I just bought a medium powered double rifle chambered for 9.3X74R! The caliber is not a problem, as I see it. In that respect it is quite suited to a lot of hunting world wide! What I think most will find fault with is, that it is a O/U double rifle, with a single trigger, and an inertia cocked top barrel! It also is factory fitted with QD scope rings& bases. With the iron sights, which I intend changeing, it placed the first four shots of 286 gr soft points in a 2.5" group at 50 yds, from a standing position, off hand, not rested! I mounted a very light 4X scope on it this morning, and will see how it shoots off the bench, later.

Here is my question where do you think this rifle fits into African hunting? What application will it fit into, for members of the big five, if any?

I'll give my opinion on it's use, and my reason for buying it,after everyone has a chance to respond!

All opinions, cussings, and praise are welcome!

............. , or

For very personal reasons I could fall in love with that gun. Assuming reasonable accuracy, I'd use it for larger plains game and limited use on Buffalo. (Ray said it was all right) Further it'd be used for whitetails etc as well.

It might not be traditional but it's my style of gun.....where do I get one?

I am just mad that I hemmed and hawed to long with myself and didn't buy it...

I think it is fine for everything in Africa except probably ele, hippo, and rhino (if those we still really huntable)

MAC...I could never buy the big difference in sxs vs o/u...yeah there is difference but lets be serious...what you have to pull the front your front hand down an extra 3 inches to crack the action an extra inch...

Wan't to sell it too a poor guy who was slow on the up take...I mean you already got a couple doubles right...

In Africa, it would be like putting a square block in a round hole, you could force it but it ain't gonna be right....At any rate I personally would not hunt dangerous game with an over under...

MacD37,
Where does it fit????? In my gun safe right next to all my other toys...

Seriously, it would be a great gun for the larger plains game like eland, where it is almost perfect. Light for buff but with premium bullets you could do worse. The inertia trigger bothers me a little since one true advantage of a double rifle is separate trigger mechanisms but I could definitely live with it! Ain't any of 'em perfect for all applications...that's why we get to buy so many!

dont like o/u.. never have... you have to open the barrel nearly double what you have to on a sxs, no "sightin plane" if you need a snap shot, and, well, hmm, i don't think i've ever seen a period british O/u..

the caliber, with hand loads, is a decent round... might think of up to everything but the big 5+hippo, would depend on how well i shot it...

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
dont like o/u.. never have... you have to open the barrel nearly double what you have to on a sxs, no "sightin plane" if you need a snap shot, and, well, hmm, i don't think i've ever seen a period british O/u..

the caliber, with hand loads, is a decent round... might think of up to everything but the big 5+hippo, would depend on how well i shot it...

jeffe

quote:

In Africa, it would be like putting a square block in a round hole, you could force it but it ain't gonna be right....At any rate I personally would not hunt dangerous game with an over under...

Ray Atkinson

BUT...I though the primary purpose of double rifles was the fast second shot that it gives you???

If we're worried about the 3rd and 4th shots wouldn't everyone be using bolt guns???

Either you use a SXS double for the fast second shot, so an over and under would be the same thing or you use it for a fast reload in which case a bolt gun would be a better choice.

As far as the sight plane goes, one of the biggest reasons competitive shotgunners give for using over and unders is that the single sighting plane is much quicker and more accurate.

quote:

BUT...I though the primary purpose of double rifles was the fast second shot that it gives you???

If we're worried about the 3rd and 4th shots wouldn't everyone be using bolt guns???

Either you use a SXS double for the fast second shot, so an over and under would be the same thing or you use it for a fast reload in which case a bolt gun would be a better choice.

As far as the sight plane goes, one of the biggest reasons competitive shotgunners give for using over and unders is that the single sighting plane is much quicker and more accurate.

Frank, I have the greatest respect for traditions and side/side, double trigger doubles is where it's at in a traditional DGR gun.

I also have great respect for the opinions of folks that have been there and done that as Mr Atkinson has.

That said.....I know a few things about myself and without a doubt I'd be better off with a double O/U and a single trigger because of my deformed hands.

These opinions are of folks that don't live in my shoes nor yours. Temper their judgment with your own knowlege and get on with life.

