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I have been planning, for some time, to build a .500 Jeffrey on a Banner Mauser action that I own. However, the work that is required, to make a M98 take and feed a .500 Jeffrey, makes me hesitant to proceed with this project - chopping into a Banner Mauser almost seems sacrilegious to me. So, I am now looking around to see what other .500 cartridges could be used in a Mauser action and wanting to see what the AR team can suggest. I am not looking for Tyrannosaurus-thumping power, but I am thinking that a cartridge capable of at least 2000fps with a 535gn projectile, would be adequate for my purposes. I have started to do some research on the .500 AR and the .500 Van Horn Express but confess that I do not know very much about either of these cartridges at the moment. Any suggestions/comments are welcome and I hope to learn a lot more about the cartridges mentioned above and any other .500 cartridges. ----------------------------------------------- "White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell) www.cybersafaris.com.au | ||
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The 505 Empire was designed to emulate the 500 NE ballistics in a magazine rifle...lower velocity than the J4effery, A-Square 500, 505 Gibbs. Those last couple 100 FPS make quite a bit of difference on the receiving end of the stock. Not sure about the fit or parent case they use, but worth a look. | |||
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I'd also like some comment/info about the sort of magazine work that is required to feed these cartridges in a M98. "White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell) www.cybersafaris.com.au | |||
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The 500 AR will ft, easy peasy, but you should heat treat. the 500 AR, has case drawings in my signature, and LOTS of load info on ammoguide. Basically, you can load 600gr to 2300 and 535s to 2400+, BUT 2150 is comfy. 500 AccRel dies are cheap, $125, and i have them on hand. Reamers are right now at McGowen, which makes great barrels, and can do your entire metal work job. i AM proud of the 500AccRel - if you need a bototm metal, the 495A2 size works fine. brass is from custombrassandbullets or direct from qualcart ,, or fireform hornady 416 rigby easily. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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It can and has been done with the 500 Jeffery, but the amount of work it takes is extradordinarily complicated. Yes, re- heat treating should be done, but few actually know what they are doing. I suggest a single stack mag be fabricated as you will undoubtably have problems with feeding otherwise. Personally I would not sacrifice a Banner Mauser action but would find a VZ-24 to start with. To be honest I'd go with Jeffe's .500 accrel or buy a CZ550 and get over it.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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All I can say is that my .500 Jeffery on a 1909 Argentine action feeds perfectly and many others have successfully done in standard length actions. I continue to maintain that a classic action deserves a classic cartridge. Mike | |||
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Good point (Not that you needed my opinion  )577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I believe the 505 Empire is on a shortened 460 Weatherby case. It is very similar to the A Square 495. | |||
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Question... Will a 500 Jeffery clean up a 500AR chamber? If so you could try the 500 AR first (Cheaper and less feeding issues) and if you want or need more go for the 500 Jeffery I have shot the 500 AR and it is awesome =) 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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BwanaBob, Bob deVries in Melbourne. Give him a call and discuss your needs. Drop Short & Fat a PM as he's playing with his 500AccRel at the moment in a Ruger MkII and I think has settled at 535gr at 2250fps. Strangely ... he seems to have no desire to go faster. Cheers... Con PS: Bob deVries also did the barrel fitting etc... to the Ruger so has seen what it takes to get the 500AccRel up and running. PSS: You could also do a 550Express ... now that I think I've located an Aussie manufacturer for projectiles. | |||
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 Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Its a tapered 460 weatherby case to .505, with no ghost shoulder, running at reasonable pressure. It is only "like" a 495 in that its a shortened webby case. Con, You need a 550 express reamer down there? and its not unexpected that he's at 2250 ... the bullet performs well, and recoil goes up a notch at 2350 .. but, 600gr at 2150 aint half bad! .. but, hey,. .Joe went 2468 with a 535.. that a little rocking and rolling? A 500 Jeffe would entirely clean up a 50 AccRel chamber.. the 500 accrel DOES kick the least of all the major .510s .. why? it burns less powder! I am greatly complimented whenever anyone builds a rifle off these cartridges .. and I too have built 3 500 jeffes .. its a GREAT round. If I was going to buld a 500 jeffe, I would get someone like Tipp Burns to build it for me. The feeding is a NIGHTMARE for about but about 1/2 a dozen smiths ... don't let anyone fool you, if they say its easy to get to feed, then they are either an EXCELLENT smith (and call them and ask how much to build the rifle) or they haven't built the first one, and just don't' know what they are getting in to. call mcgowen and ask them how much to build you a 500 AccRel .. I would be proud to just know you had called and asked. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe, S&F's response when I told him that I'd possibly found a source for 0.550" projectiles (Woodleigh Weldcores  ) was not repeatable amongst gentlemen and ladies.Reason he was so agitated is that Australia now rates with Afghanistan for getting stuff out of the USA. PacNor is now slugging (apparently thanks to your State Dept) US$300 per export order. May have another avenue though ... time will tell. Cheers... Con | |||
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Great reason to start with the 500 AR/AccRel 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Another plus for the 500 AccRel. I think it would be quite dandy in a Mauser and after all it is based off of a classic round, the .416 Rigby just shortened a bit for standard length actions. Very slick and capable round. Rodney. | |||
