this year a gunsmith dave clay is going to make a marlin lever action that will do 525 grains @2150...

he made the reamer a couple years ago, he calls it the 50 texan.

it is a shortened 50-110 case (2.3") or .2" longer than the 50 alaskan.

it takes a lot of smithing but about $2,000 later you will have a stomping rifle that will shoot 50 alaskan as well

cant wait to hear the developments...

I wonder what the pressure is and if the cases will stick in hot weather.

But the ballistics sound good.

Dave Clay has already built a mud stomper of a lever gun round based on a full length .50-110 necked down to a .458 pushing a 500gr bullet at 2300 fps.

That round was fed in the 1886 action. In case any of you guys haven't met Dave or seen his work. He does really nice work on bolt guns as well as custom lever guns.

He's done three .458 Lotts for me and friends. And is doing some really nice rifles with Ashley Emerson of the AO sight fame called the Adventure Rifle series they are serious no crap stainless, synthetic rifles in .30-06, .375H&H, .458Lott and other useful calibers (no tourist crap) with an upgraded protected ear version of Ashley's ghost ring sights. A no B.S. rifle for no B.S. hunting conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I wonder what the pressure is and if the cases will stick in hot weather.

But the ballistics sound good.

to be determined...

it would only appeal to lever wildcat cowboys like me but appeal it does...

quote:

Dave Clay has already built a mud stomper of a lever gun round based on a full length .50-110 necked down to a .458 pushing a 500gr bullet at 2300 fps.

that sounds awesome too...

how is the recovery going?

also thought it would be cool to shoot regular rifle bullets stuffed in the 50 alaskan case @ slower velocities...would 570 gr. tsx's open up @ 1800 fps?



or maybe lob these...

quote:

I wonder what the pressure is and if the cases will stick in hot weather.

the preasure would be in the high 40's psi...

according to dave the the marlin maxes out at 65,000 psi

he also said extraction was fine at those preasures.

i was verrrry careful not to mention africa or d.g. as not to stir the pot...

BS,

Your in the states just source a repro 1886 and get dave to just do a 50-110...................much easier, better resale, less pressure and you get that level of power your after.

I used the profile Dave Clay uses for his 50-110's on 1886's on my 50-110 barrel, made it easier for my smith to use some ideas Dave had already figured out.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

i was verrrry careful not to mention africa or d.g. as not to stir the pot...

Aha! You are now the first one to mention Africa and DG in this thread. My reference to hot weather was concerning jackrabbit hunting in July.

DAMN! you tricked me...

i thought for sure your refference was strong enough

you must have some big rabbits there in utah

Not sure what is meant by "maxes out," but there is no way the Marlin 1895 can handle a steady diet of 65K psi loads without courting disaster. As the old saying goes, somethin's gotta give.

Sounds like an interesting experiment, though. If the loads are kept to 40K psi (as are the high test .45-70s designed for use in the Marlin), one would think that it ought to be okay. But better you than me behind it when the trigger is pulled!

The only rifle that has ever truly hurt me is my light weight Marlin 1895 with Garrett-type high test loads.

yes recoil is an issue...

i would want a heavy barrel and a good recoil pad.

yes a steady diet of 60ish thousand psi would wear out the gun he said but he said the high 40's is fine. even marlin says 43,000...

this gun would be a 50 a.k. rifle for the most i would think with the ability to do much more.

the regular rifle bullets makes this and awesome versitile gun...

heeeere piggy piggy piggy...

quote:

But better you than me behind it when the trigger is pulled!

he is also working on a "recoiless 50" the 50-110 in a browning b.a.r. and a special muzzle brake that would recoil like a 22 capable of using pointed rifle bullets

That ought to clean out the ole sinuses.

I printed this thread and posted it on a fence post outside.....I haven't seen a jack rabbit since.

There was a bit of dust over the hill as I recall.

.

i think a aftermarket loop lever would be in order...

or electrical tape...