IMO the same applies to PF guns and caliber selection to a degree. One would be a fool to ignor the opinions of a man like Ray Atkinson.....but a greater fool to not take your particular needs into the equation.

quote:

If we're worried about the 3rd and 4th shots wouldn't everyone be using bolt guns???

someone is forgetting modified lever actions (458 win mag blr ect ect)

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


Frank, I have the greatest respect for traditions and side/side, double trigger doubles is where it's at in a traditional DGR gun.

I also have great respect for the opinions of folks that have been there and done that as Mr Atkinson has.

That said.....I know a few things about myself and without a doubt I'd be better off with a double O/U and a single trigger because of my deformed hands.

These opinions are of folks that don't live in my shoes nor yours. Temper their judgment with your own knowlege and get on with life.

IMO the same applies to PF guns and caliber selection to a degree. One would be a fool to ignor the opinions of a man like Ray Atkinson.....but a greater fool to not take your particular needs into the equation.

The above is an absolutey perfect post offered by a man who uses his head. There are always those who require unusual things to match their own handicaps, or general abilities. I think that is one thing we forget when giveing advice to potentual hunters of dangerous game. In all cases, the advice I give is from my own experience with the rifles or game that is subject to the conversation. I have no physical handicaps, and the machanical aspect of firearms is from owning, and shooting all those mentioned in my posts. IOW, the advice given, by me, is given with the idea that there are no specially needed features by the reader. Those need to be taken on an individual basis. No advice is worth diddeldy, with out the applocation of common sense!

MaCD37- Well personally, if it was well regulated and shot well, I'd not be afraid to use it on ANYTHING! Kevin Robertson(author of the Perfect Shot) even says the 9.3X74R is adequate for ELE. I have no doubt that if you got the PEFECT SHOT it would be fine. I would not want to stand a charge with one though. But what's the chance of that? I have a chapuis 9.3X74R SXS double and it is fantastically accurate and LIGHT! I think it would be a decent Buff gun. Wherever a fast second shot is needed the double has no peers.
This from someone who now adores a CZ589 in 458 Lott! The only downside of the O/U is the difficulty of extracting unfired cartridges from the action. Like when getting back into the Bakke. It's nowhere as easy as with a SXS. I find the single barrel sight plane excellent for shooting and given the combination of accuracy, double rifle speed, WEIGHT, Knock down power and cost (3K) this thing is impossible to beat!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
BUT...I though the primary purpose of double rifles was the fast second shot that it gives you???

If we're worried about the 3rd and 4th shots wouldn't everyone be using bolt guns???

Either you use a SXS double for the fast second shot, so an over and under would be the same thing or you use it for a fast reload in which case a bolt gun would be a better choice.

As far as the sight plane goes, one of the biggest reasons competitive shotgunners give for using over and unders is that the single sighting plane is much quicker and more accurate.

The main reason for a double rifle, of any sort is, stone solid reliability, and no 2 is the availability of a very quick second shot, and you are right if all you needed were the two shots, the O/U would be the same. The truth is the first two are not all that is needed in most cases. With the fact that a re-load is most often needed, the O/U is way behind a S/S in that department! It has to be opened far more than the S/S to get to the bottom chamber, and is more likely to drop a rim over the extractor than the S/S which has the extractors UNDER the cartridges, instead of over or to the side! In this case the Bolt rifle would be better if a rappid reload was needed. The first two shots from the O/U double would be far ahaead of the bolt rifle, but the third and fourth, I fear, would be well behind the bolt rifle. In this case, what I'm saying is, the bolt rifle would be a better choice, that the double(O/U).

Now, between the bolt rifle with equally powerful, and recoiling rifles of bolt design, and S/S double rifle, the bolt rifle is NEVER better than a S/S double rifle with equally good opperators on each! Two good men shooting against each other, takeing the recovery time from recoil into consideration, the first shot from each will be equal, the second shot from the double will be far ahead of the bolt man, and with a reload by the double shooter, the third shot will be slightly behind the second shot of the bolt, and faster than the third shot from the bolt, and when the fourth shot comes from the double, it will be well ahaead of the bolt's fourth shot!

