Well duh!!! the 458 385gr at 2000 fps is obviously the better one!

Gee, it seems simple to me

BTW my 24" 12ga only gets Federal Barnes slugs up to slightly over 1500 fps. I thought a 30" barrel they used to get the 1900 fps claimed on the box wouldn't be all that handy.

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
LMAO .. i am still giggling at comparing a .458 385 at 2000fps to a .458 385 at 2000 fps .. and calling it "better" ??!??!?!

LMAO -- thanks, AD, I appreciate the reality check

Giggle all you like because I'm still thinking you were on a senile rant about Sectional density THINKING we were talking about 12 ga DIAMETER 385grain projectiles.

Right now in this discussion you've been acting like something I KNOW you aren't... a teenage know-it-all, so what gives? Someone slip you some meth in your espresso?


GRANTED most 12ga shotguns won't drive those sabot slugs to the quoted 2000fps, my 26" hastings barrel comes real close... >1930fps

I can't do that with 350's in my Marlin....

And I further qualified (and you ignored) that there is an admited accuracy difference
but at some ranges and for some purposs the more rapid rate of fire makes the accuracy part of the equasion less relevant.

IF for example I had to face an annoyed bear?
the bear starting from 40 yards is going to only get two shots possibly a third from the 45/70 lever gun.

Not because I can't cycle the action that fast, but because in addition to cycling the action I need to get the muzzle back down and back on target.

With th 12ga that happens automatically, simply yanking on the slide does most of that...

I KNOW That I can get FIVE aimed shots off from a pump gun in abut the same time I can
get those two or three out of the marlin, not only because it's a faster action but working the action actually aids recoil recovery.

That's if I HAVE 40yards, in bear country 14yards is more likely in which case the first shot from the marlin will probaly be wasted
and a second shot an impossibility.


NO animal on earth can move 15yards faster than I can cycle a 12ga slide to fire a second shot

With a 12ga 870 in my hands it's gonna have two distracting holes in it, because my doing so is less about thought and more about trained reflex

Lifetime I've gone through tens of thousands of 12ga cycles.

Shit in 1984 alone I went through just over
20,000 shotshells... Atleast a case of 500 every week for 40 weeks and that doesn't adress 1985, '86, '87, '88 (are you getting it yet?)

I'm more likely to forget how to breathe or than I am to forget how to work a remington 870.

Remember under stress we follow our training
I'm more than "Comfortable" with a 12ga.

at longer ranges I'd personally prefer a 45/70
on that we agree, I'm just saying that YOUR "over the top" atitude about your POSITION is not warranted by the facts
or purposes of this discussion....

Basically you seem WAY too invested in telling people off.

You don't want a rifled shotgun? Fine that's your choice. but making everyone agree with you?

Ain't gonna happen not with the major attitude you are diplaying here....

Discuss, don't berate.

So in asnwer to the original question it depends on the specific circumstances.

AD

I don’t think slugs are anywhere near the perfect setup for anything. Shotgun slugs are a “patch” or a way to make a shotgun more versatile. Putting some slugs in your pocket is a much easier way to have a large game gun with you while bird hunting as opposed to slinging a big bore over your other shoulder IMHO. A 45-70 makes a really lousy bird gun. The very impressive improvement in slugs over the last 30 years is for the same reason as the equally impressive improvement in muzzleloaders… weapon restricted deer hunting zones. Having a slug gun that can hit a deer at 100 – 150 yards is a very welcome improvement over the old days when even 50 yards may have been an iffy shot. The shotguns that can do it are not really shotguns anymore though; a fully rifled, scoped shotgun also makes for a lousy bird gun. The fact that this discussion is comparing these guns to a 45-70 as opposed to a 270 shows just how much of a struggle it is to make a bird gun into a deer gun.

If the “no rifle” zones went away the market for slugs would shrink but not disappear. A box of Sluggers is still by far the cheapest way to get a big hammer for close in work if one already owns a shotgun. The fully rifled shotgun setups would have a more dramatic loss to the lever actions… but chambered in 30-30, not 45-70!

i have only combination guns at home once hade a 30-30/12 gauge and now i have german made combo 20 gauge/222 remington.it throws 1+ ounce of shot and rifle barrel is a real tack driver !!it covers for the most part of my huntings.
i always carry a box of brenneke slugs if i meet a hungry bear in the wood . if i will go for bears or moose i 'll use my ruger 77 in 3006 or my husky 6,5x55.
the combos are best of the two world LOL
Yes

any of you gentlemen ever use any of the Buffalo bore ammo in your 45-70? I believe my Marlin will shoot 420-430 gr bulets at +1900 FPS. Their 350 gr offering is @ +2100 FPS.
Grizzly ammo also offers +P 45-70 loadings. They suggest only Marlin, 1885 Win and Ruger #1 as platforms at this pressure.
I think their 500 gr offering is at 1600 FPS.

