Dang, just that old gag with Walter horsing around dropping cartridges on his foot. Bozo in a chicken suit again!!! O.K., so goofy it was funny again.

Trying to make the Walter Recoil Index more scientific...

So you have to count the amount of "A"s after the "W"

The 600 Nitro was WAAAAAA
The 577 T Rex was WAAAAAAAAAAA
Also the T Rex was higher pitch... almost a falseto...

Seems the T rex was almost twice the "A"s and 2 octives higher...

Hmmm...

I own the:
375 H&H
416 Rem. Mag.
458 Lott By CZ
The bad thing is I can't shoot all three at the same time for DG.

I have taken the time to research approximate powder loads and nominate rifle weights so I could calculate recoil figures and have added these to the Bwana Saeed index. It may be of interest. The recoil calculator used was from www.handloads.com:-
The order of the numbers are:
Bullet Diameter, Bullet Weight, Velocity, Powder Charge (approx nominal) gn, Rifle Weight lb, Recoil Impulse lbs sec, Recoil Velocity fps, Free Recoil Energy ft/lbs, and the cartridge size and/or some text on cartridge identification:

0.375 300 2600 81 9.5 4.9 16.6 40.7 .375 Full Power load
0.375 300 2750 90 9.5 5.7 19.1 54.1 .375 Wea., .375 JRS, Etc.
0.375 300 2900 112 9.5 5.9 19.8 58.0 .378 Weatherby

0.408 400 2150 85 10 5.3 17.1 45.6 .450/400 Nitro-Express 3"
0.416 400 2400 90 10 5.9 18.9 55.2 .416 Rigby, .416 Remington
0.416 400 2700 115 10 6.8 22 75.2 .416 Weatherby
0.421 400 2150 75 10 5.2 16.6 42.6 .404 Jeffery
0.435 410 2325 75 10 5.6 17.9 49.8 .425 Westley Richards

0.458 480 2150 90 10.5 6.2 18.9 58.5 .450 Nitro-Express
0.458 500 2100 70 10.5 5.9 18.1 53.4 .458 Winchester
0.458 550 1950 65 10.5 5.1 15.6 39.1 .458 Winchester
0.458 450 2450 81 10.5 6.3 19.4 61.4 .458 Lott, .450 Ackley
0.458 500 2300 80 10.5 6.5 20 65.2 .458 Lott, .450 Ackley
0.458 500 2450 110 10.5 7.4 22.7 83.7 .450 Rigby, .450 Dakota
0.458 500 2600 120 10.5 7.9 24.2 95.6 .460 Weatherby

0.466 480 2150 105 10.5 6.4 19.8 63.6 .500/.465 Nitro-Express
0.475 500 2200 109 10.5 6.8 20.9 71.2 .470 Nitro-Express
0.476 520 2150 110 10.5 6.9 21.2 73.3 .476 Westley Richards
0.476 480 2200 112 10.5 6.7 20.5 68.3 .475 Nitro-Express
0.483 480 2200 110 10.5 6.6 20.4 67.5 .475 No.2 Nitro-Express
0.489 500 2200 105 10.5 6.7 20.7 69.7 .475 No.2 Jeffery

0.505 525 2300 130 11 7.7 22.4 86.0 .505 Gibbs
0.505 570 2320 120 11 8.0 23.4 93.6 .505 Gibbs - Barnes "X"
0.505 600 2325 120 11 8.3 24.4 101.3 .505 Gibbs - Barnes S.S.
0.505 600 2578 130 11 9.2 26.8 123.1 .505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P.
0.505 700 2260 120 11 9.2 26.8 122.5 .505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P.

0.51 535 2300 105 11 7.3 21.4 78.5 .500 Jeffery
0.51 535 2400 110 11 7.7 22.4 85.6 .500 Jeffery
0.51 570 2150 115 11 7.5 21.9 81.8 .500 Nitro Express
0.51 600 2470 118 11 8.7 25.4 110.0 .500 A-Square, .510 JAB, Etc.

0.585 750 2050 160 12 9.7 25.9 125.4 .577 Nitro-Express
0.585 750 2460 170 12 11.2 30.1 168.4 .577 Tyrannosaur
0.585 750 2360 150 12 10.5 28.2 148.3 .585 Nyati

0.622 900 1950 165 12.5 10.7 27.6 147.9 .600 Nitro-Express

0.7 1000 2000 170 14 11.9 27.4 167.6 .700 Nitro Express

I have it in an excel spreadsheet or in PDF format if someone can tell me how to post a file attachment.

