i hesitate to post here as i dont agree with the most owerfull load wins. i rather like the bigger bore and throttled down loads as i love shooting and the dentist gets enough of my hard earned money as is.

awhile ago i posted my ruger with the holes in the muzzel to ward off the heavy felt recoil but the dang thing nearly took my hearing away when i shot without muffs to see what i could expect in the field. so i cut off the offending holes and started to experiment with loads that would not only shoot good but would leave my teeth in place.

what a sweet rifle i wound up with. i now have a larger bore that will handle the 300 minimum gr bullets i like. i shoot 300 gr hornadys at around 2000 fps and can shoot it all day long and the accuracy as you can see is first rate for the yardage i kill stuff at. its a boat/wheeler gun that is lite and portable enough so as to not get tangled in with brush or handlebars or boat stuff.

so here she is compared with my short 444 that it took the place of

so there it is. hope all comes thru ok. i rarely shoot anything further then 50 to 75 yards and this is ample power and accuracy for the job at hand in my little corner of the universe

Right on!
I have one also, and use just 76 gr. IMR4350 with the 300 gr. Hornady for about 2,300 FPS. It shoot's plenty flat for my use and is fairly mild to shoot. I chopped of the barrel to just 17", and it handles great. I also threw away the Hogue 'eraser' stock, and installed a standard Ruger plastic 'all weather stock, which cut the weight a bit, and is much slimmer then the alaskan stock.
Mine wears a Leupold 2.5 power scope, which also helps cut size and weight. Congrat's! Great little gun.

quote:

i shoot 300 gr hornadys at around 2000 fps

You are firing 375H&H design bullets at 30-06 power levels. I wonder how that will perform?

Do you think the 300 gr bullet is the best choice for hunting with such a reduced load? I see at lot loads listed in similar power ctgs like 338/06, 35whelen and 375/06 tend be be with a bit light bullet at higher velocity. Say 250 grains at 2400 fps.


You could try 270 gr at 2400 fps, seems more promising than a 300 grainer loafing along at 2,000?

For you application - I suggest asking DWright for his stock and getting a Ruger Compact in 308. That is 16.5 inch bbl @ 5.75 pounds and fires a proven load.

Hello Ted,
I wish that you won't post stuff like this about your .375 Ruger..
I have been fighting the urge to buy one of these little rifles for going on two years now and I found a used one at decent price just yesterday..
I would load mine just like you are doing 300gr. around 2000-2100fps but use cast bullets..
I drug a little 9.3X62 CZ550FS out of my safe yesterday to load up with some 310gr cast bullets at the same exact vel.
If a 9.3/300gr. at 2100fps will "do it" then your .375/300gr. at 2000fps should do it also I am thinking esp. with that round nose..
I like stainless in a working rifle so that is why I lust after one of these Rugers Hawkeyes.. Might just go to a .410 B&M however we'll see..

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Right on!
I have one also, and use just 76 gr. IMR4350 with the 300 gr. Hornady for about 2,300 FPS. It shoot's plenty flat for my use and is fairly mild to shoot. I chopped of the barrel to just 17", and it handles great. I also threw away the Hogue 'eraser' stock, and installed a standard Ruger plastic 'all weather stock, which cut the weight a bit, and is much slimmer then the alaskan stock.
Mine wears a Leupold 2.5 power scope, which also helps cut size and weight. Congrat's! Great little gun.

I can attest to Dennis’ 17” barrel 375 Ruger being a very handy rifle as well as being comfortable to shoot. I was also pleasantly surprised at just how accurate and flat shooting his 300gr RN Hornady loading was at 325yds…the longest measured distance that we shot that day.

You are right Jim. Just like shootin' a big ass .30-30, but with some serious penetration ability.
Those 300 Hornady's are a soft bullet and expand fine on smaller game, and don't bloodshot the meat all to hell like one of those damn .270 jack rabbit guns.
And with the .375, you can reach the heart from any angle.

Might as well use a medium bore lever action. Just as effective, yet faster and handier both.

I guess I just can't see it.

To me it would be like owning a Ferrari and driving around in school zones only.

At 2,000 FPS may I suggest a cast bullet that will expand for a cleaner kill.

