i have!

i love shooting the +p+ loads

thats why i cant wait to shoot the 470 a.r.

You measured the pressure yourself?

nooooooooo...

i am sure he is estimating off the performance of the 50-110.

we'll just have to wait and see...

cant we all just get along???...

I knew it wouldn't be long before this turned in to a shit slinging contest with all the old metaphors we've come to know and love.

Jorge' if you will provide the ring I'll supply 10 rabid, leftist, fuzzy legged, tree huggers chicks from Boulder. Idaho you supply the Grizzlies and the cape buffalo. Boom Stick you bring your Marlin.

Once they are all intermingled and embroiled in mortal combat you can decide which species is the most dangerous and shoot it. If it dies we will all agree once and for all that the Marlin is the end all be all DGR stopper rifle.

I think that this is the only sensible way we are ever going to solve this lever gun/ most dangerous game issue once and for all!

After all this is a VERY important issue and should be taken serious..

LOL Surestrike!! Damn that's funny! Here we go again.....

So are ya gonna use MATCH KINGS in yer new artillery piece?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/63510355/p/1

Those who forget the past are comdemned to repeat it. Only 34 pages to go.

Let the games begin..................

ZM

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
. . . that photograph of that hideous Pinto.

Don't knock that Pinto; it isn't what Boomstick wants you to think. Those aren't A/T tires, those are slicks. It's a drag car and V-8 or 2.3L Turbo-powered Pintos have a demonstrated "track record" of being equal to their competition. Unlike the lever gun.

Here's the problem with traditional lever actions. In addition to having to fire heavy recoiling rounds without having the forearm, magazine tube, and various other parts shaking loose and falling off, gunsmiths are going to have to overcome the much weaker primary extraction of the lever gun. After all, that's one reason why the Win. M1887/1901 lever shotgun failed in the marketplace. It couldn't extract swollen paper shotshells and was UNRELIABLE because of it. Pump shotguns share this problem to a lesser extent. That's why the U.S. military used brass shotshells in combat shotguns during WWII. Unlike the old waxed paper shotshells which will absorb moisture, brass wouldn't absorb moisture and swell in the humid and hot South Pacific and could be reliably extracted.

I'm all for nostalgia. I have three lever guns myself. I like hunting with them. But there's nothing nostalgic or even practical about trying to turn a lever gun into DG rifle. I don't doubt that with enough money and time it can be done. But let's face it, you're about 100 years too late. Paul Mauser came up with the answer in 1898.

Unlike that Pinto, you've lost the race.

Surestrike: You are right once again and I apologize for even intruding into this post. Your initial observation of "gunnutitis" was spot on and I should have recognized it as that. After that, it was just like you say a pissing contest, but sometimes it's hard to leave things unchallenged or that just because an individual comes from a certain geographical area of the country, their knowledge must be regarded as coming from the burning bush. Like you alluded to, people should just go out and DO what they profess, then we can try to have a reasonable discussion. On this topic however, it's wishfull thinking.

China Fleet Sailor, great post, but a Pinto's still a Pinto... jorge

I'll just have to wait on my Safari Classic Alaskan Guide Gun to shoot those magical wide meplats Super penetrator 500 grain, 2150 FPS, KATW Bullets.


Sorry, couldn't resist!

How about taking the "ol Robgunbuilder" FINAL CHALLENGE with the mighty Marlin. You know, firing three PROOF LOADS! If the Marlin is really rated at 65KPSI then it aught to stay together after firing three 85KPSI Proof loads. To keep it honest we can use quick load to produce the Proof loads and publish them. I may also be able to get the pressures verified by HP White. I'll bring the tire, string and videocamera and you bring the gun. If it survives, which I doubt, the Marlin gets to be a DGR officially, If not, then your only out a few hundred bucks.
By the way, I did this years ago with Mausers, springfields, a T99 etc. Guns that were supposed to take it. There were a few surprises! This cou;ld be done at your Band of Bubbas initiation. Not in lieu of the initiation, just bas part of it!-Rob

boomstick,

I am just trying to figure out whether the ballistics and pressures quoted in this thread are real or fantasy. A 2.3 inch case does not hold a lot of powder, which gives rise to my skepticism. If someone has actually measured the velocity and pressure and will divulge the load, I am sure that would lend some legitimacy to this. But better yet, fire some proof loads through it as Rob suggested. And if a guy has confidence in his Marlin, there is no need to tie it to a tire.

