quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Howdy Colin,
I know how to make rifles feed, as do you.. Rich inferred going with a 458 ultra would add a round over anything else, no other changes, which is why I called him on that

My bad, I thought we were talking about the 404J, I must have missed the part about the 458.

Colin

Sorry, my bad.

I assumed that anyone posting on this thread would know about the efficacy of the 404 Jefferys cartridge on Dangerous Game.

My load is 83gr of AA2520 and a 400gr soft/solid for a bit over 2450fps. That's over 5300ftlbs of ME, and five of them would be very comforting facing DG in Crisis Mode. That delivers a collective total of 26,300ftlbs ME to a target that is encountered. My enlarged magazine box (thank you! Colin) gives me five rounds

Similarly, by inference; the 450/375 RUM (in essence a 404 necked up and improved) James Kobe barreled for me would stack the same number of rounds in a magazine/chamber using a Mauser or an OM70. With five rounds of 500gr softs/solids at 2350fps would generate over 31,200+ ftlbs of ME by time a reload was needed.

I am of the strong opinion that any issues would be sorted out by then with either cartridge.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If you are to hunt escarpment country such as found in Chewore, Dande south, Omay or Makuti I would use something like this light 458W;

That is one sweet looking 458.

I have hunted in Chewore south for elephant cape buff and lion, I used my [well actually if you ask her, my wifes] 450/400 double rifle. It weighs 10.2oz, no problems, and on my first Safari in the Omay I used my 450 No2, with its 28" barrels and a weight over 11 pounds.
I did learn why Hannibal used elephants when he crossed the Alps. Simply stated elephants can go places where even a mountain goat cannot
go.

However whenever I felt my 450 No2 might be getting a little heavy, I would see a big pile of fresh elephant or buff dung, or a fresh foot print, or hear an elephant trumpet, not to mention all of a sudden bump into an elephant up close...

THEN the 450 No2 "didnot seem so heavy NO more"...

But again, that is a nice looking rifle, even IF it only has one barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If you are to hunt escarpment country such as found in Chewore, Dande south, Omay or Makuti I would use something like this light 458W;

I'm curious Ozhunter, what does that one weigh?

If you are set on a bolt rifle, and the action you have chosen is certainly sound, perhaps a another look at the 416 Rigby might be in order? The concern about finding ammo is much less with this - there is a ton of that ammo around Africa.

Penetration with the 416 Rigby, is very good, maybe among the best out there, there's not a lot of controversy over that. For an elephant only rifle, penetration, for me, is only behind the ability to place the bullet in the correct spot. Again, a place where the Rigby ( actually either the 416 or 450 ) does well.

The earlier post about considering a Heym Express was pretty good advice too. It's not a GMA action, but its a Prechtl, and there is a fair amount of beauty in them also! Besides, Chris has a special deal on those right now too. I have to agree with Mr. Jines also, the classic express look, is just Africa, if I had a Mannlicher stock, it would be in a smaller caliber.

FWIW, I've shot three elephants, all with 416, no recovered bullets, all thru and thru, from the side or quartering. Two were large, and seeing the distance and amount of bone these 400 grain solids pass thru is impressive.

quote:

I know how to make rifles feed, as do you.. Rich inferred going with a 458 ultra would add a round over anything else, no other changes, which is why I called him on that

Just saw the start of the thread again.

Any chance of having a lefty stock made for the 577NE double?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If you are to hunt escarpment country such as found in Chewore, Dande south, Omay or Makuti I would use something like this light 458W;

I have hunted elephant in Chewore, Omay and Makuti.

In some of that terrain I was counting the number of hard candies and sticks of gum I was putting in my pocket for the long walks or following tracks. With my double rifle (in 458wm) at 10.5lbs, I was also pondering acquiring a lighter rifle!

A light rifle in 458wm would be a nice rifle for elephant hunting in any territory. from 450gr at ~2250fps to 480grs at 2200fps to 500grs at 2150fps, what's not to love?

Recoil last but a moment, gravity is forever.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MikeE:
If you are set on a bolt rifle, and the action you have chosen is certainly sound, perhaps a another look at the 416 Rigby might be in order? The concern about finding ammo is much less with this - there is a ton of that ammo around Africa.

Penetration with the 416 Rigby, is very good, maybe among the best out there, there's not a lot of controversy over that. For an elephant only rifle, penetration, for me, is only behind the ability to place the bullet in the correct spot. Again, a place where the Rigby ( actually either the 416 or 450 ) does well.

The earlier post about considering a Heym Express was pretty good advice too. It's not a GMA action, but its a Prechtl, and there is a fair amount of beauty in them also! Besides, Chris has a special deal on those right now too. I have to agree with Mr. Jines also, the classic express look, is just Africa, if I had a Mannlicher stock, it would be in a smaller caliber.

