I shall lay off NNN now, but forevermore he must be known as a liar. He will not change.

500 grains,

Sorry but I take exception to the following;

No iron sights (usually). The Weatherby DGR model comes with iron sights or Weatherby will add iron sights to any model you want.
9 locking lugs is B.S. I bet only 3 of them make good contact. You would loose that bet. I have had more than one smith check that and all 9 make contact on the 13 Weatherby’s I own.
Not a particularly safe action in the event of a barrel obstruction. Those 9 locking lugs have been known to let go and permit the bolt to travel rearward through the shooter's cheek. Doesn't happen with a Mauser or M70 Classic. Son the Mark V action is one of the strongest bolt actions made.
Stocks too shiny (usually). Personal preference there
Monte Carlo. Again personal preference. I find the fit very comfortable.
Only 2 rounds in the mag. Weatherby offers different options.
A lot of Mark V's shoot like crap. But that problem seems to have gotten better lately. Got my first Weatherby in 1963. Sub MOA as are most all of the others I own.
The Mark V safety can be rattled into unreliability. Maybe Wby fixed that, I don't know. That has NEVER happened to any of mine and 4 of them have over 3,000 rounds thru them.
When the sheet metal feed lips get bent (happens sometimes) forget about the rifle feeding. And YES, it does happen. Ever hear of anyone bending the rails on a Mauser? Again I have never had that happen to any of mine nor to any of those that belong to my friends.

Back to the subject. I have 2 .375 H&H’s(Win. M70 and Ruger M77 Magnum), a .375 Weatherby and a .378 Weatherby. I prefer the .375 Weatherby over the others. In fact I am thinking about having a Weatherby reamer run thru the Ruger. The H&H is good but the Weatherby is better. The .378 is just too much of a good thing. Lawdog

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
I think 500 missed or glossed over this post by Ray


Quote
"I would not have been impressed with any 375 powerhouse for buffalo at one time, but I always considered the 375 H&H a good buffalo caliber and still do...anything faster was just hype...

HOWEVER, after seeing about 30 or 40 Buffalo killed with Saeeds 375/404 about the same as a 375 Wby, I have to say I have been impressed, it certainly kills buffalo as well as any caliber including the 500s as far as I can tell, and it kills them fast....

With the advent of monolithic bullets the whole picture has taken on a new meaning where velocity is concerned and the internal damage of a 375/404 is something to behold..." Unquote


It seems to me like 30 or 40 buffalo is a pretty good sample and Ray's observations along with Saeed's vast experience makes a dam good recomendation for .375 Weatherby type ballistics.

Not to belittle Ray's point, or to help 500grains case for that matter, but one should note that the #'s do not add up. Not that there is anything wrong with that, however, since at Ray's age hyperbole is both expected and understood. What follows is posted in the interest of accuracy only, since this has been a long and detailed debate thus far and we should be arguing in facts.

When Ray says that he and Saeed hunted together several times, he does mean twice. 2003 and 2004, with Pierre Van Tonder in the Selous.

Ray also says that he saw Saeed shoot 30 or 40 buffalo. In the two times times they hunted together, Saeed's bag was maybe 16 to 22 buffalo (total), and Ray was in other parts of the concession at the time many of them were killed.

On those same hunts, however, I do believe that other buffalo were killed by Saeed's rifles.

Anyway, I am not trying to be a jerk or anything. Just that I was thinking the embellishments might actually take some credibility from the argument for those of us that pay attention to details. I happen to agree with RIP, Saeed and Ray that the marginally souped up 375's seem to have a legitimate advantage over the standard 375. My departed friend Bob Fontana agreed, as he was exceptionally pleased with the performance of his 375 Dakota. In my experience, the 2700 to 2800 fps 375's seem to hit with an authority equal to the standard 416's but with even more penetration with the same style bullet.

