your velocity at less than the Rigby. I can easily get 2400 fps/500grs. or even more with the 450 Rigby from a 22" barrel, it would take some alchemy to do that with the Lott. It depends how much that means to you, again the Lott will surely get the job done. If you already reload no problems for the Rigby but a Lee Factory crimp is very recommended. I'd hate to spend good money to build a rifle and then start chasing velocity and drive myself crazy. Depends on where you want to be on this.

Tanks,

If you will be using the Granite Mountain action, then get something special that fits the action. The Lott and 375 H&H casehead are relatively small and do not take advantage of the action.

The 450 Rigby would be nice, as would the 500 Mbogo and 500 A-Square. These last two can provide over 8000ftlbs. The 450 Rigby might get to 8000 ftlbs but safety and a conservative approach would limit the expectations to 7000-7500 ftlbs. That would be more than enough, 6500-7000 might be nice, too.

As one descends below the 7000 ftlb. level, another control-feed action is available, the Ruger Hawkeye, Left Hand. It is a good platform for the 500 AccurateReloading Nyati. The standard action would nicely fit a 20-22" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
jeffe,

I have this friend that is a gunsmith by trade. About twenty years or so.

I have the VZ-24 barreled action in 404 Jefferys on my lap. He cut the magazine box vertically and welded a couple of spacers in to lengthen it. He then bent a piece of sheet metal and welded it to the bottom of the box to deepen it.

After he finished that, he cut the one-piece trigger guard/floor plate in half just in front of the trigger guard, and made a quarter-arc piece of metal that he welded in. There is now a curve downwards. On the outside, my magazine box measures 3.800" long.

It might be magic, but I have just finished loading four 404J loaded rounds into the box of the VZ and closed the bolt on a fifth round.

Rich

So, no actual benefit of the round, which your writing intimated. Extra gunsmithing generally does cool and expensive stuff

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... The 450 Rigby might get to 8000 ftlbs but safety and a conservative approach would limit the expectations to 7000-7500 ftlbs. That would be more than enough, 6500-7000 might be nice, too.

I did find a web site that did a review on a CZ 450 Rigby rifle. It had quite a bit of load data. Max energy was around 6600 ftlbs though with 500gr bullets, nowhere near 7000-7500. Not that 6500 is not adequate for what I want out of the rifle .
http://www.realguns.com/loads/450Rigby.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
jeffe,

I have this friend that is a gunsmith by trade. About twenty years or so.

I have the VZ-24 barreled action in 404 Jefferys on my lap. He cut the magazine box vertically and welded a couple of spacers in to lengthen it. He then bent a piece of sheet metal and welded it to the bottom of the box to deepen it.

After he finished that, he cut the one-piece trigger guard/floor plate in half just in front of the trigger guard, and made a quarter-arc piece of metal that he welded in. There is now a curve downwards. On the outside, my magazine box measures 3.800" long.

It might be magic, but I have just finished loading four 404J loaded rounds into the box of the VZ and closed the bolt on a fifth round.

Rich

Nothing magic about it, it's just the old school version of making a drop magazine for the M98. New school, everybody wants to replace the bottom metal but back when, it was common practice to modify the existing bottom metal.

Of course that implies that you either need an old gunsmith or a young one that was trained in the old school methods...getting kind of hard to find an old school trained gunsmith anymore, but there are a few of us around.

Colin

quote:

I did find a web site that did a review on a CZ 450 Rigby rifle. It had quite a bit of load data. Max energy was around 6600 ftlbs though with 500gr bullets, nowhere near 7000-7500. Not that 6500 is not adequate for what I want out of the rifle Smiler.

I was thinking along older published 460 Weatherby lines, which should have a similar capacity. I know that all of my 416 Rigbys have had no problems at 6200 ftlbs, showing round-edged primers and smooth ejection.

I have no idea how the Weatherby got to 8000 ftlbs. Maybe a long freebore and overpressure loads?

6500-7000 looks more reasonable, and I respect Joe Alessandro's work. Go with it if you do a 450 Rigby. I would expect that the Weatherby loads might work better at that level, too.

From a ballistics standpoint it's all about the pressure. I believe standard Rigby loads are in the high forties and Weatherby 460 in the sixties. In the real world what load you can handle best should make the decision. For me it wasn't the pain threshold but more handling the rifle for quick , accurate follow up shots etc. Finding the right place took some time at the range but that's a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by 4-5-0:
... For me it wasn't the pain threshold but more handling the rifle for quick , accurate follow up shots etc. Finding the right place took some time at the range but that's a good thing.

Yep, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

I agree with those who advocate the 458 Lott, and for the same reasons, especially the fact that it will shoot 458wm ammo, which is the easiest of all elephant ammo to source in the field.

I have had to source ammo in country, and what I found was that 375H&H and 458wm is common, 458 Lott not so common but not rare and 470NE is about as common as 458 Lott. Any other cartridge and the odds go way down, some to about 0%.

For that reason alone I would have one rifle in 375H&H, and my primary elephant rifle would be a 458 Lott if I was going to use a bolt rifle. The fact that you are a lefty, as I am, makes the second elephant legal and capable rifle, in a cartridge you can source in country or maybe in the bush, essential, imo. Lefty rifles are as rare as hen's teeth in the bush.

A 458wm and a decent handload will get the job done well. The Lott offers a bit more, including the option of 550gr solids if you choose.

As I see it, if I wanted to exceed Lott performance and so recoil, I would be shooting a bigger bullet out of a 500 of some sort at 2100fps or better.

I am sure that a short barrel rifle could be made to balance as well as one with a 23" or so barrel, but the barrel contour is going to be thick to replace the weight "out there" on a longer barrel rifle, and there will be little or maybe no weight savings. And if you go with the Lott but end up relying on WM ammo, I wouldn't want the ~75fps-100fps loss of velocity the shorter barrel delivers.

My double rifle has 26 1/4" barrels, which translates to about 21 1/4" worth of bolt rifle length or so. That length has never been an issue, and for that matter neither has the 23" barrel on my 375H&H.

JPK

In a 458 bore rifle a 480 Woodleigh Solid at @2150, and a 450 North Fork Flat Point Solid at @2220 have proven to be reliable elephant killers side or frontal brain, from any angle.

Also Softs and Solids at these same velocities have performed perfectly on cape buff and other plains game, such as eland and wildebest as well.

I see no need to take the recoil from a 458 with 480 or 500gr bullet at 2300 fps or above.

All you gain is extra recoil, Just IMHO of course.

My main elephant and buff rifle is a 450 No2 double rifle with 28" barrels.

I would not change a thing on it...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
,,,
For that reason alone I would have one rifle in 375H&H, and my primary elephant rifle would be a 458 Lott if I was going to use a bolt rifle....
JPK

My other rifle is a 24" McMillan Heritage in 375H&H. The way it is now, I'd use it for the cats, and the new gun on anything bigger. As you said, they'd also back each other up.

Howdy Colin,
I know how to make rifles feed, as do you.. Rich inferred going with a 458 ultra would add a round over anything else, no other changes, which is why I called him on that

If you are to hunt escarpment country such as found in Chewore, Dande south, Omay or Makuti I would use something like this light 458W;