I'm thinking about building a nice, English style medium-heavy in the next year or so. I was planning on a 416 on a GMA action but am starting to have second thoughts. If I start with a military Mauser action, financially, I can have a 404 a good way towards completion by the time i write the check for the GMA action required for a rigby. I'v considered the cz action for the 416 but decided I'd like to go pure Mauser. As near as I can calculate I'd save about $2000 going with the 404. If anyone has input that might help bring some clarity to this dilema i'd appreciate it.

Just wondering why would you save $2000 with a .404 ? I was looking at the same 2 rounds but in a Dakota, Heym, etc.

It looks like Ammo, dies, etc. in the Rigby would be less expensive.

the new kimber 8400 is a 404 jeffery length action...it is very niiiiiice (john cleese fake french accent in holy grail)

it is a mauseresque action...

tradewinds, I can do the 404 in a standard military mauser which would run about a grand, I think, inclusive of new bottom metal. If I went with a 416, I would need a magnum action which seem to start at about $3000. Unless I went with a cz action, for the 416, which I'd rather not for this project.

micdis...

what max oal can you get for the jeffery in the military mauser???

Ok Makes since. Have you checked into .404 dies?

Boom Stick, The 404 is a touch shorter than the 375 H&H so should fit fine. Ch4d makes dies. I'm guessing some others do too. Also norma makes brass prices similarly to the 416 Rigby.

Money issue aside. How could you not want a 404? It is the Holy Grail of bolt action African rifles. Not the wannabe that the 416 is.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Money issue aside. How could you not want a 404? It is the Holy Grail of bolt action African rifles. Not the wannabe that the 416 is.

I'd be happy with either one. I'll be happier if I can save a few grand.

416 rigby... for lots of reasons.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
416 rigby... for lots of reasons.

jeffe

404 Jeffery for lots more reasons!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
416 rigby... for lots of reasons.

jeffe

404 Jeffery for lots more reasons!

more INFINITY!!

LOL..
jeffe

Great, my minds made up. Just kidding. If either of you care to elaborate I'm all ears.

You might check out the November-December Rifle Magazine.
I think Harry Selby's .416 Rigby started as a standard M98.

I've read a bit about Selbys 416 but the idea makes me a little nervous. Although I understand that it worked well enough that he was able to shoot the rifle enough to wear out a barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by micdis:
Great, my minds made up. Just kidding. If either of you care to elaborate I'm all ears.

While it's argued (successfully) that there's more bullets available for the 416, it don't mean too much as it only needs one!!!There are a few very good .423 bullets available and one is all it takes.

The real reason is that the 404 Jeff is a smaller diameter case and will actually fit in a Mauser action (assuming you have a smith that has done this before and you trust!!!)

The 416 Rigby really isn't a candidate for the Mauser action such as a VZ-24 etc.
The rest of the reasons are all $$$$$$$$$$$

and the 416 rigby in a cz is cheaper than building a 404!

and the rest is all $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

jeffe

I shoot both calibers extensively and enjoy both very much.

Although I've never made it to Africa, the .404 served VERY well on a number of Wood Bison in the NWT for quite a few years. The bullets used were Barnes Originals, their 400-grain copper-tubing-jacketed ones with .049" jacket thickness, and loaded to 2400 fps. Sudden death, and no mistake about it.

Lately, both rifles are cast-bullet test-beds. With a new NEI 400-grain mould, I have NO trouble equalling historic Kynoch velocity/energy in the .404, with fine accuracy. The .416 has also demonstrated its tractability with cast loads, using the RCBS nominal-350-grain bullet at up to 2700 fps. No leading in either rifle, to put THAT old-wives' tale to rest.

.404 brass is easily made from the RUM brass, with .375s offering the easiest transition. .338 RUMs are a tad shorter than .300s and .375s. Sixty cents per case whips the daylights out of $2.00-plus! No such cut-rate .416 Rigby cases are available, but my Norma .416 brass seems to last forever, so it's not much of a concern.

My .404 is based on a standard '98 Mauser, as worked over by Cogswell and Harrison. At only 8.5 pounds, it's a fast-handling rifle that speaks with real authority.

Either caliber is entertaining and rewarding.

quote:

but decided I'd like to go pure Mauser.

quote:

and the 416 rigby in a cz is cheaper

it's not cheaper if it ain't what he wants!!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and the 416 rigby in a cz is cheaper than building a 404!

But that really only matters to poor people.

The .404 offers the same bullet weight and velocity as a 416 Rigby, but with a smaller action, lighter rifle and less recoil.

micdis,

on the other hand, starting with a P17 or M30 will build a 416 Rigby or 505 Gibbs length cartridge rifle for the same amount of $$$ it takes to do a Mauser. So, 416R, 450R, 470 M'bogo, 510KX/Wells, 500A2, 550 Magnum all Rigby-based. 450, 475,505,510, or 550 Gibbs-based mothers. PM me your Email address and I will send you some pics of a James Wisner built 505 Gibbs I have been abusing myself with the past month or so.