As 500grains has noted, the difference is strictly anecdotal, but then again, so is the observation that bigger calibers are more effective than increased velocity.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Open question to all: Has anyone who has shot buffalo with both the .375 H&H and .375 Wby able to say that there is an observable difference in how the 2 cartridges perform on buffalo?

I don't know what difference that would make to the arguement at hand. As you have argued already, the observations of one person and a limited sample size are practically meaningless.

I am sure we could find dozens of people that have observed increased performance on game from increased velocity with a well constructed bullet, and we could find dozens more that will say they have seen indisputable evidence that bigger diameter bullets show more effect on game than high velocity.

Solves nothing.

Cheers,
Canuck

Without getting into the Boddington argument, I have two .375 Ackley improved rifles that essentially duplicate the .375 Weatherby. One was a MGA custom Kerry O'Day built for my son. He is 22 and has three one shot kills on buffalo. The other is a Sako Safari that was originally a standard .375 but I had it changed to an improved version. My older son shoots it and it is a wonderful safari rifle. I really like the flexibility of reloading the improved .375s and their ballistics over the standard .375.

500 Grains,

Perhaps the strongest endorsement of the 375 Wby comes from John S having an Echols rifle made in 375 Wby.

Echols resisted doing the 375 Wby as he had not done one before. I mentioned above that one negatives of the 375 Wby compared to the 375 H&H would be resale value if you were having a Purdey or H&H rifle made. I think that lower resale value would apply to any high end rifle and doubly so for one made on either a Model 70 or Mauser. John S would be well aware of that fact, however he pressed on to get 375 Wby.

On couple of his African trips he had a 375 H&H and his mate had a 375 Ackley Improved. Thus his Echols Legend was made in 375 Wby.

But you continue to miss the point that you can use 375 H&H ammo. You can use 375 H&H cases. You can use rifles that can be made into 375 H&Hs. The poster above me...mufasa.. has mentioned he converted a Sako Safari to 375 Improved....that might have been somewhat difficult to do with a 378.

Mike

500 Grains,

I was involved in a very lengthy thread on 24HourCampFire on Wby bolt case. Even Ken Howell turned around that there were things that "were missing" from the story. Ken Howell also agreed that if machined the 9 lugs of the action the bolt handle would hold.

But even if it is true as was presented it is a single case. As I have mentioned to you before if any action was going to get thrashed it would be the Wby action and especially with the 30/378 being available in the cheap Synthetic Mark V. The 30/378 has all the ingredients. Large case head diameter, inexperienced reloaders, a desire to get the highest velocity. I believe that when first intoduced the 30/378 was over 50% of Wby sales for the first two years, so there are plenty of them out there and of couse its cousin the 338/378. The 257 Wby is another calibre that encourages high pressure loading.

Mike

500 Grains,

I don't think the thrust of this and some other threads have been about 375 H&H Vs 375 Wby on buffalo, in fact just the opposite as that a specific situation. The thrust has been that the 375 Wby makes for a better all round calibre than the 375 H&H while at the same time retaining the advantages of the 375 H&H, with the exception of resale value on high end guns. On ordinary guns who knows, it might have a better resale value than the 375 H&H.

Mike

500 Grains,

As I said the Wby action has been thrashed more than any other action.

I believe the Wby action is very strong and safe and for a couple of reasons. I did mention earlier that I fired a load with the Varget and the powder measure was set for top loads with 4350. I have also seen an extreme overload with a 270 Wby and I can tell you I was standing next to the bench when the load was fired and it went over 3400 with 150 grainers and with an Oehler, not a performance enhancing Chrony

In fact I remember saying "holy fuck" when I saw the Oehler. The shooter was not aware of the problem on firing.

Having said that they are only two instances.

But I think in general when a manufacture has very strong and consistent long term claims in a given area then there is usually a strong element of truth in those claims and as we both know the strength/safety issue is a hallmark of Wby.