FWIW, I've shot three elephants, all with 416, no recovered bullets, all thru and thru, from the side or quartering. Two were large, and seeing the distance and amount of bone these 400 grain solids pass thru is impressive.

Shooting a 458wm it is typical to have pass throughs on broadside or quartering away body shots on elephants, if you use a flat nose solid.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
...
Just saw the start of the thread again.

Any chance of having a lefty stock made for the 577NE double?

That rifle is an heirloom, my grandfather, and father used it in Africa and also it is worth a lot of money as they kept it pristine. It will have to skip a generation and go to my son.

Plus for what Holland & Holland would charge to redo a lefty version of the stock I could probably buy a few decent rifles. .

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Sorry, my bad.

I assumed that anyone posting on this thread would know about the efficacy of the 404 Jefferys cartridge on Dangerous Game.

My load is 83gr of AA2520 and a 400gr soft/solid for a bit over 2450fps. That's over 5300ftlbs of ME, and five of them would be very comforting facing DG in Crisis Mode. That delivers a collective total of 26,300ftlbs ME to a target that is encountered. My enlarged magazine box (thank you! Colin) gives me five rounds

Similarly, by inference; the 450/375 RUM (in essence a 404 necked up and improved) James Kobe barreled for me would stack the same number of rounds in a magazine/chamber using a Mauser or an OM70. With five rounds of 500gr softs/solids at 2350fps would generate over 31,200+ ftlbs of ME by time a reload was needed.

I am of the strong opinion that any issues would be sorted out by then with either cartridge.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Rich

I Crisis Mode, you will get one shot with a bolt rifle, unlikely but possibly two shots.

With a double rifle you will get two.

That is all the time there is.

In Zimbabwe, an elephant must be within 10yds for a shooting to even be considered a possible self defense shooting. Outside of 10yds and the presumption is that the elephant did not need to be shot.

An elephant accelerates very quickly to the often cited top speed of 25mph, which I believe is low. But assuming it is the speed of the elephant at the 10yd mark, the elephant will cover 37fps. You have less than 1 second between the maximum distance you can shoot in self defense and someone, maybe you, being dead.

[Btw, who want to hunt elephants with a medium bore?]

JPK

quote:

An elephant accelerates very quickly to the often cited top speed of 25mph, which I believe is low. But assuming it is the speed of the elephant at the 10yd mark, the elephant will cover 37fps. You have less than 1 second between the maximum distance you can shoot in self defense and someone, maybe you, being dead.

[Btw, who want to hunt elephants with a medium bore?]

On bore size, I would be as happy with a .423" projectile carrying 5300ftlbs as much or more than a .458 at 5000. Both of them are preferable to a .375" at 4500ftlbs.
Now a .510" at 6700 starts to look even better.

History favors the larger bullet at more modest velocity.

Moreover, a 458wm 500gr bullet at 2150, which is readily achieved in a 458wm, produces 5130lbs' of ME. That is 3% less energy than your favored 404 at 2450fps, but 25% more bullet weight and 17% more frontal area.

If your shot is perfect, just about any cartridge will do, and the 375H&H will certainly do. It is when it isn't perfect that energy, but only in combination with bullet weight and diameter, may save your hide. One of the factors alone hasn't proved sufficient, two sometimes sufficient and three reasonably reliably, when the benchmark minimums are 480grs bullet weight, 2150fps velocity*, .458" diameter.

* I would argue that the benchmark really emphasizes bullet weight and diameter over velocity and/or energy since the benchmark stopping rifle is the 450NE, which shoots the 480gr bullet at a nominal 2150fps, but nominal velocity was measured out of a 28" barrel, 28" barrels are not that common compared to 26" barrels, or even 24" barrels. I polled 450NE owners (owners of one variety or another of the 450 nitro express cartridges) and the average actual velocity was closer to 2100fps than 2150.

480grs at 2125fps produces 4800lbs' energy.

BTW, the historical definition of a medium bore included the 375H&H though the 400's, the 450/400NE's, the 416 the 404 and the 425WR included . Big bores started at the 450NE.

JPK

Actually, the action on the Heym Express is made totally in house at the Heym factory.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
History favors the larger bullet at more modest velocity. I would argue that the benchmark really emphasizes bullet weight and diameter over velocity and/or energy. JPK

Now you are talking of John Taylor's "Knock Out" value, bullet weight x velocity x bullet diameter, or in other words bullet momentum and frontal area. Most of the big bores in his day and even today perform well with a MV of around the 2100-2200fps so as you are emphasizing here, it just comes down to weight and diameter?

quote:

You have less than 1 second between the maximum distance you can shoot in self defense and someone, maybe you, being dead.