I would switch down to a 9.3. Probably the same recoil, once you take into account the smaller case.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Might as well use a medium bore lever action. Just as effective, yet faster and handier both.

I guess I just can't see it.

To me it would be like owning a Ferrari and driving around in school zones only.

Well, look at it this way. . . . My Harley will do 120 MPH, but most the time I do about 50. But I know if I want or NEED to, it will do 120.

AND, it will last a lot longer that way.

If you handload it all comes down to versatility..
You can load that Ruger down to grouse loads with a few grains of bullseye, 38-55 win. levels at 1200-1700fps or up to what ever you want on the high side.. Same goes just about any cart./cal.
My favorite 9.3 rock load out to 200m or so is a .375/250gr RCBS cast bullet over 35grs. of H4895.. It is extremely accurate in my rifle very pleasant to shot and makes a hell of a smack noise on rocks..
When spring bear season is over here that is what you reduced to until fall hunting season.. Having fun smacking rocks and gongs at various distances off hand and scouting for the fall season..
If your rifle is only a tool to hunt with I can see Mike Robinsons point..

We shoot quite a bit. It's one hell of a lot more enjoyable to spend the better part of a day shooting,plinking and enjoying it. Than to shoot for a couple of hours, and then go home and change into an orthopedic shirt.

Beating the crap out of my shoulder has never made my nards any bigger.

Most shooters and riflemen look for versatility in their firearms. Regardless of whether you have 1 rifle or a hundred rifles and cartridges, shooters will look for ways to make it more versatile. Nothing is more versatile than a big bore, they do things that a small bore can only dream of, and they can do everything a small bore can!

Bullets make the difference, look at 458 caliber, from less than 300 grs to 600 gr bullets available, and hundreds in between! Load up, load down, it's still a 458 caliber, and other bores just trying to get where it starts. Not talking about 458 in particular, but versatility and that always makes a good example.

Loading up or down adds versatility also, even with the same bullet you use for max operations. With conventional expanding bullets velocity is not always your friend, you might get better performance from a less than max load from many such bullets. Many times I load down to suit better performance of the bullet I am using, fitting it to the mission at hand.

Full strength balls to the wall loads are not always needed, and not always desired. I can't see it myself, to have assets available, to have versatility available and to not make use of it is rather a waste I would think.

Michael

Agree'd. Michael.
It's absolutely amazing how many guy's come into the shop and comment on how 'bad ass', their super mag blaster is, and with the same breath, about how they could only shoot it twice because it about took their arm off.
Now I will attest that I am not particularly very recoil sensative, but I get a whole lot more practice shooting 50-100 rounds of .375s at distances from 50-500 yards in a session, then a green horn that shoots just 3 rounds, because it kicks the hell out of him. And I'd bet they can't hit anything because of just that.

I'd put 'D B Cooper' and myself up against any shooter here at hitting little objects at long range, standing upright without a rest, as you will have to do while actually hunting game animals.

That's because we shoot powder by the Keg, with mostly slightly reduced big bore loadings.
Also, I may be hunting a little 1,000 lb Elk, or a Black Bear, or Blacktail Deer, in thick timber, at odd angles, from uncomfortable conditions, hanging by my ass on the edge of a cliff! Don't need anymore then about 2,000 fps with a 300 gr. bullet for that. With full throttle loads, the recoil could take me off the tree root I'm standing on and kick me down a canyon.
Some of these guys simply don't have the experience they think they have to make comments about having to run big bore wide open all the time.
When they do, or IF they ever do, then they may understand the concept.

I will edit this comment and simply say: I would prefer a little more gun for Ak. And, at this power level I would opt for something else.

Sorry, if I offended anyone.

Perhaps everyone needs to consider hunting situation before discounting someone’s selection of cartridge and bullet weight.

Dennis was nice enough to take me shooting in the general area where he hunts for deer, elk, and bear…very often hunting bear in combination with either deer or elk. And yes he still had his bear tag to fill so eyes were looking for possible bear movement as we moved between shooting locations.

Dennis and I were shooting his M77 375 Ruger as well as two of Michael458’s M70 rifles, one in 50 B&M Super Short and one in 416 B&M, this day. We discussed the issues of hunting this area as well as the need for the cartridge/bullet selection to be sufficiently versatile to handle the typical hunting situation that he encounters on a daily basis.

