I've been reading for the last several years that the .458 Win Mag isn't enough gun for elephants. It's said that it is just short on velocity using 500 gr. solids. I also understand that several .416's, whether Taylor, Rem Mag, Weartherby, and Rigby's, with 400 gr. bullets are considered to be more than adequate for elephants.

I understand force is mass x velocity, etc. but wouldn't using a .458 with its larger diameter to begin with be about the ultimate? Why do you need to go to a .458 Lott, etc. Why not use .458 with 400 gr. bullets?

I've also read that many people love rifles such as 404 Jeffrey. It's quite a bit less power than the .458 Win Mag.

Could someone give me some general thoughts about the given status among big bore shooters about the Win Mag. Hasn't it killed hundreds or thousands of elephants, hippos, cape buffalo, etc. When did it become a wimpy cartridge???

Check out this thread, it will tell you quite a bit.


https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/134107794

When it was introduced, the .458 Win. Mag. had trouble reaching 2000fps with the bullets and powders of that day.

With the advances in bullet and powder technology, those old reports are no longer applicable.

The .458 Win. Mag. is a fine choice for DG provided you use the proper bullets traveling at optimal velocities.

George

I'll add that 400 grain bullets don't seem to be the right bullet weight, too little sectional density, ie too little weight for diameter. But 450's work, as do 465's, 480's and 500's.

I have had no problem getting 2150fps with 500gr Woodleigh solids.

Even at a sedate 2025fps or so it has worked fine for two elephants for me.

JPK

quote:

Could someone give me some general thoughts about the given status among big bore shooters about the Win Mag. Hasn't it killed hundreds or thousands of elephants, hippos, cape buffalo, etc.

I've posted several times about the equivalence of the 458 Win Mag and the 470 Nitro express.....according to data I'm aware of they are nearly identical in all aspects and you never hear any bad press about the 470!!

GeorgeS hit's the nail almost dead center....I'd add that there seems to be an exclusivity club here.....one that says the 458 Lott is acceptable and the 458 Win Mag loaded with a 500 grain solid at 2,200'/sec (easily achievable) is marginal.....bear in mind the difference is the speed a human being can throw a baseball manually!!!!! (or less)

IMO if the 470 Nitro is adequate then the 458 Win Mag is too.....and then some!!

Yes...the 470 has a larger diameter bullet....about 4%....not much to write home about!!!!!Roughly the same as the 280 over the 270!!!

Then the argument is that the 458 WM operates at higher pressures.....and it does.....but can anyone neme for me an action so chambered that isn't fully capable of holding that pressure?....

I, personbaly, am not fond of the 458 WM as it hammers my shoulder more than I like.....but that's not an argument for it's suitability to someone else.

Some would argue that the double rifles in which it is chambered are not suitable.

On the other hand, I have about 750 rounds through my 458w DR with full loads and there is no problem. I think the combination is less than ideal, but not terminally so.

The rifle is awaiting a restocking and a rechambering to 450NE 3 1/4". Hunting seems to be getting in the way and by the time the restocking and rechambering is done it will likely have accounted for seven or eight elephants.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
When it was introduced, the .458 Win. Mag. had trouble reaching 2000fps with the bullets and powders of that day.

With the advances in bullet and powder technology, those old reports are no longer applicable.

The .458 Win. Mag. is a fine choice for DG provided you use the proper bullets traveling at optimal velocities.

George

AMEN!!!

jeffeoso ,

With that "AMEN!!!", if you'd Bless the .458 Win.Mag. into acceptance as the very bottom rung of the 'BUBBA' ladder, it would make it SO much easier for some of us to get started in that direction...!


Hmmmmmm?

I think Ross Seyfried said it well when he described the 458 win mag as a sorry excuse for a replacement for the older British and Germanic rounds.

Now the nitro express and magazine rounds had been effectively dropping all thick skinned dangerous game for some 50 years before the win mag was introduced, and it took the win mag some 30 odd years before the powders and loads came up to snuff to consistantly provide 500 gr @ 2050-2150 fps.

The win mag has never been a wimpy cartridge, but the case is too small to easily handle sufficient powder and bullet for 500 gr @ 2050-2150 fps. That is a simple fact.