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Does anyone have cartridge drawings for any of the mentioned cartridges? I know that the .500 AR is here, on this site, but what about drawings for: .495 A-Square, and .505 Empire. I have decided not to butcher the Banner Mauser action and have remembered that I have a Belgium-made standard-length M98 action that was originally a .416 Rigby that a previous owner tried to 'improve' the feeding on and, in the process, he took out a little too much metal off the feed rails. The result is that, about 10 to 20% of the time, a round will pop out of the magazine - totally unacceptable in a hunting rifle, particularly one that could be used for dangerous game. My thoughts now lean towards using this action for something like a .495 A-Square or a .505 Empire, or a wildcat closely related to these two cartridges, as I am hoping that the parent Weatherby case, with the belt providing a slightly greater diameter than the .416 Rigby case, will allow me to fix the feeding problems and the magazine is already the correct size. ----------------------------------------------- "White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell) www.cybersafaris.com.au | |||
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I believe all three rounds.. the 500 ar, the 505 empire, and the 495 are on ammoguide opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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On a standard 98 I would choose the 500AR or 495A-2. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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I can't find either the 505 Empire nor the .495 A-Square on Ammoguide. ----------------------------------------------- "White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell) www.cybersafaris.com.au | |||
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lemme look .. basicaly, its a 2.65" long 460 webby case .. one has a ghost shoulder, one doesn't, one's .505, and the other is .510 you are right, not there... i THOUGHT they were.. that means no one loading them is sharing them call George Sandmann, at empire, and he'll probably send you drawings. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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BwanaBob, Get Bruce Bertram to send you a sample of his 500Weatherby. Its still a long case so an M98 would require opening ... but it's readily available and to be honest could do with a shortening. With 535gr Bertram projectile seated its spot on at 3.6". Cheers... Con | |||
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It seems that the 500 Jeffery is taking some hard knocks. Yes it takes a little bit of work to get it to feed but they all do. I like to think that the 500 Jeff is the best of the group and do not see any reason not to use it. The action has to be opened up, the correct size bottom metal and follower, a smith that knows what there doing, and you have it. Do not let the talk "THERE HARD TO GET TO FEED" stop you. "There is a bloody brave little animal called the honey badger in Africa. It may be the meanest animal in the world. It kills for malice and for sport, and it does not go for the jugular-it goes straight for the groin. It has a hell of a lot in common with the modern American woman." Robert Ruark-The Honey Badger SGB7x57@Gmail.com 360-918-8283 NRA Life Member SCI Life Member WANT TO RETURN TO AFRICA CLUB Life Member | |||
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First class single stack 500 Jeff: Haugh500Jeff NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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I agree with Robgunbuilder, you'll be easier and cheaper to buy a rifle in caliber 500 Ceska Jeffery. Greetings, Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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this is the ONLY thing that matters.
That some can do it, basically without thinking, is a testement to their genius, NOT the ease of the job. Steve, serously, I am not meaning to be a jerk, but talk like that makes me ask a question. How many 500 jeffery's have you personally made feed? If more than 1, i do appologise ... if none, then, I will say, in all friendliness, when all is said and done, its easier said than done opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The potential for feeding problems with the severely rebated rim of the .500 Jeffery case is real and would be enough to dissuade me from doing it. In fact, it has positively kept me from doing it! Feeding problems only matter, of course, if you plan to hunt dangerous game animals with your rifle. But then they matter a hell of a lot! A Tanzanian PH friend's .500 Jeffery nearly got him killed a couple of years ago when the bolt slid over the rebated rim of the top round in his magazine and slammed shut on an empty chamber. The rifle had fed and functioned without problems for many years before the failure to feed. Luckily, he managed to elude the charging cow elephant that had ignored his first warning shot, and was then coming toward him fast and with a purpose, just long enough for his client to have time to get in a killing shot. He has retired that rifle, permanently, from dangerous game hunting. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Owned an original Schuler for a while-- loved the rifle, mostly for the nostalgia, never hunted Africa with it, never misfed but always was a concern. The above advice is good. 1.) Save the Banner for a classic Euro cartridge. (9.3 , etc) 2.) Build a 500AR (or the belted equivalent if you want a belt) on another action. Better yet, 3.) buy a 500NE double, which is what I did with the Schuler proceeds ,15 years ago. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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This sounds like a problem with the magazine spring and not the cartridge. Like you say, he had hunted with the rifle for years before a failure. Just my two cents but I think the alleged feeding problems with the .500 Jeffery are greatly exagerated. Not many were ever built and I am unaware of any reports of feeding problems with those rifles. I have a CZ and it feeds like butter but perhaps they just feed better when they are built on a magnum lenght action. If I had a concern in that regard, I would have AHR build one up for me with a single stack magazine and that should eliminate any problems whatsoever with respect to feeding. The .500 Jeffery is a superb cartridge and I submit that it is in fact easier to get a .500 Jeffery to feed than the oversized .505 Gibbs. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave, Respectfully, you haven't ever built one. The 500 jeffe is a nightmare for anyone but the best feeding smiths there are. I am NOT one of them. The gibbs is FAR easier to make feed. singlestack? sure, that works. However, that's the non-tradional way .. that's how you get a 460 weatherby to feed perfectly. I LOVE the 500 jeffe, and invented the 500AR as a modern, unrebated, version,. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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 That is really interesting since that ISN'T the typical feeding issue encountered when the bolt overrides the rim! I consider this to be another internet inspired MYTH (or to be honest BS). | |||