Seems to leave only,one good shot, maybe needs to be
something with way more than mystical 5000 ft lbs.
And not cost outrageous prices to shoot a lot,
like the 585HE. Ed

It's a better argument for a well fitted gun and great skill than anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
History favors the larger bullet at more modest velocity. I would argue that the benchmark really emphasizes bullet weight and diameter over velocity and/or energy. JPK

Now you are talking of John Taylor's "Knock Out" value, bullet weight x velocity x bullet diameter, or in other words bullet momentum and frontal area. Most of the big bores in his day and even today perform well with a MV of around the 2100-2200fps so as you are emphasizing here, it just comes down to weight and diameter?

No. As I wrote, history reflect a need for all three elements of performance, velocity, bullet weight and frontal area. One without the others didn't have a good history, two without the others didn't have a good history, but when all three were present near the nominal minimums - 480grs, 2150fps, .458" diameter, -history reflects a reasonably reliable record of deterring elephant attacks, even when the brain is missed closely.

Remember, a big bore was defined as a rifle of .458" bore or larger, and, as you note, they had a good track record with the standard English bullet weights, 480grs - 520grs for the 450's - 476, 570gr for the 500, 750grs for the 577, etc. - at 2100-2200fps.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:

quote:

You have less than 1 second between the maximum distance you can shoot in self defense and someone, maybe you, being dead.

Seems to leave only,one good shot, maybe needs to be
something with way more than mystical 5000 ft lbs.
And not cost outrageous prices to shoot a lot,
like the 585HE. Ed

I advocate the other route, which is less recoil than your suggestion but two shots with the time tested (minimum) formula of 480grs of bullet, with a diameter of .458" at about 2150fps. Costs go up though.

At the Lott I am pushing my recoil tolerance, so if limited to a bolt rifle, I would personally select a 10lb 458 Lott shooting 550gr Woodleigh solids. But I would be happy to hunt with a lighter 458wm too, especially when the going gets steep.

Bigger, like you advocate, would be better, if you can handle the recoil and/or the rifle weight.

BTW, when looking at photos of African hunters, you can immediately spot the elephant hunters and the buff hunters. The elephant hunter will be carrying his rifle, wearing a hat or cap of some sort, a pair of shorts, a pair of sunglasses and be carrying a belt full of solid ammo, only. Nothing else, no camera, no hydration pack, no other necessary weight. The buff hunter looks like an accessories add.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
It's a better argument for a well fitted gun and great skill than anything else.

It is a great argument for a well fitted (preferably double) rifle and lots of practice.

But when an elephant comes it isn't going to be like shooting at the range, you won't know when, you may not know where and you may not even be able to see the elephant until the last moment as it breaks through the bush. Even the very best, most skilled are not perfect, and circumstances may not permit a perfect shot either. And then it comes to deterring rather than killing, it comes back to what history has shown to be the reasonably reliable minimum, 480gr bullet of .458" diameter at about 2150fps.

JPK

A lot of good information based on field experience, one reason I love these forums. Thank you all.

I'm just a meat and potatoes buffalo man, with no ill-blood between my family and elephants. Still, I'll go in Ed's direction on this, assuming that he would consider .510" at 6700ftlbs 'going in his direction.' The factory Jeffrey, Gibbs, and AccRel Nyati all handle this. If one were to follow the prescription in the thread on 'Training for 375 ..." a person can learn to handle a 500. Everyone is agreed that being able to reliably handle and shoot the rifle is the absolute first criterion.

Will it lead to bursitis that Ray Atkinson mentioned in a related thread? Well, I'm already pretty old and don't get to shoot enough big bore as it is, so I'm not personally worried. I'm more concerned backing up my wife, or myself, with the most rifle that I can quickly handle. My 500AccRel Nyati is being re-stocked and re-bedded. I'm hoping that it ends up 9.5 lbs scoped, but it may go up to 10+, especially if I put in the 8oz mercury to balance the rear stock against the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I'm just a meat and potatoes buffalo man, with no ill-blood between my family and elephants. Still, I'll go in Ed's direction on this, assuming that he would consider .510" at 6700ftlbs 'going in his direction.' The factory Jeffrey, Gibbs, and AccRel Nyati all handle this. If one were to follow the prescription in the thread on 'Training for 375 ..." a person can learn to handle a 500. Everyone is agreed that being able to reliably handle and shoot the rifle is the absolute first criterion.

Will it lead to bursitis that Ray Atkinson mentioned in a related thread? Well, I'm already pretty old and don't get to shoot enough big bore as it is, so I'm not personally worried. I'm more concerned backing up my wife, or myself, with the most rifle that I can quickly handle. My 500AccRel Nyati is being re-stocked and re-bedded. I'm hoping that it ends up 9.5 lbs scoped, but it may go up to 10+, especially if I put in the 8oz mercury to balance the rear stock against the barrel.