Dennis’ typical hunting situation is within the Coastal Mountain Range of Oregon. Dense wooded and mountainous areas where your only shot may range from…depending upon tree density and shooting lanes….15-feet to 30-yards… until stepping to the edge of a wood harvested area where you just might be looking at a 350 yard wide or long clear-cut area with your deer, elk, or bear about 300-yards away walking to the opposite side woods. And while a clear-cut area may appear from a distance to be a wide open grass covered vista similar to forest breaks in the Rocky Mountains it is not…it is strewn with tree dead falls and other litter from the clear cut along with the remaining tree stumps…it is definitely not an easy nor quick area to crawl through let alone walk through. Obviously a bigger caliber is better at the close range shots and definitely safer for bear while a 270 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield just might be a better cartridge selection for the 300-350 yard range shots.

I thought Michael’s 36” long M70 Winchester in 50 B&M SS would be the nuts on rifle for those up front and personal encounters with bear but would unfortunately fail in those occasional 300-350 yard “only shot” situations.

My personal choice of the three rifles we fired that day….Michael458’s 36” long M70 Winchester in 416 B&M loaded with a multitude of 350gr bullets all loaded in the mid-2400fps range…this cartridge/bullet weight combination would be the cream de la cream for this hunting situation…a lot of energy impact for those close encounter ranges but still a flat shooting combination for 300-350 yard shots. I can easily see why the .416 caliber ended up being the most versatile caliber in Africa and why the20” barrel M77 416 Ruger is becoming so popular in Alaska.

In Dennis’ case he has determined that a 300gr RN Hornady Interlock bullet at 2300fps from his 17” barrel M77 375 Ruger is accurate at 325yds while being more than bear adequate for those “up front and close encounters”. Having shot this rifle/cartridge combination at various ranges out to a measured 325yds I cannot disagree with his selection….I would definitely be comfortable with a bear encounter at nose distance as well as a shot at deer, elk, or bear at 300-350 yards.

Now…What rifle/cartridge/bullet weight combination would you prefer to use in this situation?

efbie,
ever heard of the 450/400 NE using solids? that's the easiest thing for you to perhaps compare to IN THE WORST case .. no FOOL on this planet would call using that round on an elk unethical. You REALLY get on my nerves with rubbish like this .. you trying to take a holier than thou attitude, with ZIP experience.

have you EVER used a 300gr hornady bullet at reduced vels?

*I* have - though the 376 steyr will go over 2400fps with a 25" barrel, its FAR more comfortable FOR MY WIFE to shoot at 2200 ... impact at distance on tiny little critters like blackbuck doe and pigs ... impressive

hornady .375 old style bullets are SOFT ..

repeat after me .. SOFT

Humane killer? you are trying to make it an ethical discussion, when it is CERTAINLY above the 1000ftlbs generally recommended ? ? AND you have ZERO basis to discuss the matter with.

you are neither lying or dying on this thread, though we all die .. you are inexperienced in the matter, and still spout off like you've used this combo and it bounces off animals. he's talking about animals FREQUENTLY taken with the 454, heck, even 45LC/44mags ... and you want to get all "ethical" .. which means you are calling the man UNethical for his obviously humane choice

WORST case - it acts like a solid and goes right on through

you speaking about approriate loads in a ruger is like Biden talking about deer hunting ...

thanks jeffe, I can always count on you for clear concise logic.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
thanks jeffe, I can always count on you for clear concise logic. ::

So. No experience or rational. Sir, you attempted to take this emotional and based of your utter lack of experience
You try to put your utter lack of experience off at me? Do you even have a reloading press to handle big bore?

You have ZERO experience with big bore but try to turn things emotional based off your guesses. No one wants to hear it, and you questioning anothers ethics based off your rather limited experience s pathetic

jeffe I am not going to argue with you. I am not going to amswer any questions. Its a waste of time, you are clearly a low class individual.

