The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Killing/Stopping Power vs Recoil Index?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Pretty much every book on African hunting or rifles has charts of energies, velocities, killing power/stopping power and some have charts of recoil energy and/or velocity. Has anyone ever seen an index or chart which combines the two? Some kind of killing power which takes recoil into consideration. It seems like such a simple concept I'd figure someone has to have done such in the past. Caleb | ||
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See my article in the most recent African Hunter magazine, the one with the hippo on the cover. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Well it seems to me that recoil energy should give you a good idea of the momentum of the ejecta, but surely there is more to killing power than that. One has to look at the projectile, its composition, shape etc. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Cable68, as Peter has noted, the projectile composition and shape do the actual determination as far as killing power/effectiveness. Classic Example: solids VS soft points. The other variable is rifle weight, run the numbers on a 9lb (easy to carry) VS 12lb (heavy, but sucks up recoil) rifle. Personally, I think a good 1" sling cancels out the heavier weight. But, I shoot my big bores on at least a weekly basis. That's why I cast my own bullets, so I can afford to shoot 20-30 rounds each from my 9,3x62, the 375H&H, 416 Rigby, and my 505 and 550 Gibbs once or twice every week. Off on a tangent, but I like to shoot and recoil does not bother me that much. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Few of us notice literally any amount of recoil when shooting game. Generally speaking the harder it kicks the better it kills assuming you hit something in a lethal place. Hoofs don't count. Now when you punch beer can sized holes through living tissue precise shooting is less important than good form and style! Remember to never look down on your more recoil sensitive bretheren and don't smirk.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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If one considers the DG calibers from .366(9.3) to 458, you find the following with a 10pound rifle: .366 286-300gr 2200-2400fps [268@2393=26 lbs] .375 300-320gr 2400-2550fps [300@2555=39 lbs] .416 400gr 2300-2600fps [400@2330=45 lbs] .458 500gr 2200fps [500@2200=38 lbs] In a 10 pound rifle, the 9.3 is the lightest, but is minimal for elephant and buffalo. The 375 and 458 are essentially the same at a manageable 39pounds. I was surprised to find my favorite 415/425 calibers have a higher recoil that the 458. Kudude | |||
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I have to say that Rob has nailed this one spot on! | |||
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I guess no one really understood my question; I was wondering if anyone has ever made a table like Taylor's Knockout index, or the Bwanna Saeed index that included some measure of recoil at the same time. Some single number like the Knockout Index divided by recoil energy. Maybe Will's article did, but I don't subscribe to African Hunter so I don't know. Was just coming up with an idea for another kind of table/index which may well be as useful or useless as all the others out there, but possibly a little different in that it looks at the energy on both ends at the same time. Caleb | |||
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So make your own then!! Sounds like an opportunity waiting. | |||
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Hi Cable68, I haven't seen one, but if you go to: http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp then you could use the Bwana Saeed index table and add in your own column for recoil. | |||
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Looks like Macifej had the same thoughts as I was writing my post! | |||
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As the creator of the Bwana Saeed Index (BSI), I will say this: I have recently come to understand how useful the Newtonian Free Impulse (I) is in defining the impulse power of the load, which is what drives the bullet forward and the rifle rearward. Killing effect on target is known as "Whomp." Recoil effect on shooter shoulder is known as "Whump." Whomp is directly proportional to BSI. Whump is directly proportional to I. Ratio of Whomp to Whump would indeed be an excellent corollary measure of lethality. So, this new measure could be calculated for all loads in the BSI tabulation and produce a new column. This new value could be expressed as: BSI/I = BS  But seriously, that is a good concept, and I have thought of it before. It is tedious calculation because you need to specify the weight of the rifle and a standard powder charge to be realistic. This is not rocket science but a good measure of whump beside each whomp and their ratio would not be BS. I just could not resist the above joke. | |||
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 I believe an HTML calculator for the Value should be created and I will put it on my site with the recoil calculato and Taylor index.... | |||
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Great! It would work best as a calculator for each individual case of rifle weight and powder charge. Call it the S&H Index. Eventually an S&H Index Table will result: No BS, just S&HIT. Fun and useful.  | |||
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As usual Alf! You're a big wet blanket on our fun!! A big damper! Maybe we should have a damper effectiveness index named after Alf?!?! "ALFIDOE" Alf-Index of Damper Operational Effectiveness WOOF! | |||