I know you can train to desensitize yourself to recoil, I have to do it when I've laid off my big bores. I know I can shoot a 500NE, recoil of which is in the 458 Lott range, but that is about the limit I am confident that I can shoot without thinking about it.

Imo, if, after working into the recoil to desensitize myself, I still think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle, it is too much. I want to think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle exactly the same as I would shooting my deer rifle or one of my 22's, which is to say, not at all.

And then you get to rifle weight, you seem to prefer them light for cartridge, I'll just note that excessive rifle weight will hurt your elephant hunting. And note that light weight rifles can be great, but there is a minimum weight limit for every cartridge for everyone.

Also Tanzan, I just don't agree with or understand your fascination with velocity rather than bullet weight and/or frontal area. A 500NE for example, shoots a 570gr bullet at 2150fps 5850lbs' of energy, about 5600lbs' in the field with hunting rifle length barrels. Perfect!

To reach 6700lbs' of energy in a reasonable length rifle you need to push the 525gr bullet of the 505 Gibbs way beyond it's factory specs of 2300fps out of a 28" barrel for 6180lbs' of energy. If we assume a 24" barrel for a hunting rifle, the Gibbs was shooting with more like 5600lbs' of energy in the field, similar to the 500NE but missing 45grs of bullet weight.

The 500 Jeffery produces nominal ballistics of a 535gr bullet at 2400fps for 6800lbs', but again the spec barrel was 28". The Jeffery in the field, with a 24" barrel was running maybe 5700lbs' of energy, similar to the 500NE but missing 35grs of bullet weight.

And the sharp recoil produced by velocity has got to be uncomfortable!

JPK

quote:

mo, if, after working into the recoil to desensitize myself, I still think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle, it is too much. I want to think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle exactly the same as I would shooting my deer rifle or one of my 22's, which is to say, not at all.

that's how I see it, too. A rifle is a tool and a hunter needs to get beyond thinking about recoil for it to be a tool, to be used carefully before that first shot at a dangerous game animal that sets the game in play.

quote:

And then you get to rifle weight, you seem to prefer them light for cartridge, I'll just note that excessive rifle weight will hurt your elephant hunting. And note that light weight rifles can be great, but there is a minimum weight limit for every cartridge for everyone.

Yes, again. I had originally aimed for a 9-lb scoped rifle and maybe 7000 ftlbs. Well, I cracked the stock on that rifle and banged up my trigger finger on the pistol grip of a Ruger Hogue stock, so I'm learning to change my ways.

quote:

Also Tanzan, I just don't agree with or understand your fascination with velocity rather than bullet weight and/or frontal area. A 500NE for example, shoots a 570gr bullet at 2150fps 5850lbs' of energy, about 5600lbs' in the field with hunting rifle length barrels. Perfect!

I would agree. To be honest, there isn't much difference in recoil between 5800 and 6800ftlbs. They both rock you and startle the ears with noise.
Why velocity? Because I've always liked carrying a multi-purpose rifle in the forest. I want to reach out for the potential 250-300 yard animal (non-dangerous, e.g. hartebeest).
However, as for barrels and loads, I don't follow SAAMI on things like the Rigby or Gibbs. They are capable of much, much more than the anemic factory specs. Safely. Very safely. I've never even taken our Rigbys up to wherever the primers will flatten. 2825fps with 350 grains in a monolithic bullet is plenty. My 500 AccRel Nyati has a 22" barrel. It will go over 7000 ftlbs. But I'm thinking of using a CEB 386grin Raptor at 2600 as an 'all-around bullet' and also a 450 grain GSC HV as an all-around bullet. Both of them have exceptional guaranteed penetration and can be used on anything, 'cepting ele and hippo, where I would prefer only solids (but I don't hunt them).

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

mo, if, after working into the recoil to desensitize myself, I still think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle, it is too much. I want to think about the recoil prior to shooting the rifle exactly the same as I would shooting my deer rifle or one of my 22's, which is to say, not at all.

that's how I see it, too. A rifle is a tool and a hunter needs to get beyond thinking about recoil for it to be a tool, to be used carefully before that first shot at a dangerous game animal that sets the game in play.

quote:

And then you get to rifle weight, you seem to prefer them light for cartridge, I'll just note that excessive rifle weight will hurt your elephant hunting. And note that light weight rifles can be great, but there is a minimum weight limit for every cartridge for everyone.