If there was a problem with Wbys in the stength and safety area then combination of the thrashing they get (and with big cases) plus their hallmark of strength/safety would have brought forward many cases of problems.

As you know I like the Wby via their custom shop as an overall package and especially at this stage of my life. As you also know I was happy to list the faults with the actions.

As a side note and especially with Norma belted brass I don't think the Rem 700 would be as good because the extractor system requires a lot of cartridge head protrusion from the chamber and with Norma belted brass the solid head is almost bordering on being outside the chamber.

As a by the way, if I coud have an action of my choice it would be a scaled a up version of the M70 push feed, but with the little square block under the tang removed and with a single stack magazine.

One reason for PFs is that CRF M70s are no good for setting uo whereby barrels can be moved between actions because of the extractor slot. Although I suspect if the slot was machined all the way around the barrel then things would be OK. But might be hard to find a gunsmith prepared to do this.

But if I was having a high grade 375 H&H or 416 Rigby made then I was use a CRF action but only because it would feel and look right.

But if my life depended on it, then I would put the CRF high end 416 to one side and use the 416 Wby loaded back or the HS Precision, both PF centre line feeders. Not sure which of those two I would pick. With practice the Wby is a faster action but the HS Precision has greater primary extraction.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mike,

All those things are true. But no advantage has been shown in this thread for using .375 Wby on buffalo. It kills 'em dead but so does .375 HH. If it's not an advantage, I can't see fireforming cases, dealing with the wrong headstamp (probably only a small issue), having low resale value, etc.

You do not have to deal with fire forming cases, I buy all of the new 375Wby cases I want from various suppliers. They are properly headstamped and made by Norma...good stuff. I could care less about resale value, I bought the rifle to hunt with and enjoy.
As for the difference in lethality between it and the H&H...dead is dead, no question of that. However, after seeing several buffalo killed by my friend's 375Ackley and an H&H I can assure you it will be a quicker and more sudden ending, assuming premium bullets are used. Will it hammer them to ground the way a 450 Dakota does...no. But it will also not kick you into tomorrow and will allow you to make that 400yd shot on plains game, if necessary.

500grs-
If memory serves you have/had a 470 Capstick. I think a very good comparison can be drawn between it and the 458 vs the 375H&H and the 375Wby, regarding performance on game. Both of the standard rounds give up about 200fps to the faster rounds. If the 458 Lott or 470 Capstick are lots more effective on heavy game, and many believe they are, than the 458, why wouldn't the same increased effectiveness apply in the 375's case?
In my own hunting I have found that extra velocity never hurts when using premium soft point ammo. It typically helps quite a lot, especially with a bullet like the NF soft point or a Barnes TSX. Most folks who hold a differing view have typically never used a faster round, or not used one enough to really make a valid comparison. I also do not believe for one second that something the size of a buffalo cannot/will not react like smaller animals when hit with a fast bullet. I assure you they will. Just last summer one of my best friends went to Tanzania and whacked three buffalo with his 450 Dakota. To quote the PH that was with him at the time, "Now I know why those Portugese hunters love the 460Wby so much"!

500 Grains,

Weatherby has been making a song dance about action strenghth/safety since the Mark V was introduced.

As to Wbys/HS Precisions and Africa there could be a few reasons. Just recently in one of out Australian magazines there was article PHs and rifles tests and rifles used. The CZ/BRNO was the most common and also was the most common at jamming.

I would imagine the costs associated with Wby rifles and also the costs associated with their big calibres does not inspire PHs. HS Precision ditto on costing. A mate of mine has been to Africa 4 times, although he has only shot plains animals and he said the PHs all had shit rifles and shit ammo.

But the simply physics of the matter, assuming comparable quality, is that there is no way a CRF staggered feed can equal a centre line push feed for getting the cartridge from the magazine to the chamber and especially if the calibre is one where the chamber diameter is not much larger than bullet diameter and blunt bullets are used.