Boom Stick,
Let me know when you start shooting bullets across a Chronograph!

those numbers are per david clay, a great guy and well respected gunsmith.

i would love to have and shoot one but i have another iron in the fire i need to finish...

i am just reporting but i know messengers are not popular

i will keep in touch with him and will post his progress though he said he would not get to it till late fall.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Dave Clay has already built a mud stomper of a lever gun round based on a full length .50-110 necked down to a .458 pushing a 500gr bullet at 2300 fps.

that sounds awesome too...

how is the recovery going?

From what I hear it is quite awesome to pull the trigger on!

The recovery....

A bit of a set back here recently but thanks for asking.

Do you know Dave?

He is within 55 years of so of the 450 and 50 Alaskan cartridges, Model 71's shooting necked-up 348 Win cases, which was based on the full-length 50-110/105/100 all the same case shooting 300gr/350gr/450gr RFN bullets. Before Starline got in to the 50-110 case business we 1886 and Hiwall guys had to neck up 348 brass. They are the same length, and the oal is 2.4". OAL on a loaded round max for the 1886 is 2.75". I am curious as to what the point of his shorty version is, since the loaded oal will have to be that same 2.75" or less. If he stays with the original case you do not have to pay a couple hundred dollars for custom dies, plus the hassle of trimming cases. It would seem he is just making a shorter verion which at the velocities he claims equates to very high pressure. I shoot the bullet weight and velocity he is talking in a Hiwall and it is S-T-O-U-T, even in my 15 pound rifle. It gets ugly in my 1886 at 2000fps. Invest in a mercury recoil reducer and a kick-eeze pad for it, and get a demerol prescription from your favorite physician ahead of time.
Just a bit of perspective from SW Idaho, cause we been down that road.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
those numbers are per david clay, a great guy and well respected gunsmith.

What powder charge does he use to push 525 grains to 2150 fps at only 40,000 psi out of a 2.3 inch case?

quote:

What powder charge does he use to push 525 grains to 2150 fps at only 40,000 psi out of a 2.3 inch case?

i'll have to ask...

he said it would run in the high 40's like 47,000

quote:

From what I hear it is quite awesome to pull the trigger on!

The recovery....

A bit of a set back here recently but thanks for asking.

Do you know Dave?

sorry to hear about the setback...

have you been able to shoot anything even the light stuff?

i dont know him but i talked to him a couple of times...you can tell hes just a cool cat, kinda like someone you would like to have a beer with.

I'd be real interested in seeing a load that will send a .50 caliber bullet , 525 grs at 2150 fps at 47KPSI. My trusty 500 S&W will only push a 400 gr bullet to 1900 fps at a true 65KPSI. My .405 winchester went to 57 Kpsi with a 410 gr bullet and 1950 fps. I'd be very suspicious of those claims. More importantly, a Marlin lever gun at 65 Kpsi? One shot then kaboom!-Rob.

we'll, we will find out when he puts it together...

he made the 50-110 work in the marlin but feeding was not good. the shortening of .1" makes it work so i know it is possible and like i said 65 is max and not good for the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


sorry to hear about the setback...

have you been able to shoot anything even the light stuff?

i dont know him but i talked to him a couple of times...you can tell hes just a cool cat, kinda like someone you would like to have a beer with.

I am shooting my .375H&H with no real problems. I shot my buddies .458Lott a month ago and didn't have any problems but I only fired it a couple of times. I haven't tried any heavy stuff since then. All of my heavies are out. Dave has got my .458Lott and Butch has my .470NE.

Probably a good thing!

My left arm and hand has remained numb and I am starting to get some throbbing pain in my fingers again. I go in for ANOTHER MRI next week.

I am back to work and did a 6 day Asian trip I think sitting in an airplane for 28 hours may have had something to do with it. But who knows.



I've been back hunting several times in TX and have shot some 15 or 20 hogs this year. I am primarily using my .pre 64 .358. Shooting hasn't been a problem even the .375 has not caused any problems.

As far as this new .50 Dave is talking about. I haven't heard anything about it, but doesn't the .50 AK sling a 500gr bullet at about 2000FPS?