this is not a pissing contest thread...

i just was informing the peanut gallery about a gunproject that interests me and i am sure a few others...

i know that 500@ 2150 treads on some holy ground here
but is it taboo to say that a levergun CANT do it when it has!

so lets not fall into the africa d.g. vortex...

we are simply talking about a lever gun that is pimped out that i think is neeto.

one mans suped up pinto may be ugly and horrid to others but the owner of that pinto can do the quarted mile in the same 12 seconds as the porsche...yes the porsche will get you the chicks and has style but the pinto still got there the same time.

to each his own

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
boomstick,

I am just trying to figure out whether the ballistics and pressures quoted in this thread are real or fantasy. A 2.3 inch case does not hold a lot of powder, which gives rise to my skepticism. If someone has actually measured the velocity and pressure and will divulge the load, I am sure that would lend some legitimacy to this. But better yet, fire some proof loads through it as Rob suggested. And if a guy has confidence in his Marlin, there is no need to tie it to a tire.

we will have to wait and see...

he already has done the 50-110 but wants to shorten it. i will keep in touch with him and will keep the masses (some unwashed like me) informed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
How about taking the "ol Robgunbuilder" FINAL CHALLENGE with the mighty Marlin. You know, firing three PROOF LOADS! If the Marlin is really rated at 65KPSI then it aught to stay together after firing three 85KPSI Proof loads. To keep it honest we can use quick load to produce the Proof loads and publish them. I may also be able to get the pressures verified by HP White. I'll bring the tire, string and videocamera and you bring the gun. If it survives, which I doubt, the Marlin gets to be a DGR officially, If not, then your only out a few hundred bucks.
By the way, I did this years ago with Mausers, springfields, a T99 etc. Guns that were supposed to take it. There were a few surprises! This cou;ld be done at your Band of Bubbas initiation. Not in lieu of the initiation, just bas part of it!-Rob

it is of the opinion of the forementioned smith that 65,00 psi IS max...

when it is done it would be a good idea if he could go to a bubba shoot although i cant speak for him but he does live in texas.

the marlin is what it is... it is not "magical" and i am not an irrational true believer. the marlin is a fun, reliable, quick shooting gun that the owners love. and it is also fun to look down on it when you have "superior" guns... the levergun is kinda regarded here like randy quaid in the movie "vacation" as a pathetic poor no class hick

I think the pressure will be more than what he thinks. However I also think you'll find the Marlins will take more pressure than you think. I have a gunsmith friend who specializes in Marlin big bore levers, mostly .50AK. He has built some in full power .308 Winchester loads with no problems. In the very near future, we are going to hook up my pressure trace to one of the 336's and load it till it lets go, just so we know once and for all. He has a couple of actions to donate to this cause and will post the results on his website as well. He is of the opinion as well that they will hold till 80000 psi. It will be fun at least to destroy one in a controlled environment.

Proof loads will tell the truth. Everything else is just talk! I'm open to discovering the Marlin is stronger than I think, I just want to see proof! With that said, my money is on its scattering its remains all over Texas with the first 85 Kpsi Proof load. By the way ,if its max proof is 65 KPSI, Id be very leery of firing routine loads even approaching 50 KPSI. I've seen 30 percent pressure spikes from just coper fouling of a barrel.-Rob

anyone got a marlin they want to donate???

not mine...

marlin says 43000 psi and dave does some work to make it stronger by rethreading the barrel and receiver...

like i said when its done i'll keep you posted. remember its been done with the 50-110 already...

cant we all just get along

Sucks hard to be the messanger, eh, boom!

bs,

Just trying to figure out if 525 grains at 2150 fps is reality or B.S. Not trying to fight. Just asking if it is reality or not.

I have a Marlin 45/70 in excellant condition. I will donate it to the project. Just tell me where to send it for the proofing.

