?

Alf:

I have one of the upstart 416 Rugers, and I love it. Could have tried any of the others, but set my mind on this, and will dance with it. Can't wait for my dies so I can experiment with all sorts of loads, but stuck with factories for right now. The C&C bullets are probably the only way we will get 400 grain bullets up to the task.

I agree that the length of the 400 Barnes bullet is a problem, but as you can see from the article below, it will perform great with the 350 grain X-bullet and whomp just about anything that walks this old marble! In every caliber I have, a reduction of 10-15% weight has proven best with X's and TSX's.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com..._wildcatting_200806/

The WSM's sort of have the same issue and they are proving popular.

I am in the same camp as Blank. I am impressed with the 416 Ruger...and it takes a lot to impress me. Plenty of gusto and a lot less painful than my 458 Lott. I am awaiting dies as well and have a box of 350gr TSX to try out. This one is a winner.

Alf
it matches/slightly beats the 416 remington, in a standard length action. Yes, it is all its reported to be.
400gr at 2400 fps, no problem -

don't give me the pressure arguement... the 458 win and lott are loaded to the same pressure, as well as 7 rem and 338 win ..

Its not as large as my 416, by about 2 grains, and accomplishs exactly the same thing.. maximum results from a standard length action

?

I have two .375H&H rifles, P-64 Mod. 70s and a lovely Browning Safari in .458WM, BUT, I NEED a .416 and am contemplating a Ruger. A person bashing about the BC wilderness would be very well served with one of these, IMHO, and friends of mine have used the Rem. version here a lot and even the Rigby.

So, MY question is, what is it like with the 400 gr. Nosler PT., as I am not a TSX shooter? Can one safely reach 2400 fps with this bullet and what might the loads be?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"don't give me the pressure arguement... the 458 win and lott are loaded to the same pressure, as well as 7 rem and 338 win .. "

Sorry but um uh ????? who said anything about pressure ??????

Simply this: if you are going to be using a Barnes 400 gr TSX or similar length bullet and you wish to shoot it in a Ruger rifle will the net case capacity be enough to meet the numbers of the Remmington? No more no less, just that.

Yes - the case capacity is larger than the rem, and the DESIGNED ammount of bullet inside the case is identical.

It will met or beat the remington
period
full stop

?

Even if it spits out the monos @ only 2150 what would that not kill???

the answer is: you can't match factory velocities yet, and the oal is severely limited by the standard length magazine box if goes in. I joined a health club, and am working out five days a week so I will be able to work a bolt with a 3/8ths of an inch longer bolt throw fast enough to make me confident enough to go back to Africa with my CZ 416 Rigby hunting DG.
The advantage of the rugger in the field is ZERO.
The rugger is tapped out with factory loads, while the Rigby has another 250-300fps left with handloads. The Rigby load at the same speed puts 50% less pressure on the rifle, running at 42K vs 60+K pressures.

It is all marketing double-speak, just like its little brother the 375.

This is not the second coming of Thor's Hammer boys, it's just a different way to accomplish the same job. Tell me all about it after the 100th AR guy comes back from Africa having shot Cape Buffalo and Elephant cleanly with one. Right now, all the hunting reports are from gunwhores who got a free trip just to write it up all wonderful. You could send me to Africa with a slingshot hunting elephant and the report would come back that I hit one hard, but the PH followed up "just to keep him from dying a lingering, painful death...".

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

the 416 Ruger

Good deer round ...

lf,
I see the problem... your numbers don't jive, on overall length of the 416 ruger -- MAX length is slight shorter than 3.4, about .020 is normal.


AMMOGUIDE sets the case capacity (which is somewhat lower than some others, but it doesn't matter)
416 rem - 97.7 gr
375 ruger 94.6 gr
doesn't have 416 ruger as yet ...

assuming 2.5 gr "pick up" for going to .416m then the 416 ruger will be about 97.1gr ..