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Ha! The shit stirring got to Alf. Nickudu and his son did the computer work to present this table for the site, then they disavowed all association with it: Bwana Saeed Index Don't let Alf spoil the fun. An S&HI tabulation may not be a direct measure of lethality of the rifle or the rifleman. Unpredictable and inconsistent animals and humans are involved. But it would be a measure of potential utility ... as long as Walter is not the rifleman. | |||
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Indeed Alf, you are quite correct. I can shoot my 338 Win Mag all day, have a lot of fun, and think nothing of the recoil. One of my friends thinks its recoil is excessive. It would be an interesting experiment to video tape the reaction of people who have never shot anything bigger than 224 calibers, and have them shoot a number of bigger guns up to 600 Overkill.  | |||
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how about an index on the desire to put things in neat little boxes... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The OCD index??? Are you talking about RIP's tables? My bullet packing? | |||
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Experience level(1 through 10) X osessive compulsion disorder level(1 through 10) I.Q. % E + OCD = NLBI (neet little box index) Well I score a 13.7 on the NLBI 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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So I have an NLBI of 23.5?? I don't know about that formula Boomer?!?!? | |||
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what is your experience level obsessive level I.Q.??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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That inforation is classified Boomer! You don't really want to know the answer to those questions now do you?  | |||
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for me 1+10 137%10= 13.7 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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anyone know of a good online iq test that is not a scam??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Hi Cable68 You could check this link to my site along with the second link for a comparison. http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores2.html The above link has recoil energy and recoil velocities in the chart. The second link compares the actual muzzle rise and the rearward movement. http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores9.html I set up a grid pattern on a large piece of styrofoam and did all the shooting while videoing it. Then I could go back and see the difference in the recoil effect as it increased with some of the large bores. I think this is a little closer to what you were asking about. Takegood care, Dave | |||
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how smart do you have to be to figure out this is a scam to get your credit card number and Email address? IQ of eighty ought to cover it. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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470 Mbogo, that is a great site you have set up, very interesting and useful. Thanks. | |||
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I have a web sight That tells me all that info For any rifle.It computs the info. | |||
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Gentlemen, Our own genius, Walter, devised a system of measuring recoil without firing a shot. I will post a video clip of his method if I get a chance later today, or may be tomorrow. | |||
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470Mbogo. Nice links. I am SO glad that my 416 Rigby is at the bottom of that spectrum as I have no real desire to shoot anything much stiffer. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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OKAY! As the resident P-Sigh-Kolo-jist (and we have a resident P-Sigh-Khi-@-Rist on the forum), I think you all should send me certified checks and we'll have group sessions. Cost will be based upon (RIP, how much is it costing us to convert our Ruger #1s to 400/.395NE?) scores from above. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Given the velocties involved, I am surprised he did not get better penetration! ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Felt recoil has NOTHING to do with power, just like PEAK preasure has NOTHING to do with velocity. .. For example, a 30-30 in a marlin ahs more FELT recoil than a 30-06 in a sendero ... and a 500NE Merkel has more FELT recoil than a 585 nyati ... at the same weight... jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Baised on my hunting use, and doing a lot of practice shooting, with the 9,3x74R, the 450/400 3 1/4", and the 450 No2 in doubles, and the 375 H&H, 416 Rem Mag, 416 WBY Mag, and the 458 Win Mag[I have not killed much with the bolt guns in comparision to the doubles but I have shot the bolt guns a lot], I would recommend the following. In a bolt rifle the 404 Jeffery, or any of the .40's loaded to original Jeffery specs. In a double rifle a 450/400. With a 400 gr bullet, soft or solid as necessary,going around 2100fps, in a rifle of @ 10 lbs, you have a hunting gun that is easy to carry, easy to shoot, and kills well. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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............................hOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO COME UP WITH THIS ?????????  .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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gummy, I have been working on the BSI as a unified field theory of sporting rifle lethality indices since late 2000 A.D. The final derivation of BSI to BS occurred as I started typing that response last night. Epiphany! Eureka! S&HIT happens!  | |||
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I am on the work 'puter and it won't let me open this. I am dying to see Walter's recoilometer when I get to another 'puter. Even a fool such as Walter might spark another idea to advance the BSI into pure BS.  | |||
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