Hi
a 12 gauge shotgun can put up to 1,5+ ounce of lead shots at a moving target and 1 ounce + of slug at the same velocity of 45-70 pushing 400 grain bullet with much larger diameter .isen't a 12 gauge better choice than a 45-70 for any kind of hunting?
regards
Yes

No- Most 12Ga rifled shotguns are pretty inaccurate after 150yrds. A 45-70 has way more range.-Rob

sectional density and penetration will be an issue. Also, a foster type slug is very soft and penetrates very poorly. So, slug type will also be an issue. I think in most cases the 45/70 will penetrate better with a good bullet. But honestly, I would say they preform equally on thin skinned game.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi
a 12 gauge shotgun can put up to 1,5+ ounce of lead shots at a moving target and 1 ounce + of slug at the same velocity of 45-70 pushing 400 grain bullet with much larger diameter .isen't a 12 gauge better choice than a 45-70 for any kind of hunting?
regards
Yes

NO -- and balderdash.
1oz is 437.5 grains. a 405 is pretty darn close to an oz.

1800fps is EASY with a 405 and a marlin
1800FPS requires an underweight 12ga (7/8 oz)

a 12ga diamter means it has LESS sd, and less BC .. the 458 bullet will have a higher SD and a higher bc.

the question is flawed and has incorrect assumptions.

a .720 would have to weigh closer to TWO oz to have the same SD, couldn't come out more than 1000fps .. making it a slingshot trajectory.

In its realm, the 12 ga is awesome on impact. It doesn't BEGIN to compare with a good 45..

well well
when it comes to penetration.if you handload or use hv sabot slugs in a 12 g rifled barrel. i am sure 45-70 would have a very hard time specially if 12 g is loaded with dixie heavy hardend slugs or brenneke 3 inch with 600 grain slugs . as for long range accuracy a 45-70 with hevy bullet and low velocity will give a real head ache as a trajectory

The 45-70 300 gr @ 1850 is the factory load. IIRC Win sabot 12 ga is 325 @ 1900 .Very close .Someone on this forum mentioned he got close ot 1" groups with a rifled Browning.
But I have a Browning 1885 not a rifled shotgun so the 45-70 wins !!

I too was going to suggest looking at Dixie Slugs for some of their offerings for shotguns.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
well well
when it comes to penetration.if you handload or use hv sabot slugs in a 12 g rifled barrel. i am sure 45-70 would have a very hard time specially if 12 g is loaded with dixie heavy hardend slugs or brenneke 3 inch with 600 grain slugs . as for long range accuracy a 45-70 with hevy bullet and low velocity will give a real head ache as a trajectory

"well well well" my EYE .. if you HANDLAND, then the 45.70 CAN beat the 12 ga, hands down. PERIOD, full stop..


you aren't listening .. you have your mind madeup, and facts won't help you.

mete, can't comapre "factory" exceptions .. 350gr 12 ga sd is 0.096 .. 0.096, LESS than .1
300gr .458 is .204
405 gr .458 .276
600gr 12ga .165

300gr bullet at 1800 has WAY better velocity than a 600gr at 1200 ... better SD, and better construction.

a normal 12ga slug is b5-7 .. lead to just enough lead to pour nice .. it will SPLATTER

(sigh) - if your minds made up, great .. if you want to listen, then listen.

what i wonder is why i ever took "yes" off my ignore list

Jeff, you need to look at Dixie Slugs. I saw some penetration testing done with them and am quite impressed. Take a look......

Sure Marco, I imagine there's lots of loading that can make a specific bullet perform far better than its peers. HOWEVER, a 600gr 12ga, all else being equal, can't begin to compare with a barnes TSX 45/70 bullet, also hand loaded.

yes' question was "isnt the 12 ga (a) better choice than a 45-70 for ANY kind of hunting?"

not "can it be better"

His STATEMENT is the 12ga is better for all hunting than the 45/70 .. and unless its loaded with shot, the answer is NO -- no, wait, second exception -- if you are in a shotgun only state (which inherently states its performance is less than a rifle) then the 12ga IS better ...

but, unless artificaly constrained, NO, a rifled 12ga is NOT better than a 45/70 .. extrapolated ..

a .720 at low sd, BC, and velocity is NEVER a better hunting RIFLE (excluding shot) than a .458 higher SD, higher BC, higher velocity round

look, "yes' states that SOMEHOW a hot loaded 12ga might have better trajectory than an LOW ENERGY 45/70 .. comparing cutting edge 12ga to trapdoor loads isn't apples to apples.