If you PROPERLY seat the bullet, to case length + 0.800, in both cases, you wind up with spec length

ruger
2.580 + .8 = 3.38 -- fits perfectly in mag

Remington
2.85+.8 = 3.65 -

In other words, there is less than a grain difference in case, and IDENTICAL displacement by bullet.

Why is this so hard?

Rich,
give the ruger bashing a BREAK--
after all, the 416 weatherby CLOBBERS the factory 416 rigby loads

"severly limited OAL" .. MY EYE..
0.800" + case length, remm, ruger, rigby, or weatherby.. even taylor.

Same thing as the .458 winmag/lott/dakota/weatherby

same as the 470 captick

0.800+case length ...

man, guys, bashing away, but use FACTS....

Don't you drive a 450 dakota, rather than 450 rigby? HEH

MANY published reloading manuals have taken the 375 ruger past the FACTORY loads of 375 HH. You know this is the case, and the ruger has HIGHER capacity than the HH case.

"Can't" match factory loads? Hardly - the ruger has published loading data that matches hornady factory loads.

dang, ya'll, get over the ruger being at least as good as the HH based cases.

?

Alf,
Sorry, was overreacting to Rich's constant (and odd-for-a-wildcatter) bashing of ruger products.

Refigure it as a 3.38 OAL, and you'll see that there's nearly no difference between it and the 416 rem .. and that one EASILY does 2400FPS with a 400gr pill

what's funny is this round "obviates" my 416 AR -- but I like it anyway .. it is a great round, and engineered to fit the solution perfectly .. take a standard action and make the round perform perfectly, and at its best possible delivery in that platform.

Just for the record, the .416, .458, .475, and .510 bullets are generally .800 from the cannalure to nose... Hornady DID change it on some of their old bullets, with MUCH complaint.

If you figure case+1.00 inches, you get bullet+clearence for feeding in the mag.

Works most of the time.

Can you seat a bullet out longer? Sure .. with the same loads, it goes slower, and with more powder it goes faster ...

But, that's not how its designed ... if you have a FIXED oal to compare to, 3.65 and 3.4, then back into it, you find the powder capacity CONSUMED is a constant.

it's really that simple

quote:

416 rem - 97.7 gr
375 ruger 94.6 gr

Talk about differences. I have 3 sources listing 416Rem Mag capacity. Ranging from 97.7 to 107.4. Why I always measure my own.

I have not shot the Ruger or Rigby. I've shot the 416 Rem and I think I shot Jeffe 416. Are they the same?? different??? I won't lose any sleep over it because I would be willing to bet anything on the recieving end would not know the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the answer is: you can't match factory velocities yet, and the oal is severely limited by the standard length magazine box if goes in. I joined a health club, and am working out five days a week so I will be able to work a bolt with a 3/8ths of an inch longer bolt throw fast enough to make me confident enough to go back to Africa with my CZ 416 Rigby hunting DG.
The advantage of the rugger in the field is ZERO.
The rugger is tapped out with factory loads, while the Rigby has another 250-300fps left with handloads. The Rigby load at the same speed puts 50% less pressure on the rifle, running at 42K vs 60+K pressures.

It is all marketing double-speak, just like its little brother the 375.

This is not the second coming of Thor's Hammer boys, it's just a different way to accomplish the same job. Tell me all about it after the 100th AR guy comes back from Africa having shot Cape Buffalo and Elephant cleanly with one. Right now, all the hunting reports are from gunwhores who got a free trip just to write it up all wonderful. You could send me to Africa with a slingshot hunting elephant and the report would come back that I hit one hard, but the PH followed up "just to keep him from dying a lingering, painful death...".

Rich
Buff Killer

no question, you're a tool

Just to add a counter balance to Buff Killer Rich you can call me Bear Killer Phil and I'll say that I think the Ruger 375 and their new 416 are what the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby should have been in the first place.