Allan,
I do apologise if you took my discussion and tone towards yes as insulting towards yourself.

Upon rereading my posts, and if you hadn't seen me answer similar posts that ALWAYS wind up in SD discussion (why is a 300gr .458 any worse than a 300 gr.375, for example), then it is easy for me to have not been clear, or seemed fair.

Thank you for pointing that out.

The original question was comparing BORE not balastics, which is probably where we got sideways .. one has to admit that a 385gr .720 fits perfectly into my answer. I overlooked that you mean ONLY the sabots.

In my defense, I kept trying to answer the man's question.

I do ask, however, that you also review your posts on the matter, and try to compare them to mine. Perhaps mine are a bit sarcastic (that DOES happen), however, directly insulting and beratting I do try to avoid.

Perhaps you could send me a PM and help me to understand better how you felt that I was berating, as I would like to improve.. seriously.

wait a minute
you meant you wanted to insult me and not Alan
what a dirty and rude moderator. it seems it is allowed to insult me
no way to hide your lack of knowledge . how many 12 gauge . 72 bore are made in 385 grain wait???? I AM REALLY PISSED OFF?

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
how many 12 gauge . 72 bore are made in 385 grain wait????

its just about 7/8oz, aint it?
(383.8gr vs 385)

his name is Allan, not Alan ... i know english isn't your first language, but that's just a cut and paste.

and you put those a 385 grain 12 gauge slug inside a sabot and because english is not my first langguage then it is ok to be insulted

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
and you put those a 385 grain 12 gauge slug inside a sabot and because english is not my first langguage then it is ok to be insulted

NO, *I* didn't .. i answreed your ''larger bore" question ... *I* didn't offer sabots AT ALL

alan not, allan...

i beg allan for pardon if i wrote his name wrong. it happens when we are in hurry. by the way the SD is only one of many factors in bullets flight and penetration too. bullet with lower SD can outpreform the others with higher SD if they are made of harder and tougher alloy and they can have better flight depending to aerodynamical shape.Sd is not all. a 0.720 slug can make a real large wound which could kill more rapidly if it hit the right place.

Personally, I feel that nose profile is still the most important factor in penetration......

quote:

Personally, I feel that nose profile is still the most important factor in penetration......

Whitworth

You are 100% correct---Nose Profile far over rides SD. I have proven that time after time after time. Both in the lab and in the field. Nose profile far exceeds the importance of SD.

Michael

Allan...There were large frame colt lightnings in 45-70 pump action. They aint cheap but they are around. I wish someone will reproduce them soon. They are cooooooooool.

Maybe if anything comes from this thread it is getting one of the reproduction companies like Cimarron to remake the colt lightning in 45-70. Then people will probably rebarrel them to do 50 alaskan ect.

Here in this link is an example of a large frame Colt Lightning but not chambered in 45-70

Anyone with a CNC want to reproduce these

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100074290

Jeffeosso,

You've "decaffinated" sufficiently, ya just needed to relax, if a question gets answered over an over either ignore it or have a "prefab" answer you can cut and paste into a reply window.

I'm a Tech advisor on an offroad truck forum and frankly I can't imagine all that much in a TECH discussion that's worth getting "worked up" over EXCEPT blatant MIS-information and even then I ask a loaded question before putting a shot actross someone's bow.

As has been said many, many times on these forums
100-200fps one way or the other is just not that important...

Frankly for SELF DEFENSE I'd rather have a 12ga pump.

That being said I bought the 45/70 AFTER I already owned the 12ga, frankly I have three times the money invested into that 870 as I do in my 45-70, yet if I THINK I may get a shot past 75yards you'll find the marlin in my hands.

That mainly because of how each firearm is sighted, Aimpoint 2000 scout mounted on the Remington 870
Weaver K4 on the Marlin.

I'll maintain 'til my dying breath, ain't NOTHING for fast target aquisition like an aimpoint

So I'm comming pretty much from where you are so what NEEDS to be defined is what the OP means by "hunting", what ranges, what critters,and what other dangerous critters might be around...

quote:

Originally posted by yes:

quote:

Personally, I feel that nose profile is still the most important factor in penetration......

I was actually serious......

Allan,
perhaps I wasn't clear. I appogised for any perception of my tone to you, I did not withdrawl my point. Please don't mistake polietness for capitulation.

Aint nothing better than a aimpoint other than a Green laser for fast shooting! In daylight they are way way faster out to 50yrds! After that I want a holosight to 100yrds. After that a good scope.-Rob