The 458 Lott isn't a dramatically more powerful cartridge, but the case is large enough to easily achieve 500 gr @ 2050-2150 fps.

If the Winchester engineers has truly understood African dangerous game hunting, they would have made the 458 on a full length 2.85" belted case.

Bus,
i think the 9,3x62 isp probbly the least that can get you in!! but a 458winmag is a good excuse to run a 458 AR reamer in!!

jeffe

PaulH,

I agree that Winchester should have started with the full length case. But thats all.

It is absolutely no problem to get 2150 with a 500 grain bullet from the 458wm. No compression issues, no drop tubes, just no problem. 2200 is more than enough and no problem either.

Recent chronograph results from old Winchester factory ammo with the 510gr soft = 2057fps

Even facotry ammo at 2040-2050 is the equivelent to the performance of the bulk of the 450 Nitro rifles. The factory quoted ballistics for the 450 NE 3 1/4" are 2150 with a 480 grain bullet out of a 28" barrel. Not many 28" barrels out there. And according to Graeme Wright, author of the DR loading bible, "Shooting the Britsh Double Rifle", most of the Brit DR's will shoot 75-100fps below the quoted velocity. Thats 2050 to 2075fps for the 450NE - with a lighter 480 grain bullet.

Ron Thomson, former Zim Parks oficer and author of "Mahohba" + Richard Harland former Zim Parks officer and author of "Ndlovu" + 458wm + Winchester ammo with 500gr solids = nearly 10,000 elephants.

Both used NE DR's in their careers, both prefer the 458wm. Neither reports any problems. Both remain ardent 458wm fans. Thompson reported 2040fps and Harland 2050fps with a 500 grain bullet.

There were some problems, but in the scope of the amount of 458wm use they don't amount to much. Thomson's and Harland's experiences put it more in perspective, certainly more than the decades of arm chair bashers that perpetuate the myth.

All this from a guy who would rather hunt DG with a DR in 450 NE 3 1/4" than practice procreation.

JPK

quote:

a 458winmag is a good excuse to run a 458 AR reamer in!!

totaly aggree!

I knew David Ommaney who first tested the 458 in Africa for Winchester. He said John Olin, whom I think kept the ammunition part for the company when Winchester split up (not sure about this) made the 458 the length he did because just about any bolt action in the world could be made to work with the 458 and as a result it increased his ammuntion sales.

FWIW.....Hornady loading data for the 458 win mag:

500 Hornady RN IMR IMR-3031 70.1 2,100
Remarks: maximum load



500 Hornady RN Hodgdon H-4895 75.7 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN IMR IMR-4064 75.3 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Vihtavuori VV-N135 76.0 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Hodgdon H-335 76.3 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 76.9 2,150
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 78.3 2,200
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Winchester W-748 81.4 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


and here's data for the 458 Lott from the same company...the only company making factory ammo I believe...

500 Hornady RN Hodgdon H-4895 74.2 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN IMR IMR-4064 75.5 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Alliant RL-15 76.6 2,150
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Hodgdon H-335 79.3 2,200
Remarks: maximum load


500 Hornady RN Winchester W-748 80.8 2,100
500 Hornady RN Winchester W-748 82.8 2,150
500 Hornady RN Winchester W-748 84.8 2,200
500 Hornady RN Winchester W-748 86.8 2,250
Remarks: maximum load

You be the judge.....

vapodog: MAX LOADS seem to get the job done.

I like to read Ross Seyfried's stuff ( 'specially the article where he used a Remington 700 / .416 for a DGR... ...September 1999 issue #185 RIFLE Magazine, "A Professional's Rifle )
so I'm a bit confused by his judgement of the .458 Win.Mag.

As for rebarreling the gun I would buy; it would be less costly and less effort to be able to buy an off-the-rack rifle in .458 Win.Mag. to start with.

If the 9,3x62 is the base-line 'bubba', then my .375 ULTRA must be close...

