What to call the true Nitro Express loading (heavy bullet and heavy cordite charge) of the obsolete .395-caliber 400 Nitro For Blackpowder 3"?

In the progression from black powder to cordite express loadings, the "400" started as a rimmed .395 in the 1880's, for Martini and DR, and had a final "light cordite" loading in the form of the 400NFBP3" maybe loaded as late as 1902: .395-caliber, 230-grain bullet, 47 grains of cordite.

The 400 Purdey 3" Light Express was loaded with .405-caliber bullet of same 230-grain weight and same 47-grain cordite charge, possibly from 1905 on into the 1920's. Bullet diameter was the only difference really.

There has been much confusion of "Aliases" between these two cartridges.

1880's:
.395-caliber rimmed BP cartridges of various lengths from maybe 2.5" to 3.25"

Maybe 1902 or earlier:
400 Nitro for Blackpowder (3"): .395 caliber
Listed as "circa 1880" by John Donnelly who also said its "Other Name" was ".400 Purdey 3" "
Maybe Purdey started off making it in .395 and then later switched to .405?

Maybe 1905 to late 1920's:
400 Purdey (3") Light Express : .405 caliber
Aliases for this include all the above and more:
.400 Purdey 3"
10.2x76R
.400 Purdey 3" Nitro-Express (230-grain bullet at 2050 fps)
.400 3" Straight
.400 Nitro Express 3"
.400 Nitro For Black Powder 3"
.400 Purdey
.400 Black Powder Express
.400 Purdey Nitro Express
.400 Purdey Light Rifle Express

And besides that, there is the 450/400 Nitro Express 3" and 3.25". Which of these is called the 400 Jeffery Nitro Express? Both? Just add the 3" or the 3.25" designator?

It is clear that there has never been a properly evolved and correctly named 400 Nitro Express.

This would require evolution with .395-grain bullets of increasing weight and increasingly energetic powder charge in the same rimmed 3" case, in this progression:
400 Black Powder
400 Black Powder Express
400 Nitro For Black
400 Nitro Express

It seems clear to me that the only true heir to the title of 400 Nitro Express is the 400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3") when it is stoked up in modern brass with heavier bullets and a full Nitro Express powder charge.

I suggest .395-caliber/400-grain bullet at 2150 fps using 65.5 grains of RL-15.

What is that conversion formula for Cordite to RL-15 so that I may state the charge in cordite equivalent?

Question:
Please read the background info, sparse as it may be, and pick a name or suggest something better, please. Any serious or silly comments appreciated, thanks.

What to call the final evolutionary stage of the .395 caliber 400 NE for BP 3" cartridge?

Choices:
400 Nitro Express
400 Nitro Express 3-Inch
400 Nitro Express Original
400 Nitro Express One-And-Only
400 Nitro Express Long Overdue

 

Some of the enthusiasm I've been reading here about this long-ignored old cartridge must have rubbed off on me. I'd also like to see it succeed once again. So FWIW I voted for the more traditional .400 Nitro Express 3".

someoldguy,
You understand.
Must be something about us old guys thinking about what would work well when fired from a sitting position in our wheelchairs, or from a kneeling rest utilizing our 4-point walkers padded with an adult diaper.

Will the young whippersnappers be able to concentrate long enough to understand the question?

One does: boomstick

There is another old guy who understands, besides prof242: Dave Hoffman Davison of CH4D.

He has 2 sets of 400 Purdey 3" dies on the shelf, but they are for .405-caliber bullets.

He has never made a set of dies for the obsolete .395 version but says he can do so for only $145 per set, if I get him the chamber reamer drawing made by Dave Manson.

I'll do that and go ahead and add CH4D to the .395 family.

BTW, the 400 BPE dies that were formerly offered at www.springfieldminutemen.com were also .405 bullet diameter, and made by CH4D.
Thanks, Charles Helm.

Awright Awready, tell Dave Hoffman of CHD I wanna set a dies too.
Now, I voted, after much deliberation, on the .400 Nitro Express Original. Not much justification, only a feeling. Would it make any difference if I had voted for the .400 Nitro Express 3"? Not a bit. Either would be fine with me. When you send your #1 in RIP, mine will be right behind it.

prof242,
No worries, I'll order two sets and send one to you, you can pay me back in bullets.
Just be patient. You gotta build that .395 Ruger Max first. Dave Manson himself said the reamer will go out no later than Friday. Two weeks ago Dara said today.
Patience.

We could always make it the 400 Nitro Express 3" Original ... Maybe best choice of all and not listed above. I got too cute with the last two choices.
400 Nitro Express Original 3"

Ron,
that simply won't do... you can't call it the 400 NEO

jeffe,

400 NE3O
400 C3PO
400 R2D2

Which of the above?

Hey,
The exchange of ideas here is great.

400 Nitro Express Original 3"

400 NEO3"

"Four Hundred Neo Three Inch"

"Fo'hunerd Neo": Not just for neophytes.

