I read with some interest Ganyana's article on the .458 Winchester in the current A.H. magazine.

The impression that I walked away with after reading the article, was that the main problem with the .458 Win. is largely attributed to it's limited case capacity. This lack of room in the case can lead to compression of the powder charge leading to erratic performance.

The article highlights the point by using examples of ammunition being purchased in large lots by game departments and used many months or years later. This ammunition was tested and showed very erratic performance through a chronograph. Powder compression was determined to be the principle reason for the erratic performance.

As I have a .458 Win that I plan to use a back up on an upcoming hunt and will be using new (or better said recently purchased) ammunition, what is the likely hood of this compression issue occurring with fresh ammunition?

I understand that this matter can be resolved by rechambering to the .458 Lott but a shoulder injury limits my recoil capacity to the .458 Win level.

What is the likely hood of experiencing these kinds of problems with freshly loaded modern ammunition?

Would you second guess the .458 (from a clients perspective) as a back up gun?

Shooting fresh ammo is the way to go..If you donot reload, you can have someone locally load you ammo with powder tolerant of heat...
I shoot the 458 Lott and if you drop to a 450 gr bullet you will pick up case capacity for powder..

Mike

My only experience with a 458 was shooting 3 rounds from my PH's rifle after my Buffalo was down. He offered me his rifle for the coup de gras. The rounds shot straight through the Buffalo and hit a tree behind it. They were solids. I would not hesitate to take a 458 with modern ammo.

Having read the same artical,my take is you should be fine, but why not give Supieror Ammo a call, he loads all the big bores he may have a different take on it or another suggestion

I had almost forgotten about Superior, I will give them a call and have them build up a sample pack for me.

Thanks,

400 grs bullets are fine aswell. that makes the 458 a bit more flatshooting, but also more versatile. 400 or 450 grs swift would be very fine for a lighter load.

The3 old 458 WM story holds on for dear life, apparently.

You can easily load the 500 gr. but to 2,150 fps, the same as the 470 NE. I don't hear such dire warnings about the 470's effectiveness.

And as long as to unload any unused handloads, whether the 458 WM or any other, every year there should be no problems with compressed loads regardless of the powder.

I used my .458 Win.Mag. on Elephant and Buffalo in '03 and did not have any result issues. I will be taking the A-Square Triad loads in 465 gr. which all three shoot to the same point of aim(Lion,Solid, DTsoftpoint)to MasaiiLand in 2 weeks. Cabelas has them in their catalogue. The new powders do not seem to have the problems that they did in the past. Again fresh ammunition is a plus.

Superior will be happy to work you up some loads and they do a very good job.
Robert

Will is right. 2150fps with the 500 grain Woodleighs is no trouble at all. No compression issues either. Modern powders have apparently made the round what it was supposed to be fifty years ago.

Milder loads at a sedate 2050fps or so have worked well for me for three buff and two tuskless elephants, and a zebra as well.

JPK

And I thought the .458 win mag was just an elk gun.

500 grains,
You appear to me to be man of strong opinions. Would you shoot an ele with a .458 Win Mag or Lott, or do you think it really matters as long as you are close and hit him where you are aiming?

I have had friends "diss" the 458 Win Mag over the Lott and have tried to defend this old gal - what is your opinion?

Dog,

I was actually just kidding about the elk gun thing (hence the ). However, I have shot an elk with the 458 Lott so I can confirm that it works just fine.

As to an ele, I would not hesitate to use a 458 win mag, as long as I felt comfortable with the chamber pressure. A bit of dust and heat can cause pressure spikes which in turn cause stuck cases. So I see the disadvantage of the 458 win mag not in that its velocity is too low (2150 fps), but that it may run into high pressure due to the small case capacity. But chamber pressure can be kept under control by selecting the right powder and getting to work with the chronograph and the micrometer.

You will not have one minutes trouble with the 458 win mag with anything other that ancient ammo. Over the last twenty years or so I have made a hobbie out of finding old 458 ammo at hardware stores, auto parts places, flee markets . I have yet to find a squib load. Last year I took a Browning bolt 458 as my back up gun. I was so worried about the "458 problem" that I took a ten winchester softs and ten solids , all at least ten years old. All I used it for was to shoot a croc. We shot the rest up for fun after the hunt was over.

Any way take your 458. Don't worry---be happy

I used my .458 with great success. Since I am tall, I opted for a 26" inch barrel, thinking that might help me pick up a few extra FPS.

I took factory ammo, and as I said, it worked perfectly. You have nothing to worry about with modern powders and bullets.

