Hi
Ganyana has suggested that a good lion rifle needs at least 2250 to use hydrodynamic shock, on the cats. He's also said the 458 Lott will do that.
HOW? What barrel length, and loads, give that sort of velocity?

The reloading stats indicate your hard pressed to get 2200 fps out of a 22 inch Lott.

Thanks

GS
PS
I'm converting my CZ 550 .375 to a 458 Lott

http://www.accuratereloading.com/458lott.html

i'll let others share their loads but i think people who say the lott is good to 2300 are pushing it.

the 458 a.r. does 2400...somethin to consider, just a chamber cleaning for the 458 win mag with the reamer and viola!

I maybe brain dead, but, the highest velocity I see is 2286, with a 500 grain bullet.
I would like more loads, with lower pressure, if possible. Longer barrel?

That's actually what I'm asking. How long should the barrel be, 24 inches?

now what about reaming out a 458 to get over Lott velocities????
GS

those loads on the a.r. site are from a 22.5" barrel. i do not advocate the lott doing 2300 but rather the 458 a.r.

here you see the lott and a 24" barrel shooting 2300 in an advertised velocity

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/buff_1124/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Watts.htm

more info...

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_all.asp?CaliberID=158

http://www.african-hunter.com/458_watts___458_lott.htm

the above has a load for 2300

500 grain Hornady
Steel jacketed solid S321 82 grains 2312 fps

If I had a Lott and wanted a Lion round I would use either the 400 or 450gr North Fork Soft.

I'm not sure what the source is of the "drive-by" hysteria about 2300 fps.

When I had a Lott, I got 2300 fps with 500 gr. bullets and a 22" barrel.

So what is the problem?

I'm with Bulldog on this. I think the 400 or 450gr North Forks would be pefect. I alos think the 400gr Trophy Bonded would be a good one for lion.

JPK

There are a bunch of folks that just swear by the 500 grain bullet on lion, even if at lower then Ganyana speeds.

Bill, what barrel, and rifle, and load did you use?

Thanks

GS

the lott, at 2200, actually solves the problem it was designed to answer... big bullet, reasonable pressure...

when you knock on knock on 2300, you are POUNDING on the same pressures as the winmag.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the lott, at 2200, actually solves the problem it was designed to answer... big bullet, reasonable pressure...

when you knock on knock on 2300, you are POUNDING on the same pressures as the winmag.

jeffe

Jeff:
Do you think the lion really know the difference between 2150, and 2250? Ganyana says yes, and, if that's the case, I can suffer with a 24 inch barrel, or longer. I could use it on the damn crow outside...;-) Seriously,
I could live with a longer barrel, if that extra 100 fps really makes that much difference. Ray used to swear by 500 grains, at 2150 fps for lions. Wish he was around.

GS

GS,
I don't know for shooting lions,,, Gaynana certianly does.

The 458 winmag struggles at 2150, while the lott is easy at 2200, or ven moderate at 2250 ... the winmag can NOT get to 2250 (unless hornady is doing it) within designed pressures..

but, in all honesty, the lott can get 2200+ with a short tube...

then again, my 458 AR can hit 2350 with a 21" barrel!

I have read on cats, that the softest bullet you can use is more important... after all, they've been killing them with 450 NEs for 100+ years... 500gr at 2150 MV

jeffe

GS,

It was a CZ with as much IMR 4320 that I could stuff in it, and then some!