Jeffe,

I'm not bashing ruggers just for something to do, they started this!! Niether of the rounds offers anything except a standard action. The factory velocity is very difficult to match with reloads, and 3/8ths of an inch shorter bolt throw in indiscernable while shooting. There are a few people here who believe all the ad-speak, and think they got a 378 or 416 Wbee in a 30-06 length action. Balderdash. Personally, I would take one of your AR cartridges in the same caliber over the rugger.
They offer no reason to upgrade. 375RUM, now there's an improvement. If Remington had been smart, they would have called the RUMs .___Jefferies.

BK Phil, only in your imagination buddy...

There's nothing wrong with the short & fat ruggers, they just are not going anywhere. Let's revisit this topic in ten years when people are asking if anybody knows where they can buy brass or loaded ammo.


Rich
Buff Killer

?

Lets not discount that the shorter, fatter cases are more efficient burners of powder...so the "margin" is a good bit smaller. Plus, the ruger is beltless and just looks cool...and serious. 10 years from now...whats a 416 Remington? Are they new?

If they ever make it with a 23" or 24" ala-African barrel I might have one.

I just don't like that stubby 20" barrel sacrificing 100 fps off the top.

I have a stainless Ruger M77 Mark II .416 Taylor that will do over 2400 fps with 400-grain cup&core bullets with no signs of pressure, with a 26" barrel.

Yes, the .416 Ruger will almost equal a .416 Remington ... but I would not want a .416 Remington chopped down to 20" either.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

To me any cartridge that resembles a Newton cartridge is a winner. Like Phil Shoemaker said, the 375 and 416 Ruger are what the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby should have been.

Also, I've made a commitment: I bought a 416 Ruger PTG reamer. Too late to stop now!

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

From what I have read it wasn't meant to duplicate the 416 Rigby or Remington. It is meant to be a 450/400 in bolt form. A light recoiling rifle suitable for anyone to shoot.

How does it stack up to that?

if "what we had is good enough" we'd all still be shooting 8x57 ...

the 303 british is an excellent round, why have a 30-03 (no typo here) the 30-03 was FINE, why update it to 30-06 .....

nothing wrong with a 375 lee speed .. and along comes this new punk, the 375HH ..
then some punk dreams up the 458 winmag

what's wrong with the the 404? you don't NEED a 416 rigby ...

the 505 gibbs works just fine, why the 500 jeffe

we've had the 460 weatherby for 50 years, who would be dumb enough to want a 450 dakota

the 458winmag is good, the 460 weatherby is awesome, why a 458lott/ackley/watts? (hell, you can chamber all of these in watts chamber, except the weatherby)

get it NOW?

If you don't, you are being purposely and intentionally stubborn.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
From what I have read it wasn't meant to duplicate the 416 Rigby or Remington. It is meant to be a 450/400 in bolt form. A light recoiling rifle suitable for anyone to shoot.

How does it stack up to that?

The taylor? the 404 is meant to be a 450/400 in a bolt .. neither have anything to do with the 416 ruger

d99, the ruger spec is 2400/400gr from a 20"barrel .. and ALL FIELD REPORTS state it makes it. If you chopped a rigby off to 20" and USED FACTORY AMMO, you would get 2200 .. but that's an anomoly on the huge case and slowish powder

my 416 ar (slightly larger) easily hits 2500 from a 24" barrel .. i have no doubt it can make 2400 from a 20" barrel ... its DESIGNED to, by some of the best in the industry, and certainly from industry leaders

I don't know about the ruger vs the remington as far as ballastics as I've not shot either. But the rigby version definately has an edge as far as being able to improve on factory loads.
In my mind the 416 ruger equates to a 338-06, the 416 rem equates to the 338wm and the rigby equates to a 338/378. Meaning no comparision between the ruger and rigby if we want max loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
BK Phil, only in your imagination buddy...

No, Mr Shoemaker has killed many bears over the decades. It is documented.

However, almost every time he compliments Roogers, he gets paid to do so.

What's your excuse, Rich?