338user,
Very interesting.
If we divide the TKO by Impulse, regardless of rifle weight, the .375 H&H turns out more lethal than the .378 Weatherby and the .375 Weatherby is least effective of the three:

.375 H&H: 41.7/4.9 = 8.51
.375 Weatherby: 44.1/5.7 = 7.74
378 Weatherby: 46.6/5.9 = 7.90

Whomp/Whump ratio is greatest for the .375 H&H.

Since the BSI is simply [TKO x (Sectional Density) x constant], the rankings for BSI/I would be the same for these three, since these three are using the same 300-grain bullet.

Fine tuning to maximize whomp/whump will come from varying the bullet weights.

An index involving free recoil energy and recoil velocity (instead of impulse only) will be affected by rifle weight as well as load specifics, and offers a complexity regarding how to factor in both energy and velocity of free recoil. Impulse alone is certainly more simple.

I will check your numbers.
Hope you can get some help with a tabulation.

Hi RIP,
You end up with this order if you use TKO/Recoil Impulse to measure the effectiveness of a caliber:-

.700 Nitro Express 16.8
.600 Nitro-Express 14.6
.458 Winchester 13.7
.585 Nyati 13.7
.577 Tyrannosaur 13.4
.577 Nitro-Express 13.2
.500 A-Square, .510 JAB, Etc. 12.4
.505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P. 12.4
.500 Jeffery 12.3
.500 Jeffery 12.1
.505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P. 12.1
.505 Gibbs - Barnes S.S. 12.0
.505 Gibbs - Barnes "X" 11.9
.500 Nitro Express 11.9
.458 Lott, .450 Ackley 11.8
.458 Winchester 11.6
.475 No.2 Jeffery 11.5
.458 Lott, .450 Ackley 11.4
.505 Gibbs 11.3
.475 No.2 Nitro-Express 11.0
.476 Westley Richards 11.0
.460 Weatherby 11.0
.470 Nitro-Express 11.0
.450 Nitro-Express 10.9
.450 Rigby, .450 Dakota 10.8
.500/.465 Nitro-Express 10.7
.475 Nitro-Express 10.7
.425 Westley Richards 10.6
.404 Jeffery 10.0
.416 Rigby, .416 Remington 9.7
.450/400 Nitro-Express 3" 9.5
.416 Weatherby 9.4
.375 Full Power load 8.5
.378 Weatherby 7.9
.375 Wea., .375 JRS, Etc. 7.7

Easy to do on a spreadsheet, but be careful interpreting what it means. Field experience is a better measure.

Er?......Uh? I think you guys need to work on that formula a little bit eh?

Since when does a .458" Win Mag outgun a .577 T-Rex? etc.....

If you use BSI/Recoil velocity then you get this order:

.700 Nitro Express 17.5
.600 Nitro-Express 15.7
.458 Winchester 14.0
.505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P. 13.9
.585 Nyati 13.3
.577 Tyrannosaur 13.0
.577 Nitro-Express 12.9
.500 A-Square, .510 JAB, Etc. 11.7
.505 Gibbs - Barnes R.N.S.P. 11.6
.505 Gibbs - Barnes S.S. 11.5
.505 Gibbs - Barnes "X" 10.9
.458 Winchester 10.8
.458 Lott, .450 Ackley 10.7
.500 Nitro Express 10.6
.500 Jeffery 10.2
.500 Jeffery 10.2
.460 Weatherby 10.2
.450 Rigby, .450 Dakota 10.0
.476 Westley Richards 9.8
.450 Nitro-Express 9.7
.505 Gibbs 9.5
.458 Lott, .450 Ackley 9.5
.470 Nitro-Express 9.4
.475 No.2 Jeffery 9.2
.500/.465 Nitro-Express 9.1
.475 Nitro-Express 8.8
.475 No.2 Nitro-Express 8.7
.425 Westley Richards 8.5
.450/400 Nitro-Express 3" 8.4
.404 Jeffery 8.3
.416 Rigby, .416 Remington 8.3
.416 Weatherby 8.0
.375 Full Power load 6.4
.378 Weatherby 6.0
.375 Wea., .375 JRS, Etc. 5.9


It isn't significantly different. Anyhow, enough frivolity for now. If anyone wants the spreadsheet which has recoil impulse, recoil velocity and free recoil energy added into the complete Bwana Saeed Index table (I didn't have all the columns in my previous post because I thought it would be too wide), then send me a PM and I will forward it on.