And back to the 375 Wby, if it is better than the 375 H&H for plains game as you have said then it will equal the 375 on buffalo for the 2400 f/s people with 375 factory ammo.

But on buffalo as I explained to you and John S has just confirmed it was seeing the 375 Ackley and 375 H&H being used that sent John down 375 Wby avenue with his Echols.

And although you seem to wish to discount Saeed's experience, surely Saaed's use of 375 Wby ballistics and the fact that he takes a pair of them must surely make yo think.

Let's for a moment consider a couple of things about Saeed. We know he is able to shoot big rifles. We know he is not short of a dollar and in addition is obviouly set up over there in Dubia to make whatever he wants including his own bullets.

We also know that he has been down at the 2600 level with his 375/404s and all the way up to 3100 with the 375 Lazzeroni and also the high 2800s with his 375/404s and he has wound up at 375 Wby ballistics for his last couple of outings.

So when one considers all of these things I think it is reasonable to say that rechambering a Model 70, CZ etc 375 H&H to 375 Wby would be a move of a positive nature both for the hunter and for the person who likes to fuck about with loads and so on.

And if all the people who say 2400 f/s is the max number for DG including that bloke who wrote the book, is it Robertson, the book where he sings the song of loading the 375 back, then the 375 Wby user is better off with 375 H&H factory ammo than is the 375 H&H user.

Mike

500 Grains,

I am aware that CRF can be done as centre line feed and in fact the 500 Jefferys out here are usually made that way but the facts are CRFs normally available are staggered feed.

But if you want make an extraction contest a PF could always be made to win there. One reason being that the amount of case rim that could be engaged could always be made bigger than CRF. In addition the PF also puts a twisting action on the case.

The CRF will alsl be always more limited by ammunition quality/dimensions.

Nothing looks nicer than a staggered feed CRF action cycling its cartridges but PF has the design that will always allow it to be superior at getting the cartidge in and out of the chamber. I am not comparing factory rifles but ones which we make from scratch. If too much of the CRF extractor fits the case groove the case will not be able to slide under the extractor.

In fact it would not suprise me if some of the existing PFs like the Vanguard/Howa have an extractor that engages as much or more than the average CRF extractor.

But the all out winner on extraction is the Witchita Mini bench rest action. But rapid feed is not real good

Mike

500 grains,

The opinion Saeed has expressed is that he thinks the 375 H&H is/will be as good on buffalo as his 375/404.

If that is case then good, because the 375 Wby picks up the trajectory end of town and therefore becomes the better all round calibre.

You are continuing to miss the point that the 375 Wby can use 375 ammo etc but the 375 H&H can't go up to 375 Wby ballistics or use 375 Wby ammo.

Mike

Mike375,
When I hear the .375 Wby mentioned, I always perk up my ears and take note, especially from the likes of Saeed.

Saeed has specifically allowed that the .375 Wby would deliver all that he would ask of his .375/404, near and far, and that the .375 Wby is far more practical.

He has allowed that the .375 H&H is suitable for anything, but not as good as the higher velocity numbers, and I think he has proven in spades how effective the .375/300gr/2740 fps/5000 ft.lbs. combo is, near and far, with large-tough or small-soft game.

The .375 Wby Norma brass has water capacity of 111 grains. Saeed's .375/404 is 119 grains as best I can tell. Of course he shoots ~3.750" COL with the Walterhog. I know, this must be so because the nose length of the Walterhog will not allow it to be seated and fired in a lesser magazine. I have one of his homemade Walterhogs. It has a long nose and must be seated to long COL to get any purchase in the cartridge neck, what with its driving band layout.

The .375 Wby (with .3700" freebore) allows the use of COL out to 3.750" to 3.800" with many 300 grainers, even some that crimp there.

This really allows some increase in effective case capacity for increased velocity or lower pressures, or both if comparing to the .375 H&H. This warants the use of a 3.8" box, which is then going to usually allow 5 or 6 down in the box. This is the way to go with the .375 Weatherby.