Not that your condemnation is falling on deaf ears. I hear you.

In my view, Ruger could have marketed their necked-up 375 as the cheapest way to owning a bottom end big bore the same way Lee Precision markets their products--our stuff is the cheapest way to get 'er done. But, apparently, Ruger has lots of ad men to feed, and to keep their jobs they came up with a way to hype every little nit-picking thing about their invention to make it sound like its the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's all about 'perception.' The smoke and mirrors to make their product stand out from the crowd. Their job is to bring out the 'want' in the potential buying public, as there is very little 'need.'
I'm quite sure that if Ruger slashed their ad budget and lowered the price of their rifles by $100, they'd sell even more.

quote:

...The Rigby load at the same speed puts 50% less pressure on the rifle, running at 42K vs 60+K pressures.
It is all marketing double-speak, just like its little brother the 375....
Rich

Why is 416ruger at 60+kpsi an issue?

So how much velocity will you loose ?
I mean, you can compare the 416 Ruger to the Rigby or any other 416 if you want,
But is not better just to decide if the new round will push the bullet fast enough to do the job ?
I have heard these aguments about some of my favorite cartridges.
Does 100 or 150 FPS with a particular bullet reall matter than much ?
I guess the way I would aproach the issue is 1st , do I really need to use the 400 grain barnes. If the answer is yes then how fast do I need to push it?. and lastly will the Ruger 416 allow me to push it to that speed ?
If yes, buy the ruger. If not buy somthng else.
I think that Ruger case is a good one myself.
I like barnes bullets but I bet what ever bullet Hornady puts in the round will work just fine.
...tj3006

It seems to me that the .416 Ruger suffers from the same problem as a lot of the other new short cartridges - they have short necks and there's not enough room in the cases to handle the full-weight for caliber monolithic bullets.

?

I had vowed to stay out of this.

I am not doubting that the Ruger cartridge will kill Buffalo.

But, why this incessant Ruger love here from US hunters? Remember how Wm Ruger Sr. sold all of us up the river with his support of the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban? Kind of similar to Mr. Cooper and his support of Obama?

I just refuse to have anything to do with Ruger, although I brought lots of their stuff prior to 1994. I might consider buying a rifle in the cartridge if someone else made it, and if I didn't think there is no real advantage here.

Maybe this is too political, in which cas the mods can feel free to delete it.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

...The Rigby load at the same speed puts 50% less pressure on the rifle, running at 42K vs 60+K pressures.
It is all marketing double-speak, just like its little brother the 375....
Rich

Why is 416ruger at 60+kpsi an issue?

Good question Trax!

The .375 H&H Magnum, much beloved by this same group of individuals slamming the .416 Ruger, has a SAAMI MAP of 62,000 PSI/52,000 CUP and a CIP MAP of 62,000 PSI/53,000 CUP so there is no pressure issue with the .375 Ruger and .416 Ruger and their SAAMI MAP of 62,000 PSI. Still we keep hearing about the atrocious pressure levels of the horrible .375/.416 Rugers while the .375 H&H is the greatest cartridge ever designed. Go figure!

I recollect discussions on the AR in the not too distant past that slammed the.416 Remington Magnum with its SAAMI MAP of 65,000 PSI/54,000 CUP and CIP MAP of 62,000 PSI/54,000 CUP due to its extremely high pressure levels when compared to the utterly fantastic and exceptionally large .416 Rigby with its CIP MAP of 47,000 PSI/41,000 CUP.

One must recollect that Lapua had to strengthen the case and case head webbing for the .338 Lapua Magnum, a derivative of the .416 Rigby, in order to withstand the MAP 68,000 PSI of the new cartridge as the .416 Rigby case failed when approaching 60,000 PSI. So if you really want a high performing cartridge – based upon the .416 Rigby – that you must utilize the Lapua Magnum case else it’ll never reach its potential. Here’s hoping your shoulder holds up also.