I know what you mean Macifej. When you play with numbers you can fool yourself into thinking you have a better way to choose between calibers than by shooting something with them.

I'd probably look at Projectile diameter x projectile weight x velocity x BC x SD then sort.

The SD variable is a check to the weight variable.

The BC gives an indication of penetration at distance.

If you wanna get fancy then throw in three ranges an calculate the mean (total sum average)

Hi Macifej,

quote:

Projectile diameter x projectile weight x velocity x BC x SD

I dont have BC in the table, but using Projectile diameter x projectile weight x velocity x SD gives exactly the same order as the BSI. I don't really want to get fancy and do three ranges. I've done enough sorting for today.

This way madness lies!

Guys please! My head hurts! I'd just as soon grade freshmen papers on Psychology theories as figure out these formulae.

And what happened to my beloved 45-70 in these DG cartridge calculations?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
And what happened to my beloved 45-70 in these DG cartridge calculations?

Sorry about resurrecting the thread, just ran across the BS/BSI stuff the other day. Couldn't help myself, started goofing around with a spreadsheet.

Depends on what you mean by ".45-70" of course. I just computed a few numbers on a spreadsheet for a few cartridges, and did some numbers for hot .444 Marlin loads. Loads I've seen listed for heavy cast bullets score in the 90-100 BSI range. The BSI is much more sensitive to bullet weight than MV, so the leverthumpers look pretty good in that light. A 430 grain bullet at 2200 fps MV, which is supposed to be a Buffalo Bore .45-70 load, has a BSI of 151; which is approaching .416 Rigby/Remington values. Even at 1800 fps, it scores 124.

What I found surprising is how well everyday pedestrian cartridges do on the BSI. A .308 Winnie pushing a 180 grain bullet at 2600 fps scores 47, close to half of the Ooomph of the .375's 300 grain load. If the BSI made sense, one could conclude that if a .375 is just enough for a 2000 lb eland, a .308 would be just enough for a 1000 lb super-elk. But elks require at least a .338, don't they?

Couch Tater:
Good work!

BSI/I = BS

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Few of us notice literally any amount of recoil when shooting game. Generally speaking the harder it kicks the better it kills assuming you hit something in a lethal place. Hoofs don't count. Now when you punch beer can sized holes through living tissue precise shooting is less important than good form and style! Remember to never look down on your more recoil sensitive bretheren and don't smirk.-Rob

Hmmmm."Recoil"?,Is that when you startle a snake,he slides off,then coils up again,hence...re-coil? ...seriosuly,I agree,only time I get bothered is a long day on the bench with some Nasty Big Bores

I'm curious how the .378 Weatherby manages to rank so low....... Have these folks ever shot a.378 Weatherby???? It's a nasty medium bore!

I second that! I had a few and one was light and they can really hurt(maybe more than a 460!)

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I'm curious how the .378 Weatherby manages to rank so low....... Have these folks ever shot a.378 Weatherby???? It's a nasty medium bore!

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
I second that! I had a few and one was light and they can really hurt(maybe more than a 460!)

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I'm curious how the .378 Weatherby manages to rank so low....... Have these folks ever shot a.378 Weatherby???? It's a nasty medium bore!

I've been hearing that the 378 is as abusive a some of the bigger bores. If that's the case I'm confident about a bigbore. Just waiting on it to be finished.
Chris and I seem to have an infinite timeline on our projects. (The Chris the Bubbas met down in Texas)

i have a 378 with a KDF on the end and its a pleasure to use, and it feels a light 9lbs ,the 375 being haveing a better TKO than a 378 or 375 ! buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullllllllllllllshit

tankhunter -- take the KDF off and tell me how much a pleasure it is to shoot. Oh, and if it's such a soft recoiling cartridge, why do you have a brake on it?

The wicked reputation of the 378 Wby must come from the factory rifle's light weight and poor stock fit for the suffering shooters.
Or it is all in their heads? Fear?
Mental attitude is the most important part of recoil tolerance.
No one ever has pain from recoil when actually HUNTING, do they?