CBNHNTR

With modern powders and bullets there is no problem that needs to be fixed by rebore to the Lott. If you want a little bit of extra horsepower and don't mind the increase in recoil that goes with the Lott conversion go for it. If you don't want to mess with it you don't have to because you already have a big hammer that will match and exceed the performance of all the old Nitro Express cartridges like the 450, 465, 470 etc. Look up the old ballisics charts. you already own an excellent heavy game rifle.

Mark

Am I correct that one can shoot both the 458 WM and the Lott from the same gun so long as it is chambered for the Lott?

Thanks, PG

yes you are correct

Saint Finn Aagaard approved highly of the .458 WinMag. Ron "Mahohboh" Thompson used the .458 WinMag, mostly, for over 5000 elephant bagged.

The standard .458 WinMag throat is a long and spacious funnel. Finn Aagard loaded bullets to .458 Lott length with standard .458 WinMag brass and got .458 Lott velocities by single shot loading the long rounds into his pet .458 WinMag.

This was mainly as a stunt, but if you want 2250 fps with your first shot a 500 grain soft, followed by a magazine full of standard length solids, it can be done if your gun tolerates the POI to within useful limits, and you know the gun and ammo. This does violate the KISS principle.

I always found it easy to get 2150 fps with handloaded .458WinMag 500 grainers in a 24" barrel.

2200 to 2250 fps is about all that the Hornady .458 Lott factory 500 grainers will do in most 24" rifles.

I load my 458 with 480gr. Woodleigh bullets. The first smokeless big bore, 450 3 1/4" made history and with that 480gr. bullet at 2150. In the Win. Mag case there is no compression and very good accuracy with that bullet. If you load Barnes X bullets in 450gr. one can easily achieve 2200 f/s with mild compression and a real punch.

quote:

This was mainly as a stunt, but if you want 2250 fps with your first shot a 500 grain soft, followed by a magazine full of standard length solids, it can be done if your gun tolerates the POI to within useful limits, and you know the gun and ammo. This does violate the KISS principle

Hornady makes some +V ammo now that gives the same velocity as the Lott. So don't screw around with wildcats, just get the good ammo. Not cheap, around $65 a box.

The KISS violation above involves no wildcats, just a standard .458 WinMag chamber and standard .458 WinMag brass.

If Hornady can only do an honest 2190 fps with their soft and 2240 fps with their solid in the .458 Lott 500 grainers in 24" barrel (same charge, different bullets obviously) ...

Many of us do not like to be dependent on loads that may be discontinued at the whim of the factory, rather we like loads that we can easily reproduce velocity-wise with excellent accuracy, at any time.

One had best shoot up those Heavy Magnum top secret type loads every year too, or deal with a solidified squib load sooner than later.

I tried one of them in .375 H&H and got lousy accuracy and over 100 fps less velocity than claimed by the maker.

The problem is old ammo- weather factory or reloads with ball powder - and is not confined to the .458 Win

By all means use one! They work fine on ele or buff. With 400grn X or tripple shock it will work fine on lion- or just about all of the larger plainsgame you are likely to encounter.

As I haven't seen the magazine yet or seen what got edited... I said in the article that there are many happy users of the .458 and it has much to recomend it- just I could never bring myself to use one when there are many much better cartridges available.

Reaming out to a lott is only a partial solution. For a client, and particularly one who reloads, it is accademic - you can make a standard .458 do almost what you can achieve with a lott and you can download a Lott to regular .458 performance.

For a working PH...different story. Are you used to a standard length action? (like me) Or are you used to a magnum length action? I also dislike having to "hook" rounds into a magazine- I want the top of the action to take a full length round- rechamber a regular Winchester M70 and you need to mill quite alot off the back reciever bridge to achieve this ( with a CZ 550 you have no problems- it was designed for a longer round anyway and most work better after being rechambered to Lott!)

As a standard upgrade for a .458 I personally like the .450 Vincent short - no loss of mag capacity, same oal of case and cartridge and I can get a 500grn solid to 2325fps without powder compression - but it is strictly an enthusiasts cartridge!

Ganyana, what do you do about obtaining or making 458 Vincent Short cases? A pipeline to Roy?

Will - cases are most easily made from .404 basic brass - available from Norma or Bertram. run into sizing die,trim to length, and inside ream the neck.

More of a pain is to use .404 brass. Trim, load, fireform, trim and inside ream and clean cases.

Or, yes, Phone Roy and ask for some ammo- but his loads are hotter than I like!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Hornady makes some +V ammo now that gives the same velocity as the Lott. So don't screw around with wildcats, just get the good ammo. Not cheap, around $65 a box.

What "WILDCAT"? 458 LOTT is not a wildcat!