What I'm saying here is, the skilled man with a bolt rifle is never better than an equally skilled man with a S/S double rifle! You forget the bolt man not only must recover from recoil, but work a bolt between every shot, while the S/S double man only has to recover from recoil, and shoot between every two shots, the time it takes a good man to reload a double will not make him lagg behind the man with a bolt rifle, for four shots. The second shot from the double will be fired while the bolt man is still working the bolt to get to his second shot, and the bolt man will be working his bolt while the double man is re-loading, and the third shots will be close to equal, while the fourth shot from the double will be ahead of the fourth shot from the bolt!

However, this is getting away from the question asked here! What, if anything, does the O/U double rifle give away to the S/S double rifle, and what are the draw-backs to the single trigger of this O/U double rifle, and/or the recoil cocking of the top barrel of this O/U double rifle, compared to a S/S with two triggers, and that with both barrels cocked when the action is opened, and finallly, what is the place for the 9.3X74R, and this O/U double rifle in the fields of Africa, and/or North America?

I would agree with Rob with limitations on some of the big 5. I think you would have a tough time convincing shotgunners that shoot thousands of rounds with their over under single triggered guns that they aren't reliable enough. With any gun there is a regular cleaning that keeps them working properly. It's possible that with the different recoil (coming straight back with both barrels rather than left and right) that it could be faster to get on target. It is a pretty interesting gun choice. Come on Mac lets hear your reasoning.
Take good care,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The main reason for a double rifle, of any sort is, stone solid reliability, and no 2 is the availability of a very quick second shot, and you are right if all you needed were the two shots, the O/U would be the same. The truth is the first two are not all that is needed in most cases. With the fact that a re-load is most often needed, the O/U is way behind a S/S in that department! It has to be opened far more than the S/S to get to the bottom chamber, and is more likely to drop a rim over the extractor than the S/S which has the extractors UNDER the cartridges, instead of over or to the side!

Now that is a good reason that I didn't know about. I have a great deal of respect for the opinions of people who have been there and done that, I haven't shot anyything more dangerous than black bear and hogs.
This is the first reason I have ever seen for the superiority of a SXS over an O/U that makes sense.

Unless one is very lucky in his/her choice of boltguns (or rich enough to have one custom fitted!) the real reason for choosing a double gun is pointability. There may be some among the brotherhood whose Mausers come to the eye and shoulder as well as a good double, but I'm not one. I have to fit me to the rifle rather than the preferred other way 'round. On that basis the SxS has no advantage over the O/U. In the case of this rifle, since we are generally agreed that it isn't a charge stopper because its boring is only Class I, as a general game rifle for Africa it seems perfectly o.k. But then, I've only got 3 safari's under my belt so my opinion is much more limited in value than more experienced members. And that ain't meant sarcastically!

Yep, right next to your nice doubles in the gun case is where it should remain, unless you have an abundance of beer cans around the house that need killing!!

Give me a good Mauser or Win pre 64 for plainsgame, then I can shoot the ones on the other side of the canyon...

now comes the deeds of greatness from the double rifle nuts who have shot game at umpteen million yards with thei doubles!

O/U configuration

The O/U configuration is fine for general hunting, in my view, but is not well suited to DG hunting, in most cases. For the first two shot it is equal to the S/S if chambered for the same cartridge. That is, if both have double triggers, or both have a single selective trigger. The O/U must have both barrels machinicly cocked by opening the action, as well.
For the third and fourth shots, in a defence mode, the O/U takes back seat to the S/S in a big way. It is far easier to re-load a S/S than an O/U. The barrels of the S/s can be loaded similtaniously, and the O/U cannot be loaded so easily, by most people, myself included.

Single nonselective trigger

The non-selective trigger is a real draw-back to being able to select the type of bullet you want to shoot on the initial shot! As most doubles are carried with a soft in one barrel, and a solid in the other barrel. Since the non-selective trigger always fores the bottom barrel first you have no choice but to fire what ever is in the bottom barrel.At least if the trigger is selective, you do have the choice of which barrel you fir first. Since the only selective trigger you will see, will be on a double rifle that both barrels are cocked when the action is opened, that is the only place you will have a choice. Most O/Us have recoil cocked top barrel. this is not good on a dangerous game rifle.