But the AR round is another wildcat. The question remains the same. About the Win. Mag and the Lott not the AR. I have had three 458 Winnys and all of them would do 2125-2150 f/s and perhaps at what they call HIGH pressure except the 22"barrel rifle. I don't call within SAMMI spec a high pressure round. The Lott I have will do 2350 f/s with hornady RN bullets. It has a 24" barrel. I think that based on firing similar loads in the Winny that you loose 10-15 f/s for each inch lost. My 22"barrelled Winny would average 20 f/s less than my 25".
The Lott is a different thing altogeather. I can and do shoot it at 2150. Could it do more? Oh yes but Why? Americans are obcessed with speed. If 2150 is perfect then 2250 has to be the nuts on perfect. I got over the speed freak thing in my formative youth and wildcat period. I don't own any wildcats any more and if I need more speed I choose a different round as the guys with the Lott are doing. Shoot the Lott at hotter Winny velocities(2150 f/s) and be happy with great penetration, exellent bullet stability and a time proven power package equal to any of the great Nitro Express rounds from 450, 3.25 to the 470 N.E. which everyone thinks is the best all around double rifle round.

My 8.5 lb, .458 lott O/U CZ double rifle ( the stopper) with 24 inch barrels easily hits 2250 with 500gr bullets. I actually find it hard to believe an extra 100fps makes any difference on cats. Just shoot them in the heart( not exactly where you think it is) and they die real quick like.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
... perhaps at what they call HIGH pressure except the 22"barrel rifle. I don't call within SAMMI spec a high pressure round.

LB,
yep, the AR is another wildcat... and I hope it gains some ground.

On the SAAMI spec, I call anything over 55kPSI to be HIGH pressure, and the win/lott operate at what, 62,300 ish, same as weatherby rounds, and the RUM/WSM family at a smooth 65,000psi.

SAAMI is a funny thing.. in the case of the 38/55 and the 375 win... the win is shorter, fits in a 38/55 chamber perfectly as they headspace off the rim, but the 375 is decidedly high pressure.

On the lott..
at 2250, quickload projects (yes, it's wrong for straight cases, but it's known), 54,570 is for 2250...

but 2300, that last 50 feet, is over 62kpsi...

That last 50fps gets you more than 13.5% high pressure than 2250...

for what it's worth, at 2200fps, the lott is 50kPSI...

so the previous 50FPS is 2/3 the cost, in pressure, of the next 50FPS.


I, personally, don't like the additional pressure.


Or, case in point, the 500 jeffe can FAR out perform the 510wells/500a2.. if loaded to the same pressure, and the same loading technique, as the A2 is smaller case (~22grains) than the jeff... but it is loaded at 63816 by saami (remember, art took these through)

A2 - 570gr wood, 24" barrel, to 63816, 2495fps
500 jeffe - same load and pressure, 2630

load them both the 46412 (jeff pressure)

500 jeffe - 2426
500A2 -2306...

I don't like high pressure... so I just use bigger cases

the longer I am here the more I find my tastes paralleling Jeffe's. Use as fat and as long (3" long) a case as you can; and the Rigby case is perfect, and shoot a big heavy bullet areound 2250-2400fps. Buy unstamped Rigby cylindrical brass and have your jeweler engrave it.

It is what I am doing on my 510, and a 600gr bullet at 2250 to perhaps 2300 fps will get the job done.
In a 458, go 2450 and see the cases fall out of the chamber with a flick of the bolt with your pinkie finger.

regards,

Rich

I also like big cases and low pressures. That being said, Weatherby and RUM pressures are not dangerous. They fall outside of what some folks like but NOT dangerous. Now Loading some of these other rounds shooting 600 gr. bullets at 2600 f/s is kinda dumb to me. More power than necessary and more recoil than most sane people want to put up with, and less controlability that is REQUIRED for the task. faster is not better. Bigger with lower pressure is not necessarily better either. Just my point of view, not anything to consider really. I often have duplicate rounds in my battery and it is fun to play one against the other. In the case of the Win mag, 2150 is easily reached with 500 gr. bullets and 2150-2200 f/s is easy with the GS 450gr. FN. We often discuss issues such as this as fine points in reloading/load development/ and performance forgetting that there are those out there that don't have a lot of experience loading and shooting big stuff. They are looking for sane advice and when you tell them the SAMMI load at 2150 is not as safe and high pressure, they get worried when in fact it is a perfectly SAFE load in almost any 458 as they of often have enough free bore to allow the first shot to be a 458 Lott round and not have any trouble at all.