Then there's the 'Olin factor' --- selling ammo to fit existing rifles --- good marketing and insightful investment.
Like the story of the gunsmith that gave instructions telling everyone how they needed to break-in the barrel and keep it religiously clean; it wore out the barrels faster so he could stay in business!
That was a Gale McMillan story I love to read from time to time.

As usual, there's always a great deal of wisdom and enthusiasm on this Forum.
Great stuff!

All i can say is that if you read here too much you will start to think that the the lott is a cannon and the 458 is more like a bb gun, at least thats the way my mind worked as i owned a stainless winchester action with an ershaw stainless barrel in 458wm but got caught up in all the feedback of the lott so i sold the stainless 458wm and got a cz550 in the lott. to make a long story short i bought back my stainless 458winny and then compared them to my liking and what i kept was the win mag as it was lighter(8lbs) shorter(22inch barrel) and stainless not too mention it pointed alot quicker, and not only that but chronographing buffalo bore 450gr kodiak bullets at 2243fps and when i chronographed the hornady lott loads i was getting 2260fps, not enough difference for me. Also let me state that i have no plan to go to africa in my lifetime, so i will never have to worry about the eles and buff, although i do love to read about it. My main concern is bear and for me the win mag is good enough. i hope nobody gets affended as these are just my opionions so take them with a grain of salt. One more thing i love about the win mag is there easy to get as i bought a used stainless ruger 338 for 350 dollars and sent it to ershaw and having a 458 barrel with sights put on so when all is said and done i will have another stainless 458 for about 675dollars with the lenght i want..anyway enough rambling good huntin

quote:

Originally posted by grizzinater:
All i can say is that if you read here too much you will start to think that the the lott is a cannon and the 458 is more like a bb gun

That's exactly why I asked the original question. How can 150 fps difference or so between a .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott make one inadequate and the other one an amazing rifle.

Thanks for all the info. and replies.

It can't. I have a friend who thinks an '06 is a crippler while his .300 Weatherby will kill at 600 yards. Try to talk sense to someone like this. I tried to tell him a .30-06 at 200 is a Weatherby at 300, but he can't comprehend anything this complicated.

The 458 WM will get the job done today, and do it well. If chamber pressure is an issue with you then I would do the 458 Lott and down load it to 2150 velocities which will give you lower chamber pressures than the 458 WM. It has been well established for over one hundred years that a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet traveling 2150 will kill any animal on this planet stone dead. It just works.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
The 458 WM will get the job done today, and do it well. If chamber pressure is an issue with you then I would do the 458 Lott and down load it to 2150 velocities which will give you lower chamber pressures than the 458 WM.

It has been well established for over one hundred years that a 500-grain .45 caliber bullet traveling 2150 fps will kill any animal on this planet stone dead. It just works...

...unless it's shot from a .45-70 Govt. cartridge case...

That is also something that is said here.
I asked about that, wondering how it made a difference at 'DGR' distances.
The answer was the case wasn't enough of an engine, regardless of the same dimensions/weight of the projectile.
ETA: With the '.457 Magnum' chambered in a Marlin 1895 by WildWestGuns, wouldn't that be equivalent to the Win.Mag./LOTT differences?
Probably still not enough power, though?

Something 458Win said in an article comparing the the .458 Win.Mag. and .458 LOTT boiled down to 'if you have the former, fine --- if you need to use a (monolithic)solid bullet, get the LOTT...'
I think the article was called '.458 LOTT - much ado about nothing?'

The coolest thing is, you can either get the standard and upgrade, or get the LOTT and use both.
Either one seems to be a great choice.

I read, and post on the internet, too much...

I am weighing converting an old Ruger tang safety .338 Win Mag to .458 Win Mag, or buy a CZ 550 in .458 Lott and shooting .458 Win Mag brass and bullets in it, or get the .458 Win Mag to start with, as I have the dies and brass on hand. Is the .458 Win Mag in the long action CZ 550 a bad idea, from a reliability perspective? Can I use my .458 Win Mag dies to reload .458 Lott or do I need yet another set of dies?