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No Con your selling me short, I have 50 rounds loaded up with 102g of AR2206H (H4895) for 2450 fps behind the 535g Bertrum projectile. I'm tallin ya, you know you are bordering on a hand held cannon at that speed especially with my med/light weight gun. Yep go the 500 AccRel, Bob at KUDU made mine he knows whats needed, regards S&F | |||
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Joe, 2450 is BRISK! Sure, you can beat that with a 500 jeffery for 505 gibbs .. but its past the point of being FUN I like 600gr at 2150 .. right at the edge of the woodliegh PPs impact speeds, so you get really good performance out of both jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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+1 When a good gunsmith does it right it feeds as good as an 375 H&H, they just have to know where and how much metal to remove in the front and rear of the action to not compromise the strength of the action. Any rifle that does not feed properly can get you killed, an action that blows apart can get you maimed or killed quicker. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Jeff: No, I have never built one but all this stuff about there are only six guys in the world who can make a .500 Jeffery feed is just nonsense. Harlan at Triple River didn't seem to have any problem getting my CZ to feed. I had to send it back a couple of times because there was a problem with the throat and it had a rough chamber. Eventually, they just re-barreled it for me at no charge but from day one, right out of the box, it feed like butter. Jeff, I don't know enough about this to verify this but I am thinking it is much easier to get one to feed when you put it in a magnum length action rather than a Mauser 98. Just my two cents. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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One other thought here. I will probably never have a chance to hunt an elephant but if I ever was faced with a real genuine charge there would only be one "warning" shot, right in the center of the forehead! Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Standard m-98 to 500 Jeff. conversion. Opening the mag well to accept a 500 jeff. box is fairly easy machine work. As is opening the bolt face. Opening the extractor for proper grip on the case is hand work, a radius needle file and a stone work well for me here. One nice thing about going to the 500 Jeff. is that the bolt face does not require as much steel be taken to get the case rim to fit as some of the others. The less steel taken from .700 m-98 bolt face the better. The reason being is the lower half of the bolt face counterbore at the bottom of the ejector cut thru the left lug. This very small segment of the bolt face counterbore can easily be broken off. This is not a problem if the bolt is left in the action, but people take the bolts out and I've seen where people have accidently dropped their bolts chiping off the small segment. Not a happy time. Something to consider, the 500 Jeffery takes less steel from this area than the 460 and Rigby case headed 500s'. The real work comes in fitting of the rail width. Judicious grinding and polishing of the rails is required. Grinding the rails wider until the 500 jeff. feeds reliably and leaving enough rail so the rounds do not self eject from the magazine when the bolt is pulled back to it's stop. It's a fitting process. You are fitting the cartridges to the rails for reliable function. For me it's a grind, polish and evaluate feed process. Repeat until perfect feed is achieved. Do not go hog wild with the grinder or you will find yourself with a receiver that self ejects from the magazine when the bolt is pulled back. When done properly the 500 Jeff works very well from a standard m-98 stagger stack setup. Like anything, this conversion is a process with steps to follow and abide by. With the right smithing a Banner Mauser to 500 jeffery is very cool. No sacrelige there for me. Picture a nice open sighted 500 built on a Banner with that Mauser banner on the front ring. It's a classic. Timan | |||
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Dave, This will read like I am pointing figures at you and/or poundingh points home . its not, just that I like to answer point by point. Remeber, we are buds, and this aint about beating on dave. Dave, if you had ended here, it would have been great No sir, and Harlan is one of them .. 6 might be a low number, but 20 there AINT he's made 100s of them. Of course he has it right. He's built more than jeffery did apparently its not that easy to get it right. a COUPLE times? REALLY? NO! it's not. The round is designed to be the "ultimate" in a standard length 98. The gibb's weakness was the requirement for a magnum length. This is a core basic baseline difference.
You will see that I don't agree with opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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and here is one of the guys that can make it feed, perfectly thanks Stu opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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jeffeosso: Just to set the record stgraight: I looked over Steve's shoulder, making occasional comments while he was converting a 1909 to 500 Jeff. Yes...feeds in any position including upside down. This mythical "feeding problem" crops up continuously on AR. The single stack is also GREAT..but makes for a very deep, clumsy stock line. When we (SMP) designed the 500 Jeff box, we made it no deeper than our 300H&H box..nice stock line and no need for the extra long trigger assembly. This is a classic cartridge that Suhler specifically designed to fit the 98...at that time is was the most powerful African ctg. available, and still packs more punch than the 505Gibbs, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro and comes within a squeak of the mighty 600 Nitro. | |||
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