Recoil cocked top barrel

The recoil cocked top barrel is a danger to it's shooter, in that first he has no choice whch barrel he fires first, and if he has a mis-fire with the first shot, the second barrel will not fire, and he is out of business till he reloads the bottom barrel. ....YIKES!!!
Addtionally, if that trigger happens to break, in any way, the rifle is out of service. At least if one trigger breaks on a double trigger rifle, or you get a miss-fire, you always have the other barrel.The non-sense about how reliable single triggers are in shotgun compitition, is just that non-sense. Just like on a passenger plane, there is always a back-up unit in case one fails, and you can take the word of someone who knows first hand, the componants in a passengr plane are VERY reliable, but they do sometimes fail, hence the back-up! It simply makes sense to prepare for the Murphy happening that always seems to always happen when you need it the least. The second trigger is that back-up! It makes little sense to depend on an item, that if broken, puts the whole rifle out of service. The single trigger is that one item that can place the whole rifle in the stone ax mode!

The chambering

In this case the 9.3X74R, is the chambering, and in most countries, is legal for the big five. Admittedly, it is minimum, and very light, for most of the big five. However, with proper bullets,and placement it will just "DO" for all the big five. That is not to say it is anywhere near the best choice for any of them. IMO,it does have application within the big five, in the right rifle, and under the right conditions. I have both S/S, and this O/U doubles chambered for the 9.3X74R, though they are drasticlly different in their setup! The S/S has double triggers, selective ejectors, cocking indicators, and Iron sights, and both barrels are cocked on opening. The O/U has single non-selective trigger, self cocking bottom barrel, and recoil cocked top barrel, cocked by the recoil of fireing the bottom barrel. With the proper bullets, and in the right bush, I would have no problem takeing on Cape Buffalo with the S/S, but I have my doubts about the same application with the O/U in question. I don't consider the 9.3X74R, or it's balictic twin the 9.3X62 rimless, to be stoppers, by any stretch of the imagination, but if used properly, is fine for general hunting of those "BITE-BACKS"!
The rifle being discussed here is a very nice, and accurate rifle, but it has some serious draw-backs for use on dangerous game. First it is O/U, secondly, it has a single non-selective trigger, and thrid, that trigger combined with a recoil cocked top barrel, it is simply, not designed properly for a dangerous game rifle, other than maybe Leopard, or Bear over bait. It would be fine for plains game hunting, especially since it is set up with QD scope rings, and bases from the factory, and the rifkle is extremely accurate. This alone make it anice rifle for Bait hunting, with a good lighted scope, for leopard, or bear over bait.

Quality of the rifle

The rifle is a Winchester Grand Eoropian, in a grade comparable to a pigeon grade Win 101, but with a Boar, deer, and sheep in the game sceens, it has exceptional wood, and quality checkering. There is some hand engraveing as well as machine engraveing, and all are fairly well done. It has QD factory mounted scope rings, and bases. The fit and finish are very well done, for a double rifle that origenaly sold for only $2995, back in 1977. For all practical purposes, the rifle is new, with no evidence of handeling at all, and all in it's fitted factory luggage case.

My reasons for buying it

I boufgt it, firstly, because it was a double rifle, chambered for a good cartridge, and with all the things that came with it from the factory, at a decent price! I will get a lot of use out of this rifle, here, Alaska,and Africa. My main use for it, as of now, is for hunting wild boar, deer, black bear,elk and moose in North America, and plains game, and Leopard over bait in Africa. I always have my S/S double rifle in the same chambering, for different applications, and bigger double rifles for the real bad boys!

Lastly, double rifle of any configuration are simply fun to own, and shoot! No other reason is needed!

Slimmer and taller rimed version of 9,3x62 with approx. 40MPa lower gas pressure (it's designed for them weaker break-open guns). You can think of it as .375 Flanged Magnum. You know, 9,3x62 is ALMOST as good as Brit .375 Belted Rimless Magnum NE.
While very well made those Olin-Kodensha O/U rifles are not known for their regulation, so I would check that first before making plans for any hunting treks!
9,3x74mm is one of Junkers (German landed gentry) favorite driven game cartridges.
It will handle "big varmints" like boar, elk, and moose rather nicely!

Maybe some good news if you're ever in a pickle and need that top barrel and the bottom didn't fire or can't fire and you need a single shot now.

I have seen on a couple of occasions a recoil cocked barrel cocked purposefully by whacking the butt on the ground. I know that I've seen a 101 done that way. Not sure if the barrel stays cocked on opening without firing. I'd try it with snap caps and some sort of padding.