BusMaster007,

No 45/70 will push a 500 grain FMJ or homogenous solid bullet to 2150fps. History seems to confirm that the minimum velocity for reliable penetration for DG, especially elephant, with a 500gr, 458" bullet is 2000fps. If this is true, and it surely seems to be, then a lighter bullet at this speed will not be enough. How 'bout a 458wm BLR? You get your lever, but you get your bullet weight and velocity too.

376 Styer,

No personal experience, but from what I have read, and it seems logical, a 458wm cartridge should only be used rarely, or as a necessity in a Lott chamber for two reasons, first, the shorter cartridge may give reliability issues since there is plenty of magazine length for the shorter cartridge to not be consistently placed for reliable pick up from the magazine (only an issue when hunting, no problem at the range) and second that the shorter cartridge, used frequently, may flame cut the chamber in front of the case neck and lead to sticky full length Lott cases (could cause plenty of trouble down the road when using Lott ammo when facing DG).

JPK

Ihave a beautiful mauser 1909 458winch. i used to kill some cebues and buffalos is a short handy rifle open sigthed presented to me by my good friend G.Amestoy Hoffman after we hunted a nice water buffalo that charged us and my dogo paimun he killed the buffalo at 15 mts with a head shot of his cz 416rigby customized by himself ,he was so greatiful that in a gesture of inmense generosity he made a rifle just perfect for my work .I never has a problem with the 458winch .Juan

JPK,

I forgot about the velocity part of the .45-70 equation.
Still learnin'!

Today chrono'd .458WM using 75gr of H335 with 500gr Hornady. Six shots averaged 2072fps. Easy extraction with no pressure signs. This is out of a 22in bbl BTW.

My position on the big 45's is on record. The old double rifle rounds (450 3.25", 450 2, as well as all of tbe under 50 cal rounds) were fabulous killers in a time where sportsmen, market hunters and game control hunt hunters used them very effectively on all manner of dangerous as well as nondangerous game. These rounds were developed in England and proofed in 30" barrels. None were were sent out with 30" barrels so the velocities they suggested from the ammunition provided were wrong. Some say overoptimistic is an understatement. Now the reality is that a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 out of whatever case chronographed now should be better than anything the old sportsmen had. The ammunition we make or buy now should be far more consistant than anything they had. Putting personal bias aside, the Lott, Win. Mag., or the Capstick will be better ballistically than anything the earlier hunters ever had.If you have a rifle with the capaicty of shooting a 500gr. bullet at 2100+f/s you will have a weapon more than up to the job. All you have to do is gind it a suitable target to shoot at and do YOUR part.

77gr H335 pushing 500gr Hornady resulted in 2110fps average of six rounds. 22in bbl, typically hot and humid, no pressure signs with easy extraction. Makes me wonder what a 24 or 25 in bbl would produce.

quote:

Originally posted by VFR1:
77gr H335 pushing 500gr Hornady resulted in 2110fps average of six rounds. 22in bbl, typically hot and humid, no pressure signs with easy extraction. Makes me wonder what a 24 or 25 in bbl would produce.

My Classic Winchester 70 with 24"barrel will do almost 75 ft/sec faster. Is it a quicker barrel or a longer barrel that gets the speed up. My original Classic 458 Win Mag with 22" barrel would shoot that load at 2160. I foolishly sold that rifle to DJpaintless and he turned it into a 458 Lott. I wish I had it back!

Vapodog that hornady data is very interesting. And something else of interest is there loaded ammunition . They claim the 458 Lott st 2300 now look at there 458 win. mag heavy mag load it pushes the same bullet at 2260.

JPK
Are you sure you want to rechamber you 458 Double????? If it ain't broke don't fixit.

I have handled your double, very nice rifle taking readialy avialable over the counter ammo.
Sounds like a winner to me.

Not to fight a hundred years of history, or that it was not "sufficient, but I was never impressed with the 470's penetration on elephant. Not that much experience with it or the 458 WM on ele's but they both got the job done. The 500 gr. bullet at 2300 fps from the Lott though generally gave noticably greater penetration (it figures, eh?).

Just from my own limited experience, the only reason for 2300 fps is probably shooting big bull ele's. A little more penetration and a little more shock. If anyone wants to buy me a couple dozen bull elephants so I can test that theory, let me know!