What about... 40-90 Straight like Winchester did when they introduced it in 1885 as a 3 1/4" long case. This way you can actually buy the brass.

Rich
DRSS
knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

The Missing Link has a name and he's on the Political forum!

I voted 400 Nitro Express 3".


Other goofy options, just for fun:

400 Nitro Express Lost And Found (NELAF), or Lost Now Found (NELNF).

400 Nitro Long Lost Express 3" (NLLE3), aka Nelly.

Cheers,
Canuck

Good ones Canuck. Quite charming, especially Nelly, good, respectful pet name for prof242's pretty gun. Mad Max and Nelly, quite the romantic couple.

Alas, the 400 Nelly can't replace the 400 Neo as cartridge designation. Here's why.

Imagine THE MATRIX: 400 as the Part Four sequel:

Neo, played again by that Toronto native Keanu Reeves, grows bored in the post apocalyptic world so he fires up the virtual reality machine and offers virtual safaris for dinosaurs, using, of course, an especiallly pretty .400 NEO 3" called Nelly.

Just call it obsolete... And forget about it.

Get a 405 Winchester reamer.

You can get brass and bullets for it most anyplace.

Screw that!
This is turning into a lifelong commitment. No, not a commitment of me to a mental institution, but a commitment to new life for the .395 caliber.
Amen.

Whimpy .405 with stubby 300-grainer compared:

Rip

If you need more "power" than the 405, just get a 450/400.

Forget that .395 small bore wimpy stuff.

Get a mans gun, a "real" .400.

quote:

someoldguy,
You understand.
Must be something about us old guys thinking about what would work well when fired from a sitting position in our wheelchairs, or from a kneeling rest utilizing our 4-point walkers padded with an adult diaper.

Not in the "dipeys" yet, but I have learned that you don't put the brakes on your wheelchair when firing a .600 Nitro. It'll turn you over! Just let the recoil propel you backwards, that way you'll get a head start on the elephant/buffalo in case you miss.

Actually, I do understand the love for a fine old rifle and the desire (almost a need) to get it "running" again, despite its obsoleteness. You could probably be better served by another "400" cartridge, but that's not the point. I suspect you just love that old rifle and want to return it to some of its past glory!

Good luck to you, sir!

RIP -- how about the 400 NNN or N3 -- the 400 Nitro Not Necessary.........

Sorry RIP, couldn't resist......

to get more energy out of it , why not use the 450 NE case and make it into an "mini" edition of the 450 Assegai, but only with 395 bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
to get more energy out of it , why not use the 450 NE case and make it into an "mini" edition of the 450 Assegai, but only with 395 bullets?

The Name Choice would be for me .400 R.I.P

Ah well, might as well join in. How about the .400 Viagra? It definitely is a "straight" case! Also, we "middle-aged" gentlemen could make statements such as, "My 400 Viagra is better looking than your 400 Viagra." Think of the looks we'd get at parties.


Ron: Bullets for dies? You've got it partner. You just tell me what you want and I'll get them to you.
Max

Using the k.i.s.s. principal

400 nitro express

The non k.i.s.s. nomenclature

400 original with the 395 bullet was black powder but now its smokeless so its now a nitro express 3". Or for short

400 o.w.t.395.b.w.b.p.b.n.i.s.s.i.n.a.n.e.3"

But considering headstamps 400 N.E. is the best.

Good for people who like to hunt D.G. with a classic cart who dont like recoil. Recoil is between a 338 win mag and the 375 h+h. according to the recoil calculator

I've always liked this cartridge, but never owned a gun in it, much less one that would handle modern loads like this.
It would make a grand black bear round. Or for panthers(as we call them here in East Texas).
Not sure, even with modern loadings, if I'd take it against anything bigger.
For that, I'd still say .450-400, at the very least.
Still, the .400 3" would make a very nice, all-around gun for North america.

Since more than a few here advocate the 9,3x62 (euroshnitzel 35 whelen) for hunting buff but not stopping buff I think this would be a good hunting round with a back up like most buff hunts are. If the lighter recoil helps you shoot better that makes a good argument for a bigger bullet at old school velocities.

reaming out 29 thou on a 9,3x74 double would make this an affordable double to boot. and you would be getting an uber classic too

Given the choice of the 9,3x74, the 9,3x62 and a 400 nitro or the like i'd go for the bigger bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
What about... 40-90 Straight like Winchester did when they introduced it in 1885 as a 3 1/4" long case. This way you can actually buy the brass.

Rich
DRSS
knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Was this the grand pappy that started it all???

From what I can find the 40-90 was a 403 bullet but rcbs has them in both 403 and 408.

What is the oldest 40 bullet dia.? is it 395? then purdey made it into 405.

I see bullets in 395, 401, 403, 406, 408, 409 and lastly 411 with Hornady doing a compromise in 410 so it dont blow up older guns.

It seems every gun maker tried to make a proprietary 400 and messed things up.

Yes, it got all screwed up when the first screwer changed the bullet diameter from the .395 original.