JPK

quote:

What I think most will find fault with is, that it is a O/U double rifle, with a single trigger, and an inertia cocked top barrel!

Well it doesn't seem like most but I sure do. I have a 9.3 and have taken both Aus and Cape Buff with it and would again. Anything up to be not including Ele if I had a choice.

I would never take on any DG with any caliber with an inertial cocking mech for the second barrel. Shit happens in the dust, dirt and mud of the Hunting Field that never was heard of on the Sporting Clays Course.

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
While very well made those Olin-Kodensha O/U rifles are not known for their regulation, so I would check that first before making plans for any hunting treks!

This one regulate perfectly, with four shots, two from each barrel into a 2.5" group at 50 yds with open sights, off hand! I shot it only two hours after I bought it! I'm quite familier with the 9.3X74R as I have,other double rifles,and combination guns, so chambered, and have owned others over the years.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Maybe some good news if you're ever in a pickle and need that top barrel and the bottom didn't fire or can't fire and you need a single shot now.

I have seen on a couple of occasions a recoil cocked barrel cocked purposefully by whacking the butt on the ground. JPK

I think I'll pass on whacking a double rifle butt on the ground, Thank you!

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

What I think most will find fault with is, that it is a O/U double rifle, with a single trigger, and an inertia cocked top barrel!

Well it doesn't seem like most but I sure do. I have a 9.3 and have taken both Aus and Cape Buff with it and would again. Anything up to be not including Ele if I had a choice.

I would never take on any DG with any caliber with an inertial cocking mech for the second barrel. Shit happens in the dust, dirt and mud of the Hunting Field that never was heard of on the Sporting Clays Course.

I absolutely agree with you, on the need for a real cocking mechanism if I'm going in to the weeds with a stomper! This rifle wasn't bought for that reason anyway. It will likely take more Muledeer, and wild hogs, than anything else! I have a S/S 9.3X74R that I have every confidence in, and there are none of old SHOTGUN fixtures in it, I assure you!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yep, right next to your nice doubles in the gun case is where it should remain, unless you have an abundance of beer cans around the house that need killing!!

now comes the deeds of greatness from the double rifle nuts who have shot game at umpteen million yards with thei doubles!

I don't have any beer cans that need killing, but i might get a shot at one of the single malt bottles down at the DRSS hog hunt!

Now let me tell you about the best shot I took with my 577NE double..............

Mac,

As a client gun, the 9.3 x 74R is perfectly fine for ANY game in the world, with the proper bullets. An accurate one like you have makes an excellent plains game gun as well. You should not have trouble taking a kudu to 300 yards.

Have fun with it!

Mac,
As long as you stil have that 450-400, you can buy all the toys you want! Alls well that ends well.

MacD37,

On not whacking the butt of your double on the ground - can't say that I blame you, buy keep it in mind for when you might need to. Better yet try it some other guy's 101!

JPK

PS next time I'm at my brother's place I'll try it on his and let you know!

Actually, I do it all the time when trying out O/U's with single triggers. You don't need to hit the ground. Generally, I drop the first trigger, hold the gun by the foreend with my left hand and give it a smart slap on the recoil pad with my right hand. With most Brownings and Berettas, this is more than enough to cock the second trigger. If it doesn't, it usually means the trigger mechanism needs cleaning.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mac,
As long as you stil have that 450-400, you can buy all the toys you want! Alls well that ends well.

Unfortunently, Ray, I had to sell my A&N 450/400 3" acouple of yrs ago, along with the Ruger No1 also chambered for the same cartridge, and five other doubles with matching No1s.

I'm now trying the rebuild my double rifle inventory, and as of right now, I only have six double rifles, of any kind! The new(to me) O/U is simply the last one I bought. I don't have a 450/400 any longer, I should have bought the one you had at the DSC show, that was a nice double for $8K. My knee is still sore from kicking my own butt, for not buying it!
OH WELL!!!!!!!! I'll find one some day!

Mac,
Your new 470 is going to very jealous if you put that 9.3X74R in the safe with it. Better ship that down here to me.. . .Better yet I have to make a trip to the Mother-in_Law's house in Arlington this Friday. I'll just stop by and pick it up!