Yes, again. I had originally aimed for a 9-lb scoped rifle and maybe 7000 ftlbs. Well, I cracked the stock on that rifle and banged up my trigger finger on the pistol grip of a Ruger Hogue stock, so I'm learning to change my ways.

quote:

Also Tanzan, I just don't agree with or understand your fascination with velocity rather than bullet weight and/or frontal area. A 500NE for example, shoots a 570gr bullet at 2150fps 5850lbs' of energy, about 5600lbs' in the field with hunting rifle length barrels. Perfect!

I would agree. To be honest, there isn't much difference in recoil between 5800 and 6800ftlbs. They both rock you and startle the ears with noise.
Why velocity? Because I've always liked carrying a multi-purpose rifle in the forest. I want to reach out for the potential 250-300 yard animal (non-dangerous, e.g. hartebeest).
However, as for barrels and loads, I don't follow SAAMI on things like the Rigby or Gibbs. They are capable of much, much more than the anemic factory specs. Safely. Very safely. I've never even taken our Rigbys up to wherever the primers will flatten. 2825fps with 350 grains in a monolithic bullet is plenty. My 500 AccRel Nyati has a 22" barrel. It will go over 7000 ftlbs. But I'm thinking of using a CEB 386grin Raptor at 2600 as an 'all-around bullet' and also a 450 grain GSC HV as an all-around bullet. Both of them have exceptional guaranteed penetration and can be used on anything, 'cepting ele and hippo, where I would prefer only solids (but I don't hunt them).

When you take elephant (and hippo out of the water) off of the table then an "all 'rounder" makes more sense.

An elephant hunt is pretty much all consuming, time and effort wise, at least for me. It is a rare thing to consider taking a target of opportunity when you are on elephant tracks, the logistics just don't favor it. The time diverted from catching the elephant would lead to many a LONG walk where, by the time you got to where the eles laid up for the mid day, they had already left for their afternoon feed and walk to water.

Since an elephant, even at a leisurely pace, out paces a man, and often far outpaces the ability of a tracker to stay on the right tracks, if you arrive where they laid up for the mid day and they have moved on you are unlikely as hell to catch them before dark. You can resume tracking at first light, but the tracks are then 12hrs old, and in my experience, it is increasingly difficult and increasingly unlikely you will catch the elephant, though it does happen. [Now that I am 52, I see it happening less often in the future!]

The complete focus allows for a more specialized rifle. A scope on an elephant rifle can kill you, so at most your elephant rifle will have a QD scope that is off while you are on tracks. Or eyesight may require a 0 magnification red dot type sight mounted well forward to prevent loss of perspective rather than reliance on express sights. Neither the express sights or the 0 magnification red dot type is conducive to longer range shooting. About 100yds is tops for me.

FWIW, I have killed a buff while on elephant tracks, but he was pissed and dangerous and wasn't going to move on or get out of the way so we could continue on the elephant tracks. And he was a pretty nice bull and near a road, so I killed him. We found he had maggots in his scrotum the result of a wound from another buff bull which had hooked him between his hind legs - no wonder he was pissed! Since he was near a road we had the No 2 tracker wait at the road as we continued on the elephant tracks, and had a crew from camp come and handle recovery with the No 2 tracker.

On the way back to the road from an all day long exploratory walk along the Zambezi Escarpment, beyond the last road, I once killed a really nice klipspringer as well, but only because the tracker could wrap him up in his overalls and carry him out.

That is the limit of animals of opportunity I've killed while elephant hunting. And for perspective, I have spent about three months total on elephant tracks. Two targets of opportunity taken in 90 days, not much diversion from the mission.

When it comes to elephants, penetration is, imo, a two act play, as I am sure you noted in the "Criterion" thread. Imo, you don't need or want too much for the first act, the first shot, instead you want bullet weight and you want all available energy transferred within the elephant's skull, or close if penetration will exceed skull depth or width. But for the second act, or shot, you may need all of the penetration you can get. The requirements for the second shot may be modest, an insurance shot on a brained or unconscious elephant. However, they may be extreme, broadside if you are quick enough, maybe quartering way or even dead astern if the first shot isn't a successful brain shot.

An elephant heading away at an angle which doesn't offer a 3/4 quartering away shot to the heart or to the brain can be stopped with a couple of possible shots. One option is to the ball joint of either hip, another is to the spine above the tail. These are small targets which require relatively heavy bullets with good energy, and the ele is probably hauling a--. But, depending on angle and elevation, these shots offer, in addition to their primary targets, with excellent penetration only, the possibility of kidneys, liver, the major arteries running to the legs and even lungs and heart or high heart/aorta.

At this point, with a potentially escaping elephant, you want to deliver as much damage as possible to slow him down. And, imo, that is where slightly lighter than standard for the cartridge flat nose solids come into their own.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... But I'm thinking of using a CEB 386grin Raptor at 2600 as an 'all-around bullet' and also a 450 grain GSC HV as an all-around bullet. Both of them have exceptional guaranteed penetration and can be used on anything, 'cepting ele and hippo, where I would prefer only solids (but I don't hunt them).