I think Craig Boddington might have been flashing back to the old sloppy 0.750" freebore when he said the .375 H&H ammo lost 300 fps in a .375 Wby chamber. I have seen 250 fps loss with the sloppy throated old .375 Wby chamber of my first .375 Wby, using H&H ammo.

The newer .3700" freebore seems to lose less. 125 fps in my rifle.

I suspect John S has a 0.175" freebore 2 degree leade (the standard H&H throat) on his Echols .375 Wby.

I suspect that one would lose only ~ 100 fps with H&H ammo fired in a so throated .375 Wby chamber.

If anyone denies that the .375 Weatherby is better than the .375 H&H, then they simply have not evolved far enough to understand. There is hope for them. They are not all idiots.

RIP,

I must admit I get confused by various freebore dimensions.

I don't have a 375 handy but Model 70s need say a 270 grain Hornady seated out a long way to hit the rifling.

I think there might be taper down from the neck and than a parallel section and the parallel section is what is listed as freebore dimesnion on the Clymer reamer site as an example.

If you have a standard 375 chambered rifle handy seat a bullet backwards and likewise in your .37" chambered 375 Wby.

Such matter of course in the world of the 378 and 460 are totally irrelevant since the rifling starts somewhere around the middle of the barrel, which up an interesting point on accuracy.

In accurate 460s I have have excellent accuracy with 350 Hornady and also excellent accuracy with 220 Hornadys in 378s, provided the latter are loaded back a bit. In both cases the bullet is clear of the case before it hits the rifling. Many years ago, late 1960s my father mucked about a little bit with the idea of trimming case necks right back so the bullet was clear of the case before it hit the rifling.

The first time, which was several years ago in a Made in Japan 378 I tried the 220 Hornady flat noses with full powered loads and thought I had stumbled onto the greatest kangaroo bomber seen by man. Loaded to full power I was getting groups of about an inch at 100 yards. The velocity was just under 3500 f/s and several of us were suprised the bullet even made to the target because as you know it it is the 375 Big Bore Lever gun bullet.

I tried you other tests by altering the powder charge and also testing from clean cold barrel, cold barrel with cold hard fouling etc and the load proved to be very stable. I had a composite group of about 1.5" at 100 yards. Even though they only weighed 220 grains the lead bag of shot was still taking a big pounding.

So the next test was to try them at the 200 yard target which was mainly done to illustrate to some people that even with a ballistic coefficient of minus .3 they would shoot flat.

Would you believe the bullets never made it to the two hundred yard target. Some did nose dives and the dirt could be seen to kick up, which I have seen with the 400 Speer when pushed along and other went wherever they went.

We returned to the 100 target and loaded 3 more rounds and they were back into the group. That ranks as perhaps the most frustrating load/calibre combination I have ever had.

HOWEVER, it was suggested that I had discovered the perfect spotlight shooting load since most shots are 150 yards and less. Atom bomb killing power but a maxium travel distance of less than 200 yards. The only problem being that while either a 378 or 460 can and do certainly add to the drama of a night's spotlight shooting they are not quite suitable for a full nights shooting with full power loads.

Mike

Mike375,
So the 3500 fps 220gr/.375 would hold together for about 150 yards before starting to come apart in flight? Very interesting. Might have urban tactical use.

I have done the test with backward seated bullets in .375 Wby and .375 RUM (factory and custom). I need to do it with the .375 H&H too, which I never bothered to do. Might as well check the .378 Weatherby CZ and a .375/.338 FN Mauser that had its throat cut with a standard H&H reamer.

Comparing all these to the specs for throat will see how much depth the leade adds to the freebore, practical measure rather than trigonometric calculation.

I use some Groove MI or old Bridger Brass FN's that are really long and have a flat base.