I have shot one but I can't remember the particulars on it. I have a .45-70 1895CB that Dave did for me he cut it to 22†slicked up the action and the trigger installed a recoil pad and soldered all the joints the feed tube and melted all the rough edges off. That rifle eats a regular diet of 405gr bullets @ 1900FPS with no problems. It also shots inside of 2†at 100 yards. It is my cool tool saddle gun for elk season when I feel the need to be western. Dave does nice work with lever guns.

As far as pushing a 525 at 2150 out of a 2.5" case that does sound a bit optimistic

I guess if you like to tinker and experiment from the sublime to the ridiculous, these kinds of mental masturbations are fine. But as mrlexma says, something's going to give and for the life of me why some people so dogmatically keep insisting of using a weak, outdated design that is the lever action for serious DG hunting is beyond my capability to comprehend. jorge

dave described the things he does to make the gun handle that power. maybe i will see if i can get him to post here and comment on it. remember, he already made it work with the 50-110...he is just shortening it a bit to feed reliably.

he said his goal was 2100 to 2150 and i do think it is doable but not for the faint of heart.

if i had one i would primarily shoot 50 alaskan with the mix or regular rifle bullets and the w.f.n. hard cast.

Jorge,

It all boils down to gunnuteristis. Just like some guys are queer for Weatherbys, some for Mausers others for doubles there is a group of people out there who are all wack daddy for lever guns.

I hang out with a few of them down in Texas. While I can appreciate a nicely done lever gun for it's historical (read American West) value and it's ease of carry and handling qualities especially in and out of a saddle scabbard.

I don't try and make them into something they are not.

Just like you shouldn't put 38" AT tires on a Ford Pinto. It just ain't right!

man...surestrike...how did you know!?!?!





good analogy...

i am 1/4 redneck, 1/4 trailer trash and 1/2 cowboy so go figure...

i told dave about the thread here so hopefully he will chime in.

Jorge,

try not to take this too personally, but out here in the West we mostly save the rehtoric for things we K-N-O-W do not work. If the notion to hunt brown/ploar bear in Alaska, by the way either one will have the average Cape Buffalo down and dead in less than 10 seconds from saying "sic 'em", ever strikes you; nine out of tem native alaskan guides you meet will be packing an 1895. That's why Marlin makes the "Guide Gun" model that is so popular there. 45-70 with factory 400gr loads at 1900fps deal with anything you might ever meet. Noted Idaho gunwriter Brian Pearce had to buy an extra Cape Buffalo tag two years ago after his home brewed cast bullet load (500gr bullet at 1800fps) shot thru a nice 43" bull and killed a 35" cow standing 10 feet behind it. They never did find the bullet. It might also interest you to know that Winchester had trouble during the 20-year run of Model 1876's filling orders for the 50-95 chambered models for British subalterns posting to India and Africa. It seems they were very potent medicine for everything shy of Elephant and the ten shots available in ten seconds or less were very comforting when facing dangerous game. It is a not-too-subtle form of snobbery to even suggest that a properly chambered M1886 or M1895 lever rifle chambered for 50-110 or the equivalent is not more than enough rifle for anything in the DGR lineup anywhere in the world. I would suggest that a careful reading of Bell's book and other might show that more elephant and other dangerous game have been killed with sub-35 calibre rifles from 1895 to the present in Africa. Lastly, bows and arrows and spears seemed to have worked for thousands of years before you appeared on this green earth to educate us.

regards,

Rich

PS: you all may consider this an open invitation to try out my 1886 50-110 VS any boltgun you may have access to and see how the two stack up for penetration and speed for five shots into a 36" chunk of freshly cut tamarack.

Surestrike: "Queer" for Weatherbys? Man I hope you don't think that!

Idaho: Thanks for that enlightening lesson, but I wasn't trying to "educate" anybody. This is a FORUM, where people share OPINIONS and I think I couched my post as mostly a matter of personal preference.