Jeff, stop being so damn dogmatic! We're talking voodoo magic here!

Shotgun any gauge is a worthless POS! Can't find a use for one myself!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Jeff, stop being so damn dogmatic! We're talking voodoo magic here!

dem hard cast boollits ....

LOL ... no, seriously, the question aint "which is a better bird gun" ... which, of course the proper answer is, 22LR

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Shotgun any gauge is a worthless POS! Can't find a use for one myself!

Michael

god reserved the sound of the mossberg 500 for clenching a sphincter!

god reserved the sound of the mossberg 500 for clenching a sphincter![/QUOTE]

That can be replaced by the sound of several 3 round bursts from an MP5! Ain't looking to give no warnings!

Michael

What if said 12 ga is loaded with Lightfield Commanders? That is a 600gr slug at 1800fps (3" chamber). That might tip the scales a bit in the shotgun's favor.

Why is this silly topic on the Big Bore Forum? As NEiITHER are true big bore Rifles!

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
The 45-70 300 gr @ 1850 is the factory load. IIRC Win sabot 12 ga is 325 @ 1900 .Very close .Someone on this forum mentioned he got close ot 1" groups with a rifled Browning.
But I have a Browning 1885 not a rifled shotgun so the 45-70 wins !!

Winchester Actually advertises 2000fps
for the 385gr Partition Gold Sabot slug
in the 3" 12ga Magnum.

That load gives little if anything up to any of even the hottest 45/70 loads (that can be fired in a repeating rifle).

But one advantage of a 12ga is that in a pump
you can get five or six shots (magazine capacity permitting) off considerable faster than anyone not firing blanks can do it in a marlin 1895 (I've owned a marlin 1895 for 25 years, so...)

I'd be willing to bet that I can fire six rounds from my Mossberg in less time than just about anyone can fire a marlin three times

And five rounds from my rifled remington
in about the same time (six ain't happening due to mag capacity)

If you have a 12ga autoloader that absorbs recoil, like most gas auto's do... faster is possible...

For "hunting" where a range of ANY shot over 100yards is possible the rifled 12ga wouldn't be my choice.


I think personally for self-defense the nod goes to the 870 with winchester supremes.

For Bear country self defense?
I'd stand my ground with my hastings barreled aimpoint sighted 870 because I know I can hit anything bigger than a big gulp cup (even bouncing at me at 40mph) atleast three or four times from 75yards to contact range.

with a 12ga "Self defense" will get less arguement from authorities than packing an actual bear rifle like a 45-70 and it doesn't much matter that the 870 hits just as hard...
and hits more often.

But for an intentional shot at longer range?

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
That load gives little if anything up to any of even the hottest 45/70 loads (that can be fired in a repeating rifle).


AD

well.. NO
if you like to compare a 385gr 12ga to a .458 bullet...

385 gr 12ga has an sd of .106
385 gr .458 has an sd of .262

so, if you want to compare, AT THE SAME VELOCITY,
the 385gr 12ga would have to compare to a 155gr .458 bullet to have the same SD

no, REALLY, sd is really realy really simple, and to compare a 12ga to a .458, you are comparing a 385gr 12 to a 155gr .458

lets reverse it

.385gr .458 bullet has an sd of .262

wanna guess what bullet weight in a 12ga to be the same SD?

no, really.. GUESS...

double?

nearly 2.5 x..

950gr 12ga slug to be an SD of .262....

2 1/6 OZ.. think you can get that to 2000 FPS, without it being a 12ga from hell?

So, guys, it doesn't REALLY matter how many made up loads we want to trot out, the simple fact is.....
(we need a drumrol icon)
if you want to compare a .458 bullet to a 12 ga, HEAD TO HEAD, you have to have the same SD bullet, at the same speed ...

compare things EQUALLY or you are merely whistling in the dark

Jeff,

The sabot he is referring to is far smaller than 12 ga. It is I believe .45" but is definitely not larger than 0.5". So your SD argument is incorrect.

Very low sectional density for the shotgun slug along with soft slug construction. Take the 400 gr .458 caliber everytime.

the warmest 12 ga loads are in the 14,000Psi range, IIRC.

It's like comparing throwing a baseball to a medicine ball...get close.

Rich
4-bore shooter

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Shotgun any gauge is a worthless POS! Can't find a use for one myself!