I don't think I ever found the end of my sloppy old .375 Weatherby throat, but will try again and be more persistent. It may take an inch of flat based parallel sided shank to do that.

Stay tuned. I'll list them all. But my eyelids are drooping now ...

I don't know who is nuttier about this stuff, you or RIP. I have joined the .375 club, though I still enjoy a .510 now and then ...

Hey Bro,
My PT&G 375 Wby reamer is enroute to White City, OR for a regrind down to the new factory specs (i.e. .370" of tight freebore and then a leade angle of one degree and two minutes). They only charge $25.00 for the regrind. I was tempted to go with a .250 freebore, but I wil be producing ammunition with an eye toward easiest compatability with what is out there in the hunter's hands.
I also ordered a new 416 Rem Mag reamer, but that is an argument for another thread.

lawndart

Edited for spelling error.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by 500 grains:

Not a particularly safe action in the event of a barrel obstruction. Those 9 locking lugs have been known to let go and permit the bolt to travel rearward through the shooter's cheek. Doesn't happen with a Mauser or M70 Classic.

quote:

Reply by Lawdog:

Son the Mark V action is one of the strongest bolt actions made.

Lawdog, that might be true, but it does not help the gentleman who had a Mark V bolt go through his face (he sent pics of his face to Wby, according to one of their former employees). When overpressurized, Mauser actions stretch and Model 70's blow, but neither of them send the bolt back to the shooter's face. That was the only point I wanted to make.

I have seen different mauser actions that have blown where the shooter was injured. Sorry but one incident doesn't tell the whole story. There have been incidents where the Weatherby action held when wrongly loaded cartridges were shot thus saving the shooter. Lawdog

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mike,

I like the .378 Wby as a long range big game cartridge (but not in a Mark V).

As for Rem, once the safety/trigger issue and bolt handle are remedied, it's fine for deer, rabbits, etc.

My point to Ron is that since Boddington does not tell us the good and the bad, his recommendations are not worth much. His articles read like he loves every product, so it is hard to view them as honest evaluations. They are more like marketing pitches.

So the 375 Wby might be a great cartridge. But citing Boddington as a supporter is meaningless.

Agree 100% on the Remington description...I'll never carry one when after DGR...I've seen many of them to fail miserably...on the range...in the field, those failures could mean your life

Regarding Col. Boddington, while I enoy his articles and respects him a lot for what we have achieved, is a rare find him citing something he doesn't dislikes.

Back to the original post, I've limited experience with the .375Wea, and is a satisfactory cartridge, but having at hand the .375RUM, whu to bother with limited logistics?

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

Back to the original post, I've limited experience with the .375Wea, and is a satisfactory cartridge, but having at hand the .375RUM, whu to bother with limited logistics?

Logistics?
Loss of ammo for a .375 RUM is a logistical nightmare. That is a big part of the charm of the .375 Weatherby. You can find some .375 H&H standard factory ammo and not even change your sight/scope setting, as long as you know your trajectory.

Anyway, I have tried these rifles with the bullet seated backward for a crude measure of effective throat distance, to contact with the lands, of a flat based Groove MI brand solid bullet. This gave me up to 0.82" of parallel sided bullet shank with a flat base sticking forward into the rifling.

custom-throated FN Mauser .375/.338 WinMag: 0.26"

Custom Pre-64 M70 .375 H&H: 0.26"

Custom Shop Big Five Lion M70 .375 H&H: 0.26"

Custom-throated .375 RUM: 0.10"

Factory M700 .375 RUM: 0.31"

.375 Wby (NEW) (both M70 and CZ550): 0.470"

.375 Wby (Old) (Mark X): +0.82" (ran out of bullet here)

Custom-throated .378 Wby: 0.50"

Some surprises for me there.
The 23" custom .375 RUM shoots factory loaded 300 grain Swifts almost as fast as the 26" barreled factory rifle. Both really close, either side of, 2800 fps. The former gets higher pressures I am sure, but does not blow primers, is all I will say for now on that one.