I have my 375 H&H as the all around gun, as a matter of fact just received my permit for Wyoming Elk where I will be using 250gr Barnes TTSX for that hunt at 300+ yards (typical for the area I am hunting).

This gun will have iron sights, and will be used for DG (not cats) at much shorter ranges.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... But I'm thinking of using a CEB 386grin Raptor at 2600 as an 'all-around bullet' and also a 450 grain GSC HV as an all-around bullet. Both of them have exceptional guaranteed penetration and can be used on anything, 'cepting ele and hippo, where I would prefer only solids (but I don't hunt them).

I have my 375 H&H as the all around gun, as a matter of fact just received my permit for Wyoming Elk where I will be using 250gr Barnes TTSX for that hunt at 300+ yards (typical for the area I am hunting).

This gun will have iron sights, and will be used for DG (not cats) at much shorter ranges.

As I mentioned, I think a 375H&H makes a great all 'rounder, and so does most of the rest of the world!

You ought to put iron sights on the 375H&H if it doesn't already have them, so the rifle can be a viable back up to your primary elephant rifle, imo.

Also, either load your own 300gr softs and solids or use Federal's 300gr softs and solids. Might even want to look at Woodleigh 350gr softs and solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... But I'm thinking of using a CEB 386grin Raptor at 2600 as an 'all-around bullet' and also a 450 grain GSC HV as an all-around bullet. Both of them have exceptional guaranteed penetration and can be used on anything, 'cepting ele and hippo, where I would prefer only solids (but I don't hunt them).

I have my 375 H&H as the all around gun, as a matter of fact just received my permit for Wyoming Elk where I will be using 250gr Barnes TTSX for that hunt at 300+ yards (typical for the area I am hunting).

This gun will have iron sights, and will be used for DG (not cats) at much shorter ranges.

loaded for elk!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
...
As I mentioned, I think a 375H&H makes a great all 'rounder, and so does most of the rest of the world!

You ought to put iron sights on the 375H&H if it doesn't already have them, so the rifle can be a viable back up to your primary elephant rifle, imo.

Also, either load your own 300gr softs and solids or use Federal's 300gr softs and solids. Might even want to look at Woodleigh 350gr softs and solids.

JPK

I'll be loading the Barnes 300gr softs and solids on the 375 for Africa. As far as the iron sights go, I discussed it with McMillan, however the geometry of the stock changes based on whether it is iron or tele sights, and the compromise where it would work for both is not that optimal. So, for the 375 H&H I decided to go with optics only. If worse comes to worse, I'd have to make do. The Swarowski scope is 1.7X on the low end and I would have to make it work.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
History favors the larger bullet at more modest velocity. I would argue that the benchmark really emphasizes bullet weight and diameter over velocity and/or energy. JPK

Now you are talking of John Taylor's "Knock Out" value, bullet weight x velocity x bullet diameter, or in other words bullet momentum and frontal area. Most of the big bores in his day and even today perform well with a MV of around the 2100-2200fps so as you are emphasizing here, it just comes down to weight and diameter?

No. As I wrote, history reflect a need for all three elements of performance, velocity, bullet weight and frontal area. One without the others didn't have a good history, two without the others didn't have a good history, but when all three were present near the nominal minimums - 480grs, 2150fps, .458" diameter, -history reflects a reasonably reliable record of deterring elephant attacks, even when the brain is missed closely.

Remember, a big bore was defined as a rifle of .458" bore or larger, and, as you note, they had a good track record with the standard English bullet weights, 480grs - 520grs for the 450's - 476, 570gr for the 500, 750grs for the 577, etc. - at 2100-2200fps.

JPK

Uh, I thought I was agreeing with you, You state or argue that "the benchmark really emphasizes bullet weight and diameter over velocity ...." Now suddenly you seem to be saying all three are needed?
Taylors KO value did use all three and as you point out the velocity only needs to be "modest".

Remember Taylor promoted a KO value of at least 50 as a starting point to be effective on dangerous game but of course the higher the value, read greater bullet weight and diameter as velocity stayed modest for most of the large calibres, the better.

Respectfully, read what you did write, why the NO to my reply, I'm puzzled.

No = I wasn't referring to Taylor's tables, not that I don't generally agree with his thinking and apparently yours too.

In particular, I was referring to the mixed history of the 416 Rigby as a stopper compared to the 450NE, which actually has less energy.