My first lott was in a classic with 22" barrels. The action was large enough for the 416 Rem mag. So in the good ole days when Winchester was open, I ordered up a 416 magazine box and bolt stop, replaced them and voila 458 Lott. Could it be done with others, I do not know as I did not try it on others. I do know that I loaded hornady round nose softs in lott cases and cycled them in the rifle and they worked fine.I shot them a lott, pun intended, at 2150 and they were all I wanted in that 9 lb rifle. It was a lot of muzzle jump and fire but it worked very well.

LB,
I think we agree on more than we disagree, and this is just us chewing a point over posts...

The weatherby has an african reputation of stuck bolts, due to heat and high pressure... if you load, say at 85, and it's right up there with top pressure, then go where it's 110, it's going to be over pressure.

SAAMI, like all measuring standards, is done at a specified temp... raise the temp, raise the pressure.

So, rather than going with a winmag at 2150 topped out, I can take a lott at 2250, and have headroom... or the 458AR at 2300, and have the same.

jeffe

I certainly agree about working up loads. Africa doesn't have a monopoly on heat. We have been shooting in 105-107* heat for weeks now and if it don't heat up here it won't in Africa. Mostly I think about the 404 Jeffery. I think it is such a great round because it is as effective at a low pressure 2150 f/s as it is at a high pressure 2500-2600 f/s. Just like the Rigby, you can really push it hard as it has plenty of case room. If you want to load it conservatively you must take care as 70-80% load density rounds can be problematic. Low pressure for sure but still effective. I think we confuse personal bias for actual facts. If I can shoot a 500 gr bullet from a win mag at 2100-2150 f/s I am happy and I am sure if it doesn't stick the bolt or lock up the action here, I won't have any problems in Africa and I doubt anyone else will either.

We do agree more than not.

Cool, and we are cool!!

though sometimes our rounds are HOT... at elast it's only been over 100 a couple days in houston, this summer... but at 100% humidity, that's an "heat index" of 135!!!

jeffe

Jeffe:
First, Brass. Is it easy to neck 375 Brass up to the Lott? If so, could you keep the 2.85 length of the 375 case, and get that little extra bit of room, for lower pressures? Is there a reamer that gives you enough extra room for a longer 458 case?

Thanks

Gs
PS I have about 300 rounds of 375 brass, some still loaded.

That's the watts, iirc.. and you can fireform (pistol powder and cornmeal) the 375 right into 458 lott

jeffe

My experience is that 2150fps from a 458wm is very easy to acheive from mid level book loads. My rifle has 26" barrels, which help, but its really easy to go past 2150.

JPK

Jeffe:
Thanks
African Hunter has a good article on the cartridges, and apparently you have to make sure the reamer allows the use of 2.85" Cartridges, otherwise you get super high pressures.

This is going to be a rebore on a 375 H&H barrel, taken from a C550 Safari Magnum.
It's in 375 H&H, so, I expect it will feed just fine. I may stay with the 25" barrel length, just to get the extra velocity, though, from some of the above posts, with 500 grain bullets, the velocity increase seems minimal. Does the Watts allow more powder then the Lott?

If so, how much?

Thanks

GS

There are huge differences in 458 lott chambers, so to catagorically say what a Lott will and won't do depends greatly on what type of chamber is cut. My first lott had a very loose chamber, and a loooong throat. It would take several grains more powder than my latest lott for the same velocity. Also, the Lott case while larger than the 458 win mag, isn't that large of a case for 500 gr bullets. Another way of saying you'll have compressed loads.

I've found I can push 500 gr 2250 with both Varget and RL 15, from a 22" barrel. I've yet to push it to 2300, but have not doubt I could hit it with a 24" tube.