Go big, or stay at home...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:


The .404 offers the same bullet weight and velocity as a 416 Rigby, but with a smaller action, lighter rifle and less recoil.

smaller, lighter and less recoil is a BIG benefit if you want to hunt DG with it. If you just want to fondle it and shoot it at the local rifle range, then it doesn't matter. I still prefer the 404J though.

Tim

Idaho, I should have my Wff Hein .505 gibbs in about a month or so. I hate waiting, I've had brass, bullets, and dies sitting around for months. I'd love to see some pics of the Gibbs you're playing with. I would like to do a traditional pre-war English style Mauser this go around.I've been posessed by the notion that that is what I really NEED for two decades, and I'm afraid that nothing less will exorcise that deamon.

Either one is steeped in African Hunting! I'm going with the 416 Rigby, it's my choice. The 404 Jeffery is a slick feeder, with power.
I think you should opt for the 404. Why?? You'll develope a smooth feeding DGR, that is worth more than a few extra fps!!

404 Jeffery. Great round, case isn't too big.
If you are "Romancing a Caliber", it's about as good as it gets for a magazine rifle!
I think these two turned out nicely!



Stamped on the barrel, lightly
a word and not much more.
A single word "Jeffery"
"Jeffery 404"

Just my opine

micdis,

if you have a 505 Gibbs the optimum choice here is the 404. I really like the 416R, great first choice for a heavy, hard hitting DGR. When my 550 Gibbs is done I will probably demote the 416 to 350gr bullets at about 2450-2600fps for everything but a Big Five hunt. Same-same for your 404 project. The best part, is that which ever one you go with, next year you can do the other one!

hope the pics got thru, let me know.

Rich

Neither. .425 Express, which will work in a regular 98 action.

I went around w/ a sim. dilema & ended up w/ the .404jeffery & couldn't be happier. You can easily run 400gr @ 2300fps+ which isn't quite where the .416 can go but close enough. There are more bullets available in .416 but enough good bullets are out there for the .404j to make it work (Swift, NF, Woodleigh, Barnes & Hawk). The .404j will come in a bit lighter & probably carry more rounds down than a .416Rigby. Brass is readily available for both but the .404j is really a handloaders round.

Rusty,

Please remind me who made your .404. It looks very nice.

I did my .416 on a Sako L61R action -it´s pushfeed I know but a very nice rifle.

Dan,
The metal work was done byTIP BURNS
His friend John Valicek did the stock work.
Roger Kehr, aka ScrollCutter,kehrengraving@comcast.net did the engraving.
Actions were MONTANA RIFLE CO. Long Actions. Barrels were 26" LOTHAR-WALTHER.423 Magnum Sporter Contours.
The Black Walnut stock blanks came from WATTS WALNUT
Sights and barrel band NECG.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and the 416 rigby in a cz is cheaper than building a 404!

But that really only matters to poor people.

The .404 offers the same bullet weight and velocity as a 416 Rigby, but with a smaller action, lighter rifle and less recoil.

Oh, and I forgot that there's several 404 prints running around, which might lead to hassles with headspace and misfirings

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It's an undeniable fact that guys who build custom .404's often experience headspace/misfiring problems because of differences between chamber dimension and ammo dimension. Why does this problem crop up with .404's but not with other calibers????

thanks for reminding me of that, dan

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It's an undeniable fact that guys who build custom .404's often experience headspace/misfiring problems because of differences between chamber dimension and ammo dimension. Why does this problem crop up with .404's but not with other calibers????

isnt it a big nono to hunt with anything but one fired brass

What was Ruger's tale about the .404 and headspace unreliability?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
isnt it a big nono to hunt with anything but one fired brass

Boomy,
read lars' tale of wow (was glen, right) on brass, once fired...

jeffe

Rusty, thanks for the leads!

jeffie, do you research all of my posts? It seems like it. Now if you also took a reading comprehension course, you would know what my posts mean. Imagine that!

.416 is more practical by far.

And I just love those massive big cigar length rounds!

I'd be the first to agree about the 416 being more practical. A quick trip in the morning to Cabelas,pick up a CZ 550, RCBS dies, a bag of Norma brass, and a box of Hornadys and be home in time to load some rounds and get to the range by closing time. Right now I'm leaning .404 not only to save a few grand but to build on a real Mauser action and get as close as I can to a prewar English gun. A medium heavy is the only gap, real or percieved, in my gun safe and i'd like to fill it in style. Is there any good reason NOT to build a 404 on a standard Mauser action provided provided proper heat treat and correct mag box?