Let me ask you a question. Just in way of information. Could you provide some links to the times you taken a position on AR and admitted been wrong. Something significant? I did a brief search of your 24k posts and failed to ever hear you say you were wrong. I did find an incredible history of arrogant flame throwing, tiresome word parsing, out of context mis-quotes and nit picking crap.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
jeffe I am not going to argue with you. I am not going to amswer any questions. Its a waste of time, you are clearly a low class individual.

Let me ask you a question. Just in way of information. Could you provide some links to the times you taken a position on AR and admitted been wrong. Something significant? I did a brief search of your 24k posts and failed to ever hear you say you were wrong. I did find an incredible history of arrogant flame throwing, tiresome word parsing, out of context mis-quotes and nit picking crap.

just to be clear.. you call a man inhumane and unethical, in an area where you self admit you have zero experience and refuse to answer any questions, and I am the bad guy?

Jeffeosso, don't waste your time with this idiot. I'm sure you have the experience to know there will be times when you run into a guy like fourbore. He may possibly have knocked ove a couple game animals, and thinks he has it all figured out, and enough so to give advice to others.
Fourbore, I'm not sure of what experience you may or may not have, but just so you know, I have personally taken upwards of 450 big game animals. Mostly from culling operations from a couple of very large ranches.
And I have taken them with a wide variaty of calibers.
For the type of hunting I do now after 47 years of killing animals, my loads work just fine.
I suggest you get a little more experience before you spout off about a subject that I doubt you have much, if any knowledge except for what you may have read.

O, one more thing since I'm in the mood. . . .Kiss my ass!

Sincerely, Dennis Wright/ Springfrickin field Oregon!

Fourbore, wondering if you would tell us all here just how many animals you have actually taken in you lifetime,
. . . did I mention "Kiss My ass'?

Jesus, I thought I had stumbled across the HotCore / Elk hunting thread
for a minute !!!


Interesting to see he is not the only one who won't answer questions as to experience.

.

Ya know 500N; I would love to get some of these guys to come on over to these rain forests, and hunt some of the worlds largest Elk, in some of the crap that we hunt them in, and THEN tell me what they would prefer to use.
But NOT until they have walked it!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Ya know 500N; I would love to get some of these guys to come on over to these rain forests, and hunt some of the worlds largest Elk, in some of the crap that we hunt them in, and THEN tell me what they would prefer to use.
But NOT until they have walked it!

Yep.


Having posted with jeffoso for many years on AR,
and from memory had a few disagreements, I'd still back his knowledge.

.

Ya, I don't know Jeffeosso, and have never me the man, but from his writings I would say he has enough experience to give advice to those that don't.

O, and Ted, did I also mention that I like you rife and your choice of loads. . . . ?

looks a little like mine.



And fourbore, I suggest you quit giving advice about stuff you have no real clue about and take up knitting. . . . .

DW,

You maybe mistaken in thinking this thread (or my comments)are about your 2300 fps load or your elk hunting. It is about a 2000 fps loading in Alaska. When I read Alaska, I think big bear encounters, at least as remote possibility.

300 gr @2300 fps = 3500 ft lbs
300 gr @2000 fps = 2600 ft lbs

You say 300 grain Hornady bullets expand well enough when started at 2000 fps. Or are we talking about your load. If teds 2000 fps load works, I assume they are too soft for anywhere near H&H power levels. Or, he needs another 300 fps or a lighter bullet. Maybe he is better off with zero expansion and good head shot on a bear using FMJ solids? I really dont know.

Hornady does offer a 225 gr bullet specifically for that power level. The not-so-old 375Win was an over grown 30/30. Sounded ok at time, but not anything that interested me.

If this was posted on the hunting forum and the result was a good one shot kill, I would not say a word. But; ted offer this up for discussion here and I assume he wanted some candid feed back and discussion of the relative merits for his creation.

A powerful gun is no substitute for skill, but this seems a poor bang for the buck to me. I would much prefer my 30/30 at this power level. That 30/30 works just fine in the rain, snow or miserable mix we see around here. These days I prefer my 7mm08.

Damn and I went through this whole thing and was waiting to hear from 22WRF. Who would he stick up for?