Time to walk the walk! Enough BS conjecture!
Let's see it done!

way to go rusty...

it would be a shame to ruin a perfectly good marlin.

i would rather see it go to this kid.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8721043/m/314107005

to be fair it would have to be converted to the M.F.H. (marlin from hell) unless you want to see how much preasure a regular marlin can take...

it is not worth it to me to spend $2000 to make a great gun and then try to blow it up @ 85,000psi. remember dave makes the regular marlin stronger first.

if you have any serious questions give dave a call but remember his time is money

David Clay
DRC Armaments
4201 E. Renfro Rd.
Alvarado, TX 76009
1-817-783-6099

Huh?

I thought the Marlin could take it. If you think it will blow, then the proposed ballistics should be scaled back. OK, just giving you a hard time.

Do you know what modifications Mr. Clay makes to the threads which increase the amount of pressure a Marlin can take? Intuitively it would seem that removing metal would weaken the rifle, so there must be more to it than that.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Huh?

I thought the Marlin could take it. If you think it will blow, then the proposed ballistics should be scaled back. OK, just giving you a hard time.



Do you know what modifications Mr. Clay makes to the threads which increase the amount of pressure a Marlin can take? Intuitively it would seem that removing metal would weaken the rifle, so there must be more to it than that.

he described the work he did in some detail but i am not much of an expert to explain it except that the new barrel and receiver get some threading done as well as some welding ect.

grains...being a lawyer you might have more disposable cash to make a m.f.h. for fun and safari

Several years back, a man I know tested the Winchester 94, Marlin 336, and Winchester 92 actions at 65,000 psi. The purpose of this test was to consider the possibility of chambering any of these rifles for the .454 Casull.

None of the rifles blew, but none lasted very long either. The fired between 10 and 40 shots in each, stopping when the head space opened up too much. The Winchester 92 (modern steel) lasted the longest, but eventually the locking lugs peened and the head space grew.

So the man in question determined that these actions will not take the .454 cartridge.

A few years latter, Rossi began selling a Winchester 92 copy in .454 Casull. They sell them every day and, apparently, they work just fine. These guns are factory lever actions that handle 65,000 psi all day long.

FWIW

Remember its not just pressure. The larger the case head the higher the force against the bolt at any pressure. Thats why the .454 casull works.-Rob

You are, of course, right.

But remember that the initial tests said that the lever actions in question were not up to the .454.

But Rossi found a way to make it work. Could some additional research make it possible to up the head thrust even further?

I'm no expert, but it does seem that tomorrow's experts are often today's wild eyed idots.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
this is not a pissing contest thread...

i just was informing the peanut gallery about a gunproject that interests me and i am sure a few others...

Boomstick,

What I'm trying to figure out is "why?" I can have a rational discussion with someone over the relative merits of a bolt vs. double rifle. What is the M.F.H. actually supposed to do better than other types of rifles? You can get a faster second shot off with a lever gun over a bolt, but not as fast as a double, semi-auto, or pump. The lever is a lot slower than those. Lower cost than the double? Yeah, but a custom semi-auto or pump would come in for about the same price as the M.F.H. The .458 Garand already exists ( http://www.gokart.net/shop-utopia/mccann/rifles/458garand/458garand.html ). If carrying a semi-auto isn't a legal option then it seems to me that a rebarrelled Browning Pump rifle would be a better choice. It was chambered in .300 WinMag from the factory, so I already know it can take high pressures. Rebarrelling and chambering it to .458 WinMag sounds like it could be done a lot easier than building the M.F.H. And a pump gun is so much faster than a lever it's not a contest.

quote:

and it is also fun to look down on it when you have "superior" guns... the levergun is kinda regarded here like randy quaid in the movie "vacation" as a pathetic poor no class hick

Whenever anyone points out the hurdles of taking a Marlin lever action and turning into a DGR, Marlin fans always assume we're snobs attacking the "average working man." Well, we're not talking about deer rifles anymore. I use lever guns for deer. 525 grains @ 2150 fps isn't actually needed for anything other than dangerous African game. If the "average working man" needs such a rifle he can walk out of a gun store with a .458 Win Mag bolt rifle for less than $1000 including tax. Why should he spend a couple of grand on top of buying the Marlin in the first place? That's money that could have been used to pay for the hunt so he could actually use the rifle.