Of course we have the ongoing argument relating to the .458 Winchester Magnum with its CIP MAP of 62,000 PSI vis-à-vis the .458 Lott with its CIP MAP of 62,000 PSI. The Lott is better because of greater powder capacity therefore greater velocity while no one questions whether the WinMag should have ever been loaded with a 510 gr. bullet from the factory, a bullet with a SD of 0.347.

The historical benchmark for elephant hunting, prior to the Brit stupidity over India and Sudan, was the large bore 450 Nitro Express. It was known for its penetration and killing ability with its .458 caliber using a 480 gr. solid cup and core bullet having a SD of 0.327 moving at the “magic” 2150 fps. So one would have to say that any cartridge having a bullet of legal caliber with a SD of 0.327 and sufficient ballistics performance to match 450 Nitro Express would be a benchmark cartridge for elephant hunting.

Then we have the historical benchmark large-medium bore penetrators:
- .408 caliber 400 gr. bullet with SD of 0.343
- .410 caliber 400 gr. bullet with SD of 0.340, and finally
- .416 caliber 400 gr. bullet with SD of 0.330

Then we hear that if you really want penetration that you need the heavy for caliber bullets ….so....we “gotta have” heavy bullet for caliber:
- .366 caliber 320 gr. bullet with SD of 0.341
- .375 caliber 350 gr. bullet with SD of 0.356
- .416 caliber 450 gr. bullet with SD of 0.371
- .423 caliber 450 gr. bullet with SD of 0.359, and finally
- .458 caliber 550 gr. bullet with SD of 0.375

And yet we have those individuals who state we only need the minimum DG legal medium bore cartridges with 0.300 SD we have:
- .366 caliber 286 gr. bullet with SD of 0.305, and
- .375 caliber 300 gr. bullet with SD of 0.305

Then alternatively have the stated benchmark large medium bore “all-arounder”:
- .423 caliber 400 gr. bullet with SD of 0.319
Some 20th century African hunters and writers have questioned the penetration of the 404 Jeff on elephant. Perhaps the real issue was the construction of its solid cup and core bullet rather than its bullet weight. Especially considering that its SD is midway between the medium bore and the large bore benchmark standards.

We all know that many African elephant have been taken with the legendary .375 H&H with the later Kynoch construction solid bullets and the current Woodleigh solid construction bullets – all with a 0.305 SD.

Now we enter the world of the solid monometal bullets for use on African elephant and again hear that the new shorter DG cartridges can’t use the historical standard weight bullets of modern monometal construction.

Do they really require the benchmark standard 0.327 SD of the 450 Nitro Express, the heavy for caliber 0.375 SD, or can they do quite excellently with the 0.305 SD standard established by the .375 H&H Magnum when using monometal bullets for elephant or even of buffalo?

I believe this can easily be answered by the phenomenal success of the lighter than standard solid monometal bullets manufactured by Northfork and GSC. I doubt very seriously that a bull elephant could tell the difference between a brain shot from a 370 gr. Northfork monometal solid with 0.305 SD, a 380 gr. GSC monometal solid with 0.314 SD, or a 400 gr. Barnes Banded Solid monometal with 0.330 SD.

Now for bullalo the pundits of the AR and NE forums state that one only needs to use a premium cup and bonded core bullet with a 0.300 SD for success. A .416 caliber 400 gr. Barnes TSX monometal bullet with its 0.300 SD will not kill a buffalo any better than Northforks .416 caliber 370 gr. bonded core SP bullet or .416 caliber 370 gr. cup point monometal bullet both with 0.305 SD.

Geez…this thread has noodle around between bullet weight, powder capacity, pressure levels, to short, to long, to long and fat, etc. so much that one would think the participants were of the female rather than male gender.

Ok enough pontificating from me….except...Use whatever rings your chimes as long as it is legal where you are hunting and that it will humanely kill the game that you are hunting – by this I mean quickly kill rather than wound with a correctly placed shot. I don’t care if it’s short and fat or long and fat or somewhere in between!