Yes fourbore, that appeared to be the way it was going. My apologees.
I would however, that said, not worry at all taking a big Bear with a 300 gr. bullet at 2,300 fps. With correct placement I am sure 'The Bear will NOT like it'.
And at that speed I can put it anywhere I want it.
Since penetration is the key 'in the right spot', I am also sure that the creator of this thread would be better off with a heavy bullet at a moderate velocity that he can shoot well, then a fast one he may not shoot so well.
I would personally take his load over a .30-06 at any velocity.

It's not so much the idea of you thinking that a faster bullet might be better, as it certainly would, 'if' one can place it correctly. It was your 'arrogance' that set me off.
Your last post seems to lack that arrogance and comes across just fine.

Still interested in your hunting background.
Cheers.

DW

Thank you and point well take. I will choose words carefully. Maybe others will follow or bad feeling run too deep at this point.

I hunt New England states. Upland game and white tail deer. Some play around pest and varmint shooting. Nothing big or exciting. I never left North America for any reason. My friend raises dogs so; I am lucky to get a lot of great bird and rabbit opportunity. I hunted Florida, PA and Canada. Canada was rabbits. NO big deal and I never made any pretense. Perhaps I need update my profile?

I like blasting the big bores, for fun.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
DW

Thank you and point well take. I will choose words carefully. Maybe others will follow or bad feeling run too deep at this point.

I hunt New England states. Upland game and white tail deer. Some play around pest and varmint shooting. Nothing big or exciting. I never left North America for any reason. My friend raises dogs so; I am lucky to get a lot of great bird and rabbit opportunity. I hunted Florida, PA and Canada. Canada was rabbits. NO big deal and I never made any pretense. Perhaps I need update my profile?

I like blasting the big bores, for fun.

I'll take that as an appology, and extend my hand in gratitude. Much appreciated.

There are lost's of folks here that do have a tremendous amount of big game hunting under their belts. Mine is limited to all the game along the West side of the US, but includes a fair amount of it.
I've learned while doing so that a lot of the traditional train of thought, passed from one person to the next, is pure BS. So I'm a little more careful about being open to new ideas that others have BECAUSE of what they have acctually done with their ideas.
It's only when someone strongly states an arrogant opinion that slams anothers experience's that get's most fired up on here. . . . . . I think. . . . at least for the most part. . . . .
It appears you have some experience with birds and other for the most part 'small' game.
That's the most easy going, and some of the most enjoyable type of hunting you can do. And it's great practice for when you are to hunt bigger game, and proper shot placement on such.

I also think that having your hat in your hand to regards to others here will get you a looooong way. We ALL get rilled up on occasion, get we get over it pretty quickly.
Just remember that if you make a definate, statement, demeans others; make damn sure you have the appropriate experence to back your comments. Or you may get a responce from some, just like my old Morgan Mare (Bucks) would give to my Red Healer (Jake). A giant side kick to the head. . . . . .

Cheers.

300 gr at 2000fps in .375 bore would definitely not be my first choice for elk load! The same bullet at 2300 fps I could live with. I would take both of them over a 250gr Sierra at 2520 fps as those explode (killed the bull though and quickly which was somewhat amazing when we discovered just how little damage it had done).

DWright, I used a 21" barreled M1896 Springfield in the original 30-40 Krag with 220gr RN soft points when I hunted the rain forests of the Olympic peninsula as a kid. My Dad used a 30-30 and the other hunter in our group used a 30-06. Worked well when used appropriately.

The entire Jeff and fourbore discussion, to me anyway, is a hoot as neither have hunted elk or anything bigger for that matter. So IMHO neither have the credibility to comment on the subject.

Ted,
That is a compact little package you have there that seems to shoot very well. Enjoy it!

quote:

The entire Jeff and fourbore discussion, to me anyway, is a hoot as neither have hunted elk or anything bigger for that matter. So IMHO neither have the credibility to comment on the subject.

Yea, its too bad, too pollute a thread with personal anamosity. I know I cross a line using the "humaine" word. I will edit that post.

So this is an elk hunting thread? And Scott agrees more/less 2000 fps is slow. You expect it would work on elk. Is an elk all that hard to kill? How would you stack that load up against Alaskan brown bear. Would it be wise to have a factory load as a 2nd shot?