You all do know that if you long throat a .458 win mag chamber and load woodleighs out .25 inches that its easy to hit 2250 fps with WW748. You need to use a cannelure tool to put a new cannelure on the bullets so you can crimp them in place, but the long .458 wins do just fine. I have a nasty looking black Mauser and a Ruger #1 with this conversion.-Rob

Thanks.
However, I'm rebarreling a CZ 550, in 375 H&H, so, it should work just fine with the Lott/Watts length cartridges.-)

GS

I'm trying to digest all of this as I'm currently thinking about a 45 cal stopper. So if one can now SAFELY load a 458 Win Mag to 2150 fps with no problems and from what I gather a Lott's "comfort range" is 2200-2250, what's the Lott's real advantage over a 458 Win Mag? surely not 100 fps? jorge

Not that much difference! But if 2150 fps isn't "enough," what options are there in a skinny case? Pretty much the Lott in an off-the-shelf cartridge, or a wildcat.

Surely the 458WM is enough, but it just doen't have enough recoil to hurt you, so surely it cannot be enough!

And like Rodgunbuilder mentioned and has been discussed many times before, if the throat is long enough, just keep extending the bullet out until you get the velocity you want.

Good points, Will, it's just that its so much easier to build a 458 on a standard action. Hell, if I had my druthers ( and money ) , I'd build a 460 Weatherby on one of those high-dollar Mauser actions and call it a day! Time to ponder some more. jorge

I think the Lott's real advantage is you can get 100fps more then the WM while still operating at low pressures and the fact that you can still shot WM ammo out of it in a pinch.

Well A-Square "says" the magic number is 2400 fps...Go figure....

Heck, we are talking 500 grain bullets...2100 fps is more than enough, although I preferred pushing my 458 Lott to 2250 fps.

When it comes to 458s, the Lott gets my vote. There is no need to seat it out, as mentioned above with the win. mag., and it works all that much better with mono-metals like North Forks and TSXs...but just a bit more case capacity would be nice.

Now if we were talking Wildcats, a 458 cal. based off a 404 Jeffery case would be just about right...a little more case capacity but not a hugh case.....so the rifle will not weigh a ton...heavy rifles ....

My 375 CZ 550 was designed for a 2.85 inch cartridge. I'd be a REAL idiot to go down to the 458 win mag, and give up REALLY reliable feeding.
Plus, bigger case gives faster light bullets, as well. Someone mentioned Ganyana was getting near 3000 fps with a 350 458 boattail. Makes for a nice plans game round, as well. Finally, lower pressure with the Lott is a good thing.

GS

Lots of talk but no load data for the 458 Lott!

Try this (AT YOUR OWN RISK!):

458 lott
500 grain Woodleigh soft
84.0 grains IMR4320
F215 primer

I think you will be pleased with the results. And probably you can go up to 86.0 grains of powder without a pressure problem.

Jorge,

I am limited in the velocity I can get with my 458wm by virtue of it being a double rifle. I can only load what will make the barrels shoot together. My rifle has 26" barrels and 2150 is no issue.

IIRC, the two powders that were easiest to get up there were H4895 and AA2230. I got there at or below the halfway point in the Hornaday manual. Also got 2190fps with the 450gr North Fork at midlin' levels and this load I had pressure tested. I'm sure it could be pushed much faster in a bolt, but 2190 was the limit so far as getting it to shoot well in my rifle. I think H335 would also be good to try.

If you find a good used 458wm, snatch it up and be happy. If you are going to build or buy a new rifle then it makes all the sense to go with the Lott.

JPK

There aint no thing like

quote:

hydrodynamic shock

in killing ability. use the 500gr at even .458Win mag ballistics, (2150 pushing it), and with proper shot placement, you will have a very dead lion, or whatever.

Hi Gerald

Just been working up some Lott loads for an article in African Hunter. I own a standard Winchester M70 and also used A CZ 550 (with it's long 25" barrel for comparison).