You're talking about a $3000 + custom rifle here, assuming that a gunsmith can actually produce it. It's not a blue collar gun anymore. What do you get that makes it worth that much money? Double rifle fans can tell me exactly why their guns cost the money they do and why they are worth it. A $3000 lever gun that's going to be used as a working rifle and not a wall-hanging art piece also should be able to stand on its merits.

bs,

The only gun I have blown up is a 6.5 Jap. I loaded it with a full case of Bullseye, a CCI 250 primer, put an obstruction in the barrel, tied it to a tree and pulled the trigger with a string. The interesting thing is that the action did not blow. The bottom metal blew out and the extraction flew away. Stock cracked. But the action held just fine. A friend of mine knocked on the action with a hammer for a while and it opened up again. The barrel was undamaged. There were no powder burns coming back out of the action, so the shooter would only have suffered a splinter from the stock, if that. Keep in mind that the Arisaka rifles are just a M98 variant.

If I had a way to measure pressure, I would gladly inch up the loads until a Marlin blows. (Don't Marlins blow right from the factory?? )

500 Grains: I've seen the strength of the Arisaka rifles. Back in 1970, at the USAF Marksmanship School, on Lackland AFB, San Antonio, TX, we took a Springfield 03A3, an M98 Mauser, and a Jap Arisaka (blossom bolt) and tried to verify P.O. Ackley's comments about strong actions. The testing was done in our test tunnel to ensure safety. The Arisaka beat the other two by a wide margin...although the M98 did come in second.

I too tried the explosive decomposition test on a 1903 springfield(high number) a M98 and a Arisaka T99. Same results as everyone else reported. The Arisaka is hell for stout! If you have ever machined a Arisaka, the metal they used cuts more like 4340 than anything else and is relatively soft even after heat treatment.
As far as the Marlin from hell goes, I really don't care what it costs, the challenge is out there for your gunsmith. Fire 3 85kpsi proof loads and provide headspace measurements before and after. Boomstick you need to realize that a whole lot of modern bolt actions would not survive that test and if you need 65Kpsi to launch a 525gr bullet at 2150 then that gun has to be able to take pressure spikes at least 30% over operating pressure. Again, a Smith & Wesson, .500 runs a true 65KPSI and wont launch a 400 gr bullet at 2150 even through a 20 inch barrel. The .405 win will only hit 2150 with a 410 gr bullet( borerider) at 57-60 KPSI and its now made of modern steel and was designed for the 30-06 and .270 win in the first place. Taking a Marlin designed for 45Kpsi loads and basically trying to double the working pressure limits is a fine experiment, but with pretty predictable results. By the way, the strength of the Marlin action in nmy opinion is limited by its basic design ( locking surfaces, etc.) more than by the quality or heat treating of the steel used. I'm betting on a big kaboom or if not that dramatic a lot of LOOSE pieces falling out! This is all just for the sake of discussion and I am impling nothing personal at all. If it works, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.-Rob

This rifle will get longer every time it's fired.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Even if it stayed in one piece, I'll bet it will kick the living snot out of you. Or as Ray used to say, "will slap the chew right out of your mouth"--or something to that effect.

Jorge, the lion vs bear has been done back when california was young. The lions didnt last long enough to make the huge cost even remotely interesting.

Interesting stuff. I have a Marlin 1895GS in .45-70 and that can be a 'little' hard on the fingers with the heavier loads. Somewhere a while back, I saw some info on one that had been rechambered for the .500 S&W Ctg. Can't recall where though. Has anyone else seen something or info along that line?

African Lions in california? You certainly don't mean the mountain lion do you? that limp wristed pussycat doesn't even approach an african lion in size or fiercenss. jorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_lion

http://www.prehistory.com/panthera.htm

well there WAS the american lion. 25% larger than the african lion.

anyone got a time machine?

i have seen the bones of one at the la brea tar pits. the paws were HUGE!

quote:

This rifle will get longer every time it's fired.

That's the key! You just have to make it strong enough to stay together, then keep shooting those 85k loads until the barrel is long enough to give 2150fps, then back off a grain or two.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

This rifle will get longer every time it's fired.

That's the key! You just have to make it strong enough to stay together, then keep shooting those 85k loads until the barrel is long enough to give 2150fps, then back off a grain or two.

Bob

Best yet!