Want a 4000 ft-lb/40,000 psi/low recoil load for doubles in 400NEO?
400 grainers at just over 2100 fps from a 27" barrel. SD of that bullet is .366. Jacketed lead or hard cast lead will work in a 12" twist.

340-grain GSC bullets (SD = .311) at 2400 fps and under 50,000 psi is for a Ruger No. 1, but also trustworthy in any of the modern doubles, soon to be mass produced in this caliber.

I don't ever want a bolt action with shorter than 23" barrel if I have my druthers. The single shot and double rifles with 27" barrels are the same OAL as a 23" bolt action.

To prevent firing of the new 400NEO ammo in those Damascus barreled hammer guns in 400NFBP3", common as they are, a simple plan:

Load the 400NEO to 3.75" COL with bullets that will not chamber in the old antique guns with their short throats.

The modern 400NEO loads will beat the pants off the .405 Winchester and 450/400 NE's.

This gives us an excuse for 400-grain bullet development while we are waiting for the 340-grain GSC's. That was a pretty poor telephone connection last time I roused prodigal Gerard.

O.K.,
I can read the tea leaves.
The name is simply this:

400 Nitro Express

There can be no other, and the name is self explanatory to anyone knowing the history and conventions. "Original" and "3-inch" and ".395 caliber" are implicit in just calling it the 400 Nitro Express. 400 NE. Simple as that.

Any other cartridge calling itself the 400 NE is just a pretender and needs qualifier verbiage appended to the name.

The 400 Nitro Express needs no qualifiers.

There can be only one.

400 N.E. is good plain and simple but the longer version can have the length denotation of 400 N.E. 3 1/4" so their can be two and not confuse them but the 3" would be more popular due to the avaliability of the 3" brass to be sure.

This is more like a cigarette than a cigar but both will kill ya

will the "cigarettes" be more addicting?

.400NE 3" and 3 1/4" cases...or the American 40-90 Sharps Straight.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Maybe a 5" long .395 caliber version would be useful too! Kind of like the "Robusto" of 400's!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
.400NE 3" and 3 1/4" cases...or the American 40-90 Sharps Straight.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

40-90 sharps straight





shot out of this...



the Nitro Express name is a big hook.

But there was this matter of .395 bullet caliber in BP Martinis back in the 1880's, then a .395 caliber "400" Nitro For Black Powder 3" loading, and the total failure to carry this on into a full Nitro Express load with heavier bullets.

Cordite didn't mix well with the slim case and heavy bullets.

Modern powders and bullets will mix very well.

Stick to .395 caliber and 3" case here guys.

Yes there were all kinds of "400's" with various bullet calibers (even .395) and straight and bottlenecked cases from 2-3/8" to 3-1/4" way back in the 1800's.

We are trying to be faithful to the original 400NFBP3" that should have evolved into a 400NE straight 3" case.

Now it is possible with modern powders, bullets, and 12" twist.

Guys, Here we have an historical cartridge, historical bullet diameter, yet one that will perform exceptionally well. Lets keep it simple with the .400NE designation. If someone wants to make it longer, then just add your length to the base of the case...if we can get the brass we want with blank headstamps.
Now as far as calling it Nelly, don't think this is going to happen, unless a real live Nelly shows up on my doorstep.

I realy like the idea of the reserection of the historical and now potent heir to the ubercool name 400 N.E.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I realy like the idea of the reserection of the historical and now potent heir to the ubercool name 400 N.E.

Res-erection? Now potent heir?
Would you be thinking about the Johann Peterlongo gunmaking firm of Innsbruck, Austria established in 1854 and wiped out by WWI? Their proprietary cartridges only went up to 9.0mm bullet caliber.
8x69 Peterlongo
8x71 Peterlongo
8x59R Peterlongo
9x69R Austrian
9x71 Peterlongo
9x71R Peterlongo

10.03x76R Peterlongo never existed but would be a good name for a res-erection.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
RIP -- how about the 400 NNN or N3 -- the 400 Nitro Not Necessary.........

There are many things in this world that are not necessary, both good things and bad things.

I could just see it. My own partial redesion of one of Johann's cartridges, Max's Peterlongo!
But then I'd just be accused of bragging. Hey its late, I'm drinking a libation and I can dream if I want to.

Max,
Yep, the 400 NE gives me a resurrection without even getting into any creative nomenclature.

Hard cast lead? Size down some store bought .410 diameter lead grease-grooved RN 400-grainers to .395? .368" diameter in the grease grooves.

Just bite the bullet and get a mold and a pot of wheel weights?

RIP, I've ordered some cast bullets in several weights. When they get here, I'll size them down so they'll be ready when your die set arrives. I do think that 400 grain cast bullets will be the "fun" round for general shooting. I only wish I'd have one for this hunting season. Oh Well, next year. And I'll have to find one of those British sports car caps with the snap brim in blaze orange.

It should be hencforth known as the 400-3" RIP, but it does question your endowdness, is that a word, if not it is now..

Perhaps you should change your monaker from RIP to "Three Inch"