Hornady factory ammo, Superior and Safari Arms ammo all throw 500 grn bullets out of my winchester at just over 2300fps and out of the CZ at 2350+ Pressures seem acceptable. Obviously the hornady FMJ bullets are easier to drive to this velocity than the two custom loaders who use Barnes Monolithics.

Playing with South African Powders...

80 grns of S321 drives a 500grn Barnes super solid out of my Winchester at 2310fps

81grns S321 drives a regular old Hornady 500grn FMJ at the same speed. NB- this is not a compressed charge.

I played with S335 and got the same "average" but with 100fps variation over 5 rounds. This was a heavily compressed charge.

85grns Reloader 12 gives me 2300fps with a 500grn Barnes super solid and so does 81.5grns of H -4895.

Personally I have opted for the Barnes 450grn solids and X bullets. I can drives these to 2300fps happily with 80grns S321. The charge behind the solids is not compressed but it is under the longer tripple shock X bullets. Out of the CZ the same load gives almost 2400fps.In either rifle there was no mesurable case head expansion.

NB2- I am using the newer barnes solids with the groved bearing surface - like your own bullets. Regular old style round nosed Barnes solids gave me 50fps less.

For lion and buff I want an impact velocity above 2250fps. My Lott will do this, and at reasonable pressures.

I have sent a batch of ammo of to be properly pressure tested before I publish the results in the magazine.

For some Humor, I turned down some 400grn Barnes X (old style) making them into a boat tail weiging 305grns. Out of the CZ I could launch these at 3000fps (2850 from the winchester). Makes a fair 200m plains game load

Two thoughts, one is that the 458 win mag can push some 500 gr bullets 2150 with a few powders. The 458 lott can push all 500 gr bullets 2150+ with a huge selection of powders. So comparing what the absolute best the 458 win mag can do with a 24-26" barrel to a 22" lott under average conditions is apples to oranges.

I believe by haven't seen specs to confirm that the 458 win mag pressure data is in chambers with long throats, and for whatever reason the Saami spec lott chamber has a short throat.

The lott with no muss or fuss, no magic powders, no special bullets, and no long barrels will easily achieve 2150-2200 fps. Most folks have no problem hitting 2300 fps. Some folks report higher velocities, but IMHO, that's pushing it.

It's like comparing a 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton pickup. The 1/2 ton can be loaded up, but the chassis, brakes and everything else aren't up to day in day out heavy loads.

My first big bore was a .458 WinMag.
Finn Aagaard showed us how to Lott-load the .458 WinMag long ago.

The standard .458 WinMag has no parallel-sided free bore, but it has a sloppy wide funnel throat that has a diameter of 0.469" at the case mouth and tapers down over about one inch of run for full reduction to land diameter.

This is a zero-freebore-sloppy-funnel-all-leade LONG THROAT.

No special throating is required to LONG-LOAD or Lott-load a standard .458 WinMag, unless it is some special, custom, tight-throated one.

The standard CZ .458 WinMag with its long box will deliver more velocity with the 500 grain TSX than a .458 Lott in a Winchester M70 can do with the same bullet. It is a very long bullet with 5 cannelures to pick from. Similarly, the .458 Lott in a CZ box makes the .458 Express 3-Inch a no-need.

No special throating of the CZ .458 WinMag must be done.

I call these ".458 WinMag Long Nose" loads in a CZ 550 Magnum.

Yes, the .458 WinMag rides again. If a 450 grain North Fork soft or solid at 2300 fps can be acheived in a .30-06 length action, as we claim, that's a winner too.

Two options to make the .458 WinMag "The Champ"
again.

I have a 458 Lott with Granite mountain action and Danny Pederson cut rifle barrel 21 inches long and I get 2250 with factory Hornady and with reloads of R-15 74 grains I get 2200 fps with 500 grain bullets. These velocities are recorded on an Oehlar chrono with screens set on four feet, thus the chrono is giving accurate readings.