Michael

Not much of a bird hunter, are you?

"That can be replaced by the sound of several 3 round bursts from an MP5! Ain't looking to give no warnings!"

Shoot first and ask questions later!

Gee- I guess all those 600 and 1000 yrd matches I shot with a 45-70 were all my imagination. Never saw anyone even bring a 12 ga. A whole lot of game have been taken at over 300 yrds with 45-70s . Sights were invented to deal with trajectory. Don't see many shotguns with vernier sights. BTW this is eactly why I invented the 12gafh. The real question is what can a .458 Lott do that a 12GaFH can't.-Rob

A proper 12 ga load with same type of bullets that a 45-70
shoots, put in a 12 ga sabot, will easily outdo 45-70
launched ones... Like the 500 gr bullet in a sabot at 2200
fps from regular barreled 12ga guns in 3.0" plastic cases, and
2500 fps in 3.5" plastic.cases.With heavy barreled guns
more yet. And for stoppers you can't beat 12ga with properly
speeded up, medium weight, hard bullets, with 45-70.Ed

gentlemen
i wanted just compare factory loaded 12 gauge and45-70 and in hunting situation. well if it comes to handloading all thing is different both of these calibers could be loaded at very higher preformance. please remember 12 gauge from the hell with bras shell s and heavy loads

right .. so, FACTORY loads, the 45/70 beats the 12ga slugguns ...

comparing to the 12gaFH.. no comparison

anyone one who wants to differ...well, lets have a 1000 yard shoot off ... at 10cents/yard per shot, must have FIVE shots on paper (6'x6', just to be fair) best score wins all? FACTORY loads only

no takers? (NO ROB, you can't bring the 12ga from hell)

Again, take a look at Dixie Slugs -- http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

They seem to work exceptionally well. No need to turn this into a pissing contest.

jefesso
are you going to use 45-70 for 1000 yards deer hunting? most hunting is done at less than 100 yards and very rarely more than 200+ yards. 45-70 is not a long range hunting round . it is surly good for plinking and target shooting at longer range, but when it comes to hunting smal games and deer or even self defens against bears i doubt it can compete with a 12 gauge at average hunting distance.
regards
yes

quote:

Not much of a bird hunter, are you?

Hi Slug! Nope, don't give a damn about birds! Been there done it however! One time a PH said to bring a shotgun for birds. I did and sure enough there were 1000s of them. I wasted a box or two while the damn things were flying around, then I figured out I could hit them easy when they landing in a tree next to me!!!!
That was several years ago and the last time I took a shotgun for anything!

Yes
Defense for bears? Maybe the smallish blacks, but when it comes to big brownies I would much rather have a suitable rifle! 45/70 will do with a proper load, but I much prefer something that will hit a little harder, while maintaining the same size rifle as say a short Marlin or M71. Or one of my small 50s is a better bet!
No shotguns for this sort of work thank you! Shotgun can't compete with a proper 500 gr .500 caliber bullet at 2000-2100 fps for this sort of mission! Fact, not fiction!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
jefesso
are you going to use 45-70 for 1000 yards deer hunting? most hunting is done at less than 100 yards and very rarely more than 200+ yards. 45-70 is not a long range hunting round . it is surly good for plinking and target shooting at longer range, but when it comes to hunting smal games and deer or even self defens against bears i doubt it can compete with a 12 gauge at average hunting distance.
regards
yes

NO, i didn't say HUNT did I? I said shooting at measured distance to compare the 2.

YOU asked for ALL hunting conditions ... the 45/70 is 99.9% of the time BETTER ... unless bird hunting.

You just don't get it, your mind is made up...

there aint no brown bears in texas, and if I were to be in brown/grizzly country, i would likely to have someone FAR more potent ...

I HUNT at hunting ranges, in my NOT so humble opinion, with is less than 200 yards, with a rest and scope ...