The custom-throated .378 Weatherby is throated almost the same as the NEW STANDARD .375 Wby, and will do about 3000 fps with 300 grainers if the .375 Wby will do 2800 fps, and it will, both in 25" CZ barrels.

These measurements are crude eyeball and caliper takes with bullet bases blackened with a Sharpie, etc.
************************************************
.375 caliber barrels are .366"/3.68" bore and .375"/.378" groove diameter, from various sources.
************************************************

For discussion purposes, the Clymer throat specs below:

Cartridge ....FB length ... FB diam. ... Leade

.375/.338 ...0.2000"......0.3770"....2* 30'
.375 H&H.....0.1750"......0.3770"....2* 0'
.375 WBY.....0.3700"......0.3755"....1* 2'
.375 RUM.....0.1750"......0.3761"....1* 0'
.378 WBY.....0.7500"......0.3755"....1* 5'

.375 AI......0.2000"......0.3770"....2* 30'
.375 JRS.....0.2000"......0.3770"....2* 30'
.375 Dakota..0.1500"......0.3760"....1* 30'

The .375 Wby is about half the length of the .378 Wby freebore, but both have the same tight diameter, 0.3755", the tightest of all the above freebore diameters. The .375 Dakota is the shortest freebore length, and almost as tight in diameter as the Wby's.
************************************************

Consider the CIP spec .404 Jeffery throat:
freebore length: zero
leade angle: 1 degree 20 minutes
At 2.875" from the base of the chamber/breech, the throat is 0.452" diameter.
In a run of 0.300" beyond this, the leade tapers down to 0.410" diameter datum.

The standard barrel is most generally accepted as 0.411" bore and 0.423" groove diameter.

Nice bullet funnel.

Barg with a bite root beer.

bro'dart,
We have highest regards for both PT&G and Manson reamers hereabouts.

I think you have chosen wisely, and will be getting that freebore diameter a scant o.ooo5" over bullet diameter, eh?

Tight is good in more things than chamber throats ... I used to go with a girl who said that ...

Anyway it is wonderful to have another good reamer in the family.

I'm going to stick my toe in the bloody waters here. Now that Mr. Boddington has been crucified for his article on the 375 Weatherby .. did anyone read his article in the September 2004 issue of "Guns & Ammo" called "Picking Up The Pace"? Here he sort of compares the various 375s -- the H&H, Weatherby, Dakota, RUM and 378 Weatherby. Basically, he tries to illustrate the advantages of a faster 375.

As a neophyte in the big bore catagory, I read everyone's oppinions on the subject. I have little to compare with. I've taken mule deer, white tail and antelope with a custom 7mm-06 then turned around and took praire dogs out to 500 yards with the same rifle (Mark X action & Shilen barrel). Of all the things I know and have read, bullet placement is the key. Saw that first hand as a kid when my uncle dropped a steer at 50 yards with one .22 Long rilfe bullet -- that steer dropped like a sack of spuds. That same uncle has taken more elk in Northern Idaho with a '03 Springfield 30-06 than anyone else I know.

After all the discussion regarding the 375 Weatherby here and the various articles I've read I think I probably will have my 375 H&H opened up to 375 Weatherby. As with any cartridge, if you reload, you can load up and down with any case size, but but it's easier when you have some boiler room to spare ... it becomes pretty dicey when you try to max out a small case. The ability to use either H&H or Weatherby cases is an asset, as far as I can tell. Besides it would be hard to mistake the shoulder of the Weatherby case by feel even in the dark, compared to the H&H.

The .375 Weatherby is unquestionably a better cartridge than the H&H. I really cannot understand the basis of any issue or debate.

Being pragmatic and practical as a rule, rather than a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist at all costs, I own bolt actions of all kinds, from Blasers and other modern non-CRF designs to Mausers and Mauser-derivatives, like the CZ 550 and pre-64 Winchester Model 70.