NE 450 No2,

Yes/no/yes/no...different days different answers.

I do want to have it restocked, since I really like the rifle and I am a lefty. Still, it is the 1 in 100 right hand guns that I can pick up and shoot well. If it gets restocked it will probably be rechambered too. But hunting seems to get in the way of getting anything done, especially with JJ's loss of a fellow he was bringing along.

BTW, results from playing around:

The 450gr North Fork solids shoot really, really well at 2190fps. Great consistency in each barrel and equal speed from each barrel. Recoil is very significantly reduced from even 500gr Woodleighs at 2030fps or so.

The 480gr Woodleigh solids shoot well at an avg of 2090fps. The left barrel seems faster by about 60fps.

The 500gr Woodleigh solids shoot well at an avg of 2130fps but here the right barrel is at about 2175fps and the left at about 2090. This load needs a bit more work since the barrels shoot 1 1/2" apart at 50yds.

I will either have one bull and five tuskless or seven tuskless, and a buff either way, to hunt this mid Sept through Oct 10. I will go with the North Forks for at least several tuskless and the buff and the 500gr Woodleighs for the bull.

I know you will have much to shoot this coming Oct. Are you going with the North Forks too?

JPK

Editted: You point out a significant factor. The factory Federal 458wm ammo gives (barely) acceptable accuracy. The solids are fine at elephant distance, but cross and spread 3" at 50yds. The softs shoot apart the same distance at 50yds. Good enough for close buff. And the Federal stuff seems relatively plentiful in Zim, should ammo go missing.(So the answer is NO today!)

JPK
Believe me if your ammo gets lost, or you shoot it all up, being able to get ammo that shoots 3" groups at 50 yards would be a godsend. As long as it works I would not rechamber it.

Yes I will use the North Forks in my 450 No2.
They did a good job on a giraffe and a bull elephant on my last trip.
I like them.
I feel they are easier on the bbl than any other bullet.

I just don't see why everybody has to use the 500/510 grs bullet, when all the 450 Nitro's used a 480 grs bullet. Even the 500/465 and .475No.2 used that bullet.
Rurark made the .470 a legend, but how about common sence? And if the .470 was the goal, why did they not use the .475" bullet, thus making the .470 Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Rurark made the .470 a legend, but how about common sence? And if the .470 was the goal, why did they not use the .475" bullet, thus making the .470 Winchester.

Bent,
I tried making some of those up, a 458win necked to 470... looked like hell...

hence, the 470 AR

jeffe

quote:

Bent,
I tried making some of those up, a 458win necked to 470... looked like hell...

jeffe

I know, You told me,ball in a sock. But properly fireformed an FL sized, is it not a visible twin of the .550 Express?

iirc, the 458 has 87-89gr of h20 capacity. it would probably go to about 91-92gr at 475. the AR is 114 or so.

if, in front of the belt, the 458 is .511, subtract .005 for minimum taper, .506, minus .475, that's .031, divide by 2 to get wall thckness, that .0155 wall thickness. so, yeah, it could be done.

2150 would be a stiff load

jeffe

Talking about Woodleigh bullets, assuming they are seated to the cannelure for crimping, the 500gr bullet actually protrudes less into the case than the 480gr bullets. Obviously, when Woodleigh made the 500's they had the 458wm in mind and when they made the 480's they had the 450 NE's in mind.

I have had no powder compaction issues with either bullet, but then I am only loading to acheive regulation in a double rifle and not all out horsepower. The loads I've tried are all midlin' level loads from the Hornaday manual but with either the North Fork or Woodleigh bullets.

In the ideal world, I would love to try a 500gr North Fork in a NE case where length is not an issue.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so, yeah, it could be done.

jeffe

There ya go!!!

But of course, the AR is a superior design, no doubt!

JPK
If I remember correctly, I will check when I get home, the 450 NFFP's are going just a little over 2200fps out of my 450 No2.
They gave excellent penetration on a giraffe and a frontal brain shot on an Hwange bull elephant at 6 yards.
The bullet exited out the back of the head and went so deep into the body we never found it.
I never even fired a finisher.
If they shoot good in you double that is what I would use.