I was aware of the Winchester and a few Brits, and I have zero experience with Alaskan Guides, but surely your statement that the majority use 45/70 Guide Guns is purely anecdotal, same goes for the buffalo vs bear grudge match. With that in mind, I'll throw in a "puny" 450pound lion that'll have any bear wearing a dress and singing "Mary had a Little Lamb" in no time flat. That last statement BTW is pure conjecture on my part.

Regardless, to me a 400gr 45 @ 1900 fps isn't what I call "Cape Buffalo Medicicine" especially when the 458 Win with a 500gr bullet of higher SD, has issues at 1900 fps. It just doesn't add up.

If levers were the cat's meow, it would be the weapon of choice world wide, including the US and it's obviously not and certainly not for dangerous game and I include the big bears.

Granted, bears are softer skinned than buffalo, but I just don't see it in the same league as even a 375 H&H. Also, I think that all things being equal, a properly tuned and fitted mauser-type action is more reliable than a lever. In the reliability department, levers don't even come close, not to mention the fact they can't handle the same pressures as bolt guns.

A few years ago Craig Boddington in one of his books, polled african PHs as to their predilection for personal DG rifles. The overwhelming majority used a Mauser or a derivative. It would be interesting to see a similar poll of Alaskan Brown bear guides.

Lastly, like Surestrike said, to *me* a lever in africa is akin to that photograph of that hideous Pinto. I'm not here to educate anybody, but I guess I flunk the obsolete-cartridge-lever-action-is-as-good-as-a-modern-caliber-for-africa-test. I'll concede the point of speed, but penetration? That would be interesting...And I sure don't understand the bows and arrows analogy. Are they as good also? jorge

quote:

Also, I think that all things being equal, a properly tuned and fitted mauser-type action is more reliable than a lever.

reliability is a lever actions synonym...

reliability is why a lot of people use them...

not slinging mud but i think you are misinformed.


3 entries found for reliable.
re·li·a·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-l-bl)
adj.
1)Capable of being relied on; dependable: a reliable assistant; a reliable car.
2)Yielding the same or compatible results in different clinical experiments or statistical trials.
3)Lever actuated rifles, see Marlin Guide Gun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re·lia·bili·ty or re·lia·ble·ness n.
re·lia·bly adv.
Synonyms: reliable, dependable, responsible, trustworthy, trusty, levergun
These adjectives mean worthy of reliance or trust: as reliable as a levergun: a reliable source of information; a dependable worker; a responsible babysitter; a trustworthy report; a trusty alarm



also flat nose "solids" are the best penetrating bullet design. that is why the slower speed works as good as a faster soft or round nose... see rips iron buffalo threads. a flat nose solid can make up for a few hundred feet per second on other designs.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/MM0506/MM0506.html

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

re·lia·bili·ty or re·lia·ble·ness n.
re·lia·bly adv.
Synonyms: reliable, dependable, responsible, trustworthy, trusty, levergun
These adjectives mean worthy of reliance or trust: as reliable as a levergun: a reliable source of information

TOO funny boom!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for what guides carry in Alaska, I'm not able to comment, fully. However I've small knowledge that, the 1895 in Scovill & Hawk carts are used. Also Wild West Guns, seem to be doing alright with their Modified Marlins.

i know this subject can make the

so we need to have SOME levity...

the main issue with lever guns is preasure (browning blr exemped)

with large straight walled cases it can pack a wallop though

reading this article can be enlightening if you are not familiar with a levergun or the marlin guide gun

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/MM0506/MM0506.html

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I'd be real interested in seeing a load that will send a .50 caliber bullet , 525 grs at 2150 fps at 47KPSI.

Rob,
that would be 500 jeffery pressure.. as well as case.

Boom,
I have no doubt that this could be done.. but try some PMC or Garrett heavy loads in a 45/70 longer before you put money down on a that 50

I just have a hard time believing that a 525 grain bullet can be pushed 2150 fps out of a 2.3 inch case with only 47000 psi pressure.

Did Mr. Clay actually measure the pressure, is that a WAG?