BTW, I hate referring to Taylor's tables. First, they had many errors where he used land diameter rather than groove diameter, or vice versa. Second, it is so miss used it is almost a joke. It was his attempt to comparatively rate different cartridges only on elephant and only with attempted brain shots, and Taylor's intended linitations seem lost on many. Third, imo, his formula fails to provide a numeric spread indicative of the actual spread in effectiveness.

For example, it appears that stopping or stumbling or knocking down or out with a closely missed brain shot is a pretty common occurrence with a 450NE class cartridge, almost certain with a 500NE class cartridge. The respective KO numbers are 67 and 89. On the other hand, the 375H&H is not known for its ability to reliably knock down or out, stumble or stop and elephant, but it's KO value is 39.

39 = 51% of 67
67 = 75% of 89
39 = 44% of 89

A 375H&H is NOT 44% as effective as a 500NE in stopping, stumbling, knocking down or knocking out an elephant. Nor is it 51% as effective as the 450NE.

JPK

My favorite elephant rifles.......

This is the 458 B&M I used last year 8.5 lbs with scope, 7.5 without, 38 inches overall, 18 inch barrel. 450 #13 Solids at 2220 in this gun, passes completely through elephant broadside of course..... A 19 or 20 inch gun drives 2250-2275 fps...... 18 is very handy........




This one is a 500 MDM at the time I used it in 2011 for elephant it had a very long 21 inch barrel and weighed in heavy at 8.5 lbs, mostly due to the english AI stock. Still sporty at that time running 500 gr #13 Solids at 2400 fps. It now sports a 19 inch barrel...... Recently working with a 525 gr #13 Solid at 2320 fps, and 450 North Fork Solids at 2550 fps, it will get the job done.........




While not this particular rifle, I used a 50 B&M in 2007 for a couple of night time elephants. .500 caliber, at that time shooting a 510 gr Copper Lehigh at 2100 fps, today I would run the 500 #13 at 2120, new 475 #13 at 2200, or a 450 North Fork at 2300 fps. Again, 18 inches of barrel, 38 inches overall, this stock is heavy with the rifle coming in at 8 lbs........



This was my rifle at one time, however it is now in the hands of my pal Brent Ebling... 19 inch 500 MDM. Brent used it last year to "STOP" a charging elephant, around 8-10 yards, down and done........His 500 gr #13 penetrated the skull completely, passing through frontal, and that bullet ended up in the hip. Classic knock down but missed the brain. Ele was down immediately at the shot, was not able to get back on its feet. A finishing shot, and a couple of insurance shots finished the excitement.




Michael

Michael,
Your B&M's look great. Could you give some idea of the recoil of the 458 B&M and 50 B&M? I could not find any information on your site or on the threads here.

quote:

Originally posted by Edod:
Michael,
Your B&M's look great. Could you give some idea of the recoil of the 458 B&M and 50 B&M? I could not find any information on your site or on the threads here.

Very manageable, I find the 458 B&M much easier to shoot than a heavier longer 458 Winchester everything being the same..... 50 B&M about like a heavy load in 458 Lott, 500 MDM something a bit more than a lott....... Stock design, straight inline with the bore makes a huge difference in muzzle flip, not much of that at all in any of them........ Maybe some of the other B&M guys can chime in on this and might have a better feel for it........

M

There is a nice testimonial video that shows this clearly:

http://www.accurateinnovations...Videos/thebiggun.mp4

The link may be a little slow to load but is worth watching.

"Can I have one of these?"

Yup

The power and recoil is between a 'his' and a 'hers' in the picture on the first page of the thread. The cartridge is shorter than both the 500 AR-Nyati and 375Ruger.

Tanz

Actually I don't think that is a good testimonial.... Reason being, none of the AI guys or gals have ever shot any big bore rifles...... So they are not really used to it at all......

M

Michael, nice looking rifles. I'm impressed with the stocks you have done at AI. Let me know when you may get tired of one :-)

Well, the video has my wife, all 110 lbs not any more than those young daughters, looking forward to shooting her 375 this June.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Michael, nice looking rifles. I'm impressed with the stocks you have done at AI. Let me know when you may get tired of one :-)

No way... for YOU.. Signed contract that you have to at least take possession of the rifle before selling it, maybe even have to keep it for a full 30 days or something...., and then only sell it back to me at 10% less for re-stocking fee! HEH HEH.......... That is the only way that YOU can have one! Other folks, different story.....

I must agree with Michael regarding the AI video of shooting the 458B&M. It's cute but a bit too much exaggeration and too little experience shooting big bore rifles, as it relates to the recoil of the 458B&M round.

Personally, I have been shooting large bore DG rifles for over 20 years and have owned at least 7, including my 500NE DR. I have two hunting partners who also own 458B&M rifles. None of us feel the cartridge/rifles to be excessive in the area of recoil, while they are a true pleasure to carry and maneuver in the bush.