William Ruger Sr. is long dead so he has no say in the direction the company goes. And I understand that Cooper was removed by the corporate board and that they’ve divested themselves of support for Obama. I have nothing against Ruger now that they’re making a very good and reasonably priced CRF rifle. I’ve never been enthralled with Cooper but may look at them down the road if they hold true to USA gun owners rather than the antis.

And finally…I’m very happy when any factory develops new cartridges that give the gun/hunter consumer better choices….especially when that factory produces the perfect brass for those great and historical .30 Newton derivative cartridges! Way to go Hornady!!!

If Holland and Rigby had introduced the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds in the early 1900's and today Ruger announced a new 375 with a belted, tapered case that held less powder and required a magnum length action and and even larger 416 round - which rounds would the nostalgic folks be bad mouthing ?

And would they fall in the same category as the ultra-mags?

quote:

If Holland and Rigby had introduced the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds in the early 1900's and today Ruger announced a new 375 with a belted, tapered case that held less powder and required a magnum length action and even larger 416 round - which rounds would the nostalgic folks be bad mouthing ?

And would they fall in the same category as the ultra-mags?

Phil…Better yet, what would have happened had Chas. Newton been overcapitalized rather than undercapitalized and had good/knowledgeable rifle and cartridge, line and factory production supervision?
- Both Remington and Winchester would have loaded all of his cartridges up through today.
- We’d likely have not seen the updated RemChester M700/M70 standard on receivers with 3.6” length magazines rather vis-a-vis their earlier 3.4” magazines.
- Belts would never have been in vogue.
- The .300 H&H and the .375 H&H post WWII would have been allowed to die as has the .318 Westley Richards, the .333 Jeffery, and the .350 Rigby.
- The .470 Capstick would never have been commercially loaded.
- Roy Weatherby would have blown the sides out and double radiused the.30 Newton case for all of his “magnum” cartridges.
- We may have never had any commercial production action, other than the long Mauser and Brno, available except on a limited production basis.
- USA rifles chambered for the 3.6” to 3.9” COAL cartridges would be manufactured in a similar category as Ruger’s M77 Mark II Magnum rifle; read limited production and more costly.
- Ultra Mags? Not likely on a production basis with the larger base and rebated rim of the RUM case. If the factories offered non-limited production rifles with 3.6” magazine lengths then the relating 3.6” COAL cartridges would be based off of the .404 Jeffery case.
- And yes! Any introduction of cartridges exceeding the need for 3.4” magazines would result in lengthy arguments over their merits on the AR forum!
Anyway, these are my predictions.

Would we as gun owners be better today than we are? I’d like to have seen Newton succeed and his cartridges readily/commercially manufactured today. But then, had the Brits not initiated the .458 caliber prohibition in India and Sudan we most likely today wouldn’t have cartridges larger than that caliber commercially manufactured today except as limited production items for use in very expensive double rifles. And that’s a subject for someone else to ponder over.

Jim, for your 100th post you certainly put a lot of thought into it - and it's hard to argue with your logic.
I am waiting for Ruger to re-invent the 300 Newton.

Thanks Phil.

It’d be really great if Hornady produced the .30 Newton though I imagine they’d produce a .308 Ruger as a full length derivative of the .375 Ruger case instead…it would be nice but it would be nicer to have the Newton resurrected instead.

I have an FN Mauser receiver awaiting a new barrel and some action work to be transformed into a .30 Newton. A friend has offered the use of his .30 Newton finish chambering reamer built to Newton’s factory chamber specifications (somewhat different from the specifications most reamer manufacturers are using). So I’ll be able to use the reamer to have the barrel chambered and reloading dies produced to exacting specifications. It would have been done finished last year if the economy hadn’t tanked…if it doesn’t get worse over the next few months then the barrel and dies should happen by fall, followed by some action and stock work and hopefully my .30 Newton ready for spring use.