When I was younger, my friends dad old us a story about his hunting grizzly and having bullets from 30-06 rickoshey (or his words bounce off) the bears head. This is closest I come to experience on this one. All I have read these sound like mighty tough critters and hard to stop once they get angry or protective female. I am sure any gun is better than a stick. I guess the old 06 got it done.

A 300 gr. at 2,000 will kill a big Bear. The problem is that it would be a matter of WHEN. A bullet just at or under 2,000 lacks the shock effect that creates massive wound channels, and simply makes a hole. a Bear shot thru the heart with this will probably die, but not for awhile, and can do a LOT of damage for that while.
On Elk, because of the terrain I hunt in, I always aim for a vital organ by going thru a heavy shoulder bone first to anchor it before it heads to the bottom of a steep canyon. Hitting bone with a heavy bullet helps, by sending secondary bone fragments in all directions creating more damage to the internals, and taking out it's ability to run very well, as you can imagine.
This is another reason I don't use light for caliber bullets, as I have had one Nosler partition, a 180 gr. from a .30-06, at full velocity, fail to penetrate the shoulder bone of a very small Blacktail deer at just 30 yards.
Although most everyone else has had good luck with them, I refuse to use a partition again.
Elk can take some good hit's and not even flinch, and run a long ways before slowing down. Then again I have taken some that have dropped right there with a good shoulder shot and not moved again. The good news is that Elk do not usually charge you. I have taken several Black Bear and can tell you that they can be tough enough. A friend I was hunting with shot one 4 times, all good hit's from a .270, and it acted as nothing had happened, until hit the final time thru the head. When we skinned it, we found that two of the four shot's had gone thru it's heart, and the third thru it's lungs! The last shot was when we caught up to it about 100 yards away backed into a tree hollow, and he placed the muzzle of the barrel against it's forehead.
.270s have kille lot's of bear I an just sure of it; but for me, a .270 is a fantastic, long range Rabbit caliber.
Now I have never hunted a Brownie, but those are BIG animals, and I imagine can do a LOT of damage quickly before dying even with good hits from what I have seen. Though I hope to hunt one one day, they honestly scare me. So, for myself, if and when I ever hunt one, I will have the velocity up about a fast as I can get it from my .375s, but I may use something bigger. Maybe. Possibly one of Michael458s .416s, or .458s. as a heavy .458 seems to be about the limit of my ability to shoot really well, it would stop there for me.
A few good friends of mine hunt Africa a LOT. From what I understand is that the proffesional guides biggest frustration is having a client show up with a caliber that they are afraid of, and can't shoot well. So just use the biggest caliber you can shoot, without any ill effect to accuracy, and you will do your best.

As far as factory loads, I never use them in anything. Don't believe in them.

Cheers fourbore.

Never shot anything with the 375. But, I have shot a 400lb hog with a 50AE (300gr @ 1500fps). At 25yds, the bullet entered just below the right eye, went through the neck, through the chest, and exited out the ribs. I would guess over 3' of penetration. Since the 375 cals have much better SD & BC, and no ash tray size hollow point, I would guess a 300 gr .375 @ 2000 fps would be just fine as long as the ranges were kept reasonable.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
A 300 gr. at 2,000 will kill....

Is more powerful than MOST 500 SW factory loads and the 454 factory loads in a pistol. Both of which have killed elephants, lion, cape buffalo and hippo ..

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
A 300 gr. at 2,000 will kill....

Is more powerful than MOST 500 SW factory loads and the 454 factory loads in a pistol. Both of which have killed elephants, lion, cape buffalo and hippo ..

That's for damn sure. Seems most of the newer hunters are using faster and faster cartridges. But beyond a certain level, velocity can become an enemy. What's the best thing going to stop one thing, hit a certain way, may not be so good for another.
I pretty much completely agree with Elmer's thinkin', and always kinda thought O'Conner was more of a show boater then Keith. Keith was a hunter that at times NEEDED to bring home some table fixins'.

The loads Ted is producing are 35 Whelen class. Is the 35 Whelen with 250-300gr bullets good for elk and bear? Then why not a 375 loaded down?

To me what he's done is just like loading a 458 down to 45-70 levels as many have claimed to do. Personal load development is one of the greatest benefits of handloading.