I have a CZ550mag rechambered from .375 H&H to .378 Wby and it is a pussycat with no brake. Nothing painful about it.

RIP -- my point was that if your rifle is equipped with a brake and as such doesn't recoil hard, that doesn't mean that particular cartridge doesn't produce prodigeous recoil.

quote:

No one ever has pain from recoil when actually HUNTING, do they?

Nope, I had a shot at a running pig a few weeks ago with my 505 Gibbs, 525gn bullet at 2500fps. Don't remember the recoil. Unfortuately missed the pig, but reloaded and was ready for another shot within a second or so, but didn't get another shot opportunity before it was into the scrub. Shooting targets at the range results in much more noticable recoil. Adrenalin must be a recoil antidote!

I had my back against a tree while sitting in a tree stand when I shot a hog with my .458 Lott -- I felt no pain at all -- until about 15 minutes later.......

A big factor in the 378.s recoil is the Weatherby style stock ..... I put a Whby style stock on my 1st 458 . . With full house ammo it would leap out of my left hand and I would have to reach up and grab the fore end out of the air ... It wouldn,t go completely vertical but pretty high ... It is because of the Monte Carlo style stock ...... It is fine on little calibers like the 300 Whby , but on a real caliber they make recoil much worse ................,.,/., Why not put a brake on a rifle .... . If you need the speed , it makes it more fun to use .....

Yes, but let us not forget that the prodigeous amount of powder it is burning is also playing a role in this play.........

A whole heap of variables in this equation --

Shot placement and bullet design seem to top the list. Let's toss in "health of the animal" just to keep things interesting, ohhhh yeah . . . and gender, time of day, ambient temperature.

Not making fun here. It's just that a lot of factors go into what ultimately kills game.

(They die of old age sometimes . . . )

I suppose you can quantify recoil in terms of ft. lbs . . . metric kilos in some circles.

But perceived recoil gets plenty of discussion. I think the recoil of a Marlin lever gun in 45/70 is more "punishing" than a full-load .458 Win. Mag. from a heavier Ruger No. 1. It just might have something to do with the way the guns fit, width and thickness of the recoil pad, and the weight of the two guns.

Seems pretty much agreed that recoil from lighter, faster bullets is "different" than that from heavier, slower bullets -- even when muzzle energies and quantified recoil are the same.

Somewhere in my files I have a cartoon of a Can O' Worms . . .

Cable68,

I liked the approach taken by Kevin Robertson "Doctari" in his book "Africa's most dangerous" he uses a modified Taylor KO formula that takes into account caliber and SD, this credits the longer for caliber bullets and heavier for caliber bullets.
I read the book a while ago so I hope I am not misquoting his principles.
But the concept was sound. Take a look and decide for your self.
Nitro450exp

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Cable68,

I liked the approach taken by Kevin Robertson "Doctari" in his book "Africa's most dangerous" he uses a modified Taylor KO formula that takes into account caliber and SD ...

The Bwana Saeed Index (BSI) was stolen by Doctari!


TKO already includes caliber, velocity and bullet weight.

BSI = TKO x SD x (a constant)

Plagiarism!

Seems a little strange that a 458 win mag out does a 585 nyati,577 t rex, 577 nitro, 500 Jeff, and a 500 A square.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
Seems a little strange that a 458 win mag out does a 585 nyati,577 t rex, 577 nitro, 500 Jeff, and a 500 A square.

Man, that was only for the WHIMP Index, forget about it!

WHIMP Index = WHOMP/WHUMP

WHOMP is at the muzzle end of the rifle.
WHUMP is at the butt end of the rifle.

WHIMP Index = No good!

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Cable68,

I liked the approach taken by Kevin Robertson "Doctari" in his book "Africa's most dangerous" he uses a modified Taylor KO formula that takes into account caliber and SD, this credits the longer for caliber bullets and heavier for caliber bullets.
I read the book a while ago so I hope I am not misquoting his principles.
But the concept was sound. Take a look and decide for your self.
Nitro450exp

It's been a while since I read that.

Actually what I was originally thinking about (and it still crosses my mind from time to time) is to come up with an index of sorts (and of couse these are pure BS anyway) that would show if there is a point in diminishing returns, where you pay a whole lot of extra recoil but don't get that much extra knockdown/killing power. (As a guestimate that might be in the 416-470NE range?)

Of course this is maninly a mental exercise and like all things shooting the real world results differ from paper predictions.