I asked if you wanted to put your money where your mouth is ... Whip out your slug gun and shoot at 300 yards MUCH LESS 1000

Marco - I get it, i get it .. you can jack up the 12ga .. and you CAN get garret yammerhead (intentional) loads. i DO like the 3x.60 balls.. that's WICKED ... I also like barnes .585 bullets, sabot and loaded to 1500 ... that would make an INTERESTING load, if your twist would stablize ...

but those aren't anything like "normal" loads ... and 750 at 1200 (might even get 1600 with rifle powder, as ed and Rob have shown) which makes it a wicked wicked thing ...

but, again, nothing like a "12ga vs 45/70" ... of course yes wants to compare 400gr lead springfield loads to the most modern 12ga loaded slugs .. which aint a comparison, it's mental masterbation

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
jefesso
are you going to use 45-70 for 1000 yards deer hunting? most hunting is done at less than 100 yards and very rarely more than 200+ yards. 45-70 is not a long range hunting round . it is surly good for plinking and target shooting at longer range, but when it comes to hunting smal games and deer or even self defens against bears i doubt it can compete with a 12 gauge at average hunting distance.
regards
yes

NO, i didn't say HUNT did I? I said shooting at measured distance to compare the 2.

YOU asked for ALL hunting conditions ... the 45/70 is 99.9% of the time BETTER ... unless bird hunting.

You just don't get it, your mind is made up...

there aint no brown bears in texas, and if I were to be in brown/grizzly country, i would likely to have someone FAR more potent ...

I HUNT at hunting ranges, in my NOT so humble opinion, with is less than 200 yards, with a rest and scope ...

I asked if you wanted to put your money where your mouth is ... Whip out your slug gun and shoot at 300 yards MUCH LESS 1000

Marco - I get it, i get it .. you can jack up the 12ga .. and you CAN get garret yammerhead (intentional) loads. i DO like the 3x.60 balls.. that's WICKED ... I also like barnes .585 bullets, sabot and loaded to 1500 ... that would make an INTERESTING load, if your twist would stablize ...

but those aren't anything like "normal" loads ... and 750 at 1200 (might even get 1600 with rifle powder, as ed and Rob have shown) which makes it a wicked wicked thing ...

but, again, nothing like a "12ga vs 45/70" ... of course yes wants to compare 400gr lead springfield loads to the most modern 12ga loaded slugs .. which aint a comparison, it's mental masterbation

Of course they aren't normal loads, just something to look at and an alternative to most commercial offerings -- oh, and damn effective.

ironically the alaskan governement tourist agency is recommanding a shotgun loaded with slug for bear protection i assume the bears over there are brown or grizzly maybe some blacks too. hunting in general is including birds , smal games and big games in resonable range and naturally i meant factory loaded rounds.when it comes to handloaded rounds the option is out of range of normal average hunter and in 45-70 depends to the strength of rifle used. i usually use more rifle than shotgun in hunting, but i am amazed of recent developments of new potent rifled slugs and sabot loads in shotguns.
regards
yes

Marco,
I think the .60s in a handful load would be wicked.. with some rifle powder behind it.. a blunderbuss!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Marco,
I think the .60s in a handful load would be wicked.. with some rifle powder behind it.. a blunderbuss!

You're probably right!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
That load gives little if anything up to any of even the hottest 45/70 loads (that can be fired in a repeating rifle).


AD

well.. NO
if you like to compare a 385gr 12ga to a .458 bullet...

385 gr 12ga has an sd of .106
385 gr .458 has an sd of .262

so, if you want to compare, AT THE SAME VELOCITY,
the 385gr 12ga would have to compare to a 155gr .458 bullet to have the same SD

no, REALLY, sd is really realy really simple, and to compare a 12ga to a .458, you are comparing a 385gr 12 to a 155gr .458

lets reverse it

.385gr .458 bullet has an sd of .262

wanna guess what bullet weight in a 12ga to be the same SD?

no, really.. GUESS...

double?

nearly 2.5 x..

950gr 12ga slug to be an SD of .262....

2 1/6 OZ.. think you can get that to 2000 FPS, without it being a 12ga from hell?

So, guys, it doesn't REALLY matter how many made up loads we want to trot out, the simple fact is.....
(we need a drumrol icon)
if you want to compare a .458 bullet to a 12 ga, HEAD TO HEAD, you have to have the same SD bullet, at the same speed ...

compare things EQUALLY or you are merely whistling in the dark

Hey Jeffosso are you TRYING to be STUPID?

It's called "obtuse", but add to that "dogmatic" "assinine" "Confabulatory"
and while I'm at it "jerk" and "Obnoxious"

Possibly "Pendantic"

in any case.... Decaffinate!

ALL of the modern loads for a 12ga shotgun that get these higher velocities are for SABOT loads.

Sub-caliber projectiles.

Thus they HAVE a similar SD to the 45/70 projectiles.

You can appologise at any time.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the warmest 12 ga loads are in the 14,000Psi range, IIRC.