If one handloads there is nothing wrong with the 458 WM, but the so-called magic ammo from some of speciality loaders,is still packing ten pounds of crap, in a five pound bag!
I shoot the 458LOTT, and I don't use factory ammo for anything other than in an emergency. I load my LOTT down to 2150 fps, (450NE 3 1/4"),with a 480 gr Solid or soft. There is no need for anything faster, and in the lott case the chamber pressures are low. This is what the 458WM should have been in the first place, a duplicate of the 450NE 3 1/4", configured for a bolt rifle. Since the LOTT will do anything the 458 Win Mag will, without any chamce of the problems experienced with the 458 WM,at lower pressure, I see no reason to bother with the 458 WM,when you can so easily have a rifle chambered for the LOTT, unless you run out of ammo, and 458 WM is all you can find! I say the lott is the best of both worlds! It shoots the LOTT, and in a pinch shoots the 458 WM as well, so, my question is, why bother with the 458 WM, when LOTT is available so easily?

quote:

Originally posted by PG:
Am I correct that one can shoot both the 458 WM and the Lott from the same gun so long as it is chambered for the Lott?

Thanks, PG

Yes, but if you do it a lot there may be some gas cutting on your chamber which could make Lott brass a bit sticky to extract. In theory it is the same as shooting a 38 special cartridge in a 375 magnum chamber, but you would be using 65 grains of powder instead of 3 or 4 grains, and pressure would be 55,000 psi instead of a max of 17,000 psi with the 38 special. Hence the gas cutting concerns.

500 Grains- I understand what you are trying to convey but I just had to say that this is the first time I have ever heard anyone compare a 458 Lott to a 38 special in one form of the other.

I've heard the .357 /.38 special analogy before. It seemes to work well among those familiar with firearms.

Re: recoil, they both have plenty and I don't notice any appreciable relief shooting the Winmag after a few rounds through the Lott. (maybe I am in some form of shock) :-) For me, once I get to that level, it takes a lot of difference to make a difference.

So, I just stick with the Lott.

I don't own one but it seems the CS Custom 450gr FN solid would be good bet for a solid option. It is listed at 2250-2300 fps max. If loaded to 2150 fps it should keep pressures very favourable while still packing a mighty wallop?

I asked Superior to load up a sample pac with 500 grain FN solids starting at 2050 fps increasing by 25 fps until Max of 2150 fps. Will see which one provides the best combination of accuracy and recoil management.

Thanks for all the imput.

I just found a video of some load testing with my .458 at max loads. How do i post it?

I have a custom Mauser argentine 1909 model 458winch with a 20 inch barrel that i used as back up rifle for water buffalo and for killing cebues with aftosa fever in a ranch i never ,never have a problem with new ammo .Juan

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Will - cases are most easily made from .404 basic brass - available from Norma or Bertram. run into sizing die,trim to length, and inside ream the neck.

More of a pain is to use .404 brass. Trim, load, fireform, trim and inside ream and clean cases.

Or, yes, Phone Roy and ask for some ammo- but his loads are hotter than I like!

No properly headstamped 450 Vincent Short (or Long) brass then. That sure would be a nice item to offer in the Accurate Reloading Company Store.

I would swear off the 45/404 Dakota 2.565" if there was some 450 Vincent basic brass.

Just a reminder to the 458wm's armchair critics:

Ron Thonson + Richard Harland + 458wm + Winchester ammo with 500gr solids = near 10,000 elephants. Neither reports any problems, both remain ardent 458wm fans.

Yes, Winchester should have made the 458wm on the Lott length case. Yes, there are real instances of clumped powder and loose bullets, But these two guys' records puts things in perspective.

JPK

Not to nitpick but it was Thomson who thought that some of the solids were bouncing off the phunts. I think he passed it off as the bullets not stabilizing at such short ranges.

10,000? Dang, that's a bunch of bodies. I don't know.

There is something, though, in using a big bullet to knock one down.

Will,

I recall the comment. I think it was more about getting straight penetration. But, your comment is good enough reason to find the book and reread it.

The 10,000 elephants comes from Ron Thomsons recolection of more that 5,000 and Richard Harlands of 3500 or 4000. I think I will find his book and reread it too. Add in a reread of your book and thats some good summer reading waiting for this fall's hunt.

BTW, I really enjoyed your book. Good to see that you are tetering on the edge of going back to 500 grains of bullet.

JPK

Thomson spoke highly of the old Winchester yellow box solids in .458. How did he do it without a super duper custom bullet???

The Lord only knows!

That is the most refreshing thread I have read on this forum. It is GREAT to see such a much maligned cartridge get a realistic and practical thumbs up from such a variety of experts.

In my case I have used a .458 Win Mag for 21 years as a full time Ph of dangerous game without one hiccup - and my rifle is a push feed to boot.

Oh, come on, that cannot possibly be true. No one would admit on AR to using a push feed.