I readily admit to being a real fan of the B&M cartridge-rifle combination, especially in the 458B&M caliber, which I consider capable of performing as an all-round african one gun safari rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Edod:
Michael,
Your B&M's look great. Could you give some idea of the recoil of the 458 B&M and 50 B&M? I could not find any information on your site or on the threads here.

Very manageable, I find the 458 B&M much easier to shoot than a heavier longer 458 Winchester everything being the same..... 50 B&M about like a heavy load in 458 Lott, 500 MDM something a bit more than a lott....... Stock design, straight inline with the bore makes a huge difference in muzzle flip, not much of that at all in any of them........ Maybe some of the other B&M guys can chime in on this and might have a better feel for it........

M

I don't own a B&M rifle - yet - but I have shot more than 20 rounds each in:
416 B&M (AI walnut stock)
458 B&M (factory lightweight synthetic stock)
458 B&M (AI walnut stock)
50 B&M SS (factory lightweight synthetic stock)
50 B&M (AI walnut stock)

Rifles were fired summer of 2010 in two groupings:
416 B&M and 50 B&M SS - early summer
458 B&M and 50 B&M - late summer

I hadn't shot a rifle in a few years, work and family obligations, and the largest caliber I'd previously fired was the 350 RemMag from my little M600 Remington. I did get a nice shoulder bruise with the 416 and 50 SS shooting Michael's African hunting loads with me in a tee shirt. For the second shoot I took my Velcro secured slip-on 1" recoil pad along to add some LOP to the rifle stocks. :-).

First Shoot:
My buddy had his 375 Ruger Alaskan along for the first shoot.

I didn't find the 416 B&M to recoil any worse than the 375 Ruger and the 416 B&M was very accurate out to 325yds even though fitted with only a 1-4x variable scope. Full weight of the rifle with scope was right at 7.75 lbs sans ammunition.

The little 50 B&M SS - all 6 lbs sans ammunition! ok perhaps 6 1/4 lbs (can't remember exactly - was fun to shoot though it did have a 'very sharpe/quick' recoil impulse. I didn't fire it past 100 yds but it was very accurate from 25 yds out to 100 yds with iron sights. It would be an excellent back packing personal safely rifle for bear protection or for bear hunting.

Second Shoot:
We had a very nice pre-64 M70 in .375 H&H with variable scope (I think about 8 3/4 lbs San ammunition), a single shot 450 NE, and a nice 12 gauge Paradox in addition to the 458 and 50 B&Ms to shoot.

The two 458's weren't punishing in their recoil. Both exhibited a much sharper recoil impulse than the 450 NE single shot - but they were also 2-3 lbs lighter in weight sans ammunition. Both 458 B&M were delivered with iron sights only but were very accurate out to 200 yards, the maximum we shot that day. I did limit my shooting of the two 458s solely for a single reason - that being both stocks had a somewhat sharpe edged thin comb which dug into my cheekbone on recoil.

So I moved on to the 50 B&M which while the comb was thinner than I'd prefer was nicely rounded and it didn't dig into my cheekbone on recoil! I basically stood in line for the remainder of the shooting day to shoot the 50 B&M when it became available. I truly enjoyed shooting all 7 1/2 lbs of the AI stocked 50 B&M! It was very accurate shooting 500gr bullets from 25 yards out to 200 yards with iron sights. I was able to keep multiple full loadings, 3-down and a 4th in the tube, in less than an 8" circle at 200 yards using iron sights; 6 out of 8 rounds in <6" in a single reloading cycle (1st shoot was a sighting round).

I had nothing but the two 458 B&M rifles and the single shot 450 NE to compare to the 50 B&M recoil wise and the 450 NE again was 2-3 lbs heavier in weight (I believe it weighed about 10 lbs with iron sights).

So two 458s to the single 50. Yes the recoil impulse was 'heavier' with the 50 than either 458 but no sharper. The 50 easily won with it's nicely rounded comb vs sharpe combed 458s. And yes I used my 1" Velcro secured slip-on pad for all rifles shot that day having less than 14" LOPs...

My Summation:
I truly loved the 416 B&M and the 50 B&M, if they'd been stocked with a longer LOP I might be the proud owner of them them right now rather than Michael. Yes I could have used a nice leather covered Velcro slip-on pad with each to get a correct LOP but the 416 had already slipped through my hands!

Ok... The recoil is not punishing from a compact B&M rifle as long as the stock doesn't have a sharp edged thin comb, but that applies to all rifles especially all BB rifles not just B&M chambered rifles.

One truly needs to shot their heavy long barreled BB rifle in the same shooting session with a few of Michael's light weight short barreled rifles to truly appreciate what the compact BB rifle brings to the hunt.