It's like comparing throwing a baseball to a medicine ball...get close.

Rich
4-bore shooter

it's actually more like 16K PSI for the hot slug loads and that against a 73caliber sabot base?

Consider that it's Pressure times area.
and the 12bore has 2.54 times the area for
that lower pressure to work on...

The CORRECT 12bore sabot load beats most HANDLOADED 45/70 and ANY factory loaded ammo.

No it isn't accurate at longer hunting ranges, but at typical deer hunting ranges...

As I said, I own BOTH, each has it's advantages
but if I needed one or the other for self defense I'd go with the 12guage because at close range I can put a lot of metal on target FAST.

Partly because my pump reloads much faster than my 1895 Marlin, partly because my Rifled Remington has an aimpoint on it
while my 45-70 wears a Weaver K4.


AD

i FREAKING love it..

I guess *I* am the jerk, because i assumed ASSUMED we would discuss 12ga bullets vs .458 bullets ..

not .458 vs .458 at the same weight and speed ..

i guess i must "appologise " (har)

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
That load gives little if anything up to any of even the hottest 45/70 loads (that can be fired in a repeating rifle).


AD

well.. NO
if you like to compare a 385gr 12ga to a .458 bullet...

385 gr 12ga has an sd of .106
385 gr .458 has an sd of .262

so, if you want to compare, AT THE SAME VELOCITY,
the 385gr 12ga would have to compare to a 155gr .458 bullet to have the same SD

no, REALLY, sd is really realy really simple, and to compare a 12ga to a .458, you are comparing a 385gr 12 to a 155gr .458

lets reverse it

.385gr .458 bullet has an sd of .262

wanna guess what bullet weight in a 12ga to be the same SD?

no, really.. GUESS...

double?

nearly 2.5 x..

950gr 12ga slug to be an SD of .262....

2 1/6 OZ.. think you can get that to 2000 FPS, without it being a 12ga from hell?

So, guys, it doesn't REALLY matter how many made up loads we want to trot out, the simple fact is.....
(we need a drumrol icon)
if you want to compare a .458 bullet to a 12 ga, HEAD TO HEAD, you have to have the same SD bullet, at the same speed ...

compare things EQUALLY or you are merely whistling in the dark

Hey Jeffosso are you TRYING to be STUPID?

It's called "obtuse", but add to that "dogmatic" "assinine" "Confabulatory"
and while I'm at it "jerk" and "Obnoxious"

Possibly "Pendantic"

in any case.... Decaffinate!

ALL of the modern loads for a 12ga shotgun that get these higher velocities are for SABOT loads.

Sub-caliber projectiles.

Thus they HAVE a similar SD to the 45/70 projectiles.

You can appologise at any time.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the warmest 12 ga loads are in the 14,000Psi range, IIRC.

It's like comparing throwing a baseball to a medicine ball...get close.

Rich
4-bore shooter

it's actually more like 16K PSI for the hot slug loads and that against a 73caliber sabot base?

Consider that it's Pressure times area.
and the 12bore has 2.54 times the area for
that lower pressure to work on...

The CORRECT 12bore sabot load beats most HANDLOADED 45/70 and ANY factory loaded ammo.

No it isn't accurate at longer hunting ranges, but at typical deer hunting ranges...

As I said, I own BOTH, each has it's advantages
but if I needed one or the other for self defense I'd go with the 12guage because at close range I can put a lot of metal on target FAST.

Partly because my pump reloads much faster than my 1895 Marlin, partly because my Rifled Remington has an aimpoint on it
while my 45-70 wears a Weaver K4.


AD

LMAO .. i am still giggling at comparing a .458 385 at 2000fps to a .458 385 at 2000 fps .. and calling it "better" ??!??!?!

LMAO -- thanks, AD, I appreciate the reality check

Folks- As much as I love the 12Ga and its more evolved form the 12GaFH, all of my experience says the 45-70( as much as I despise it) past 100yrds is a much better weapon than a std 3'magnum 12 Ga sabot. Even my rifled 12Ga's wont shoot MOA at 100yrds RELIABLY with sabots. Yes,Yes,I've seen the groups from a few 12Ga's that beat that mark, but I'll bet they cant reproduce em.
A run of the mill 45-70 can and it would be my choice for anything over 100yrds anytime of the week.
Now a 12 GaFH is another story indeed. with 4 Quadracones weighing 250gr each at 1800fps, Mr Bear at 50yrds is toast.-Rob