I like good, practical cartridges, too. I like the .500 A-Square over all other .505-.510 bores. It's just better than the others in the same way that the .375 Weatherby is better than the .375 H&H. I prefer the .458 Lott over all other .458 bores, too, because it's the most practical and usable in terms of power, magazine capacity and performance.

But everyone has to draw the line somewhere and I do and will always prefer the .375 H&H Mag. to the .375 Whatever Else and the .416 Rigby to the .416 Whatever Else.

Also, I will never own a Remington Model Anything.

Don't ask me to explain it because I can't.

I've sat on the sidelines on this one. I have a pre-64 Super Grade .375 H&H and a pre-64 standard grade re-cut to .375 Wby. by Weatherby. Very clean original rifle given to me by my hero. An older friend who passed away several years ago. I even have the recipt for the work on an old Weatherby letter head with a Firestone Blvd. address. My friend was a production test pilot for North American Aviation and as a performance nut he had all his M70's converted where possible. I am planning to do some testing and comparisons this spring and will try to be consistent measuring throats and bullet jump, pressure monitoring etc. Will attempt to post. Enjoyed the debate. Regarding Craig Boddington I do not know him, have met him, and his experience is there to see. We can all be picked apart by others and most likely would not agree with more aggressive reviews. He has been nothing but a gentleman and most cordial when I have seen him at the various conventions. gduffey

Surely the ultimate practical 2-gun combo for Africa would be:

.375 Weatherby
plus
.458 Lott

The nostalgic or pommie might say:

.375 H&H
plus
.416 Rigby
or
.404 Jeffery

I've shot some sort of game with all the above, including NA deer, hogs, sheep, moose, black bear, bison, and game farm Asian water buffalo, and African plains game and cape buffalo. Not every critter with every rifle, but enough to know this:

The .375 Weatherby is the most practical and versatile cartridge in the world, and the best one-gun battery.

I chased a Kodiak brown bear once upon a time, self-guided, but he got away into the willows.

It is amazing how fast a 12 foot square bear can run 300 yards and disappear into the brush, with me chasing after him, carrying a .375 Weatherby, and fearing no evil.

The surprisingly short-throated custom .375 RUM went to the smith today to be rethroated to .3700" freebore plus 1 degree 2 minute lead, or as close to that as he can eyeball it with a Dave Manson neck and throat reamer.

This will allow COL of 3.750" for Saeed style loads of the .375 RUM. 4 down plus one in the AHR-CZ 550 Magnum action, serial number X0001. It has a ribbed .375 H&H box from CZ and a Dakota follower and spring meant for the .416 Rigby African action, starts the stack on the left side of the box instead of the CZ right side. Dakotas are backward that way.

The .375 Wby is still the best .375 Cartridge Of The World. I am just a .375 junkie.

You guys really need to get out more!

It amazes me that the likes of Anderson and Powell (a good Welsh name! ) managed to bag quite a few leopard and tigers with a lever actioned .405win...

Both eventually went to double rifles and/or the humble .375H&H, but they both made the .405win work simply because they were "hunters" and not "shooters" ...I am not trying to knock anybody here, but lets not forget its the "nut behind the butt" which is the most influencial/critical part of the equation in all this!

Regards,

Pete

Thank you Pete.
It has been a pleasure yanking your chain!

Nuttiness in one area is often a substitute for what the nut would really rather be doing.

Hey, it's better than motorcycles.

Was that Mr. Cotton who got killed by a rhino because he was hunting with a .405 Winchester?

"Both eventually went to double rifles and/or the humble .375H&H, but they both made the .405win work simply because they were "hunters" and not "shooters" ..." No... I think they became hunters when they started concerning themselves with what worked, not when they made do with what they owned.

It is "shooters" who show little/no concern as to what they use and it is "hunters" who understand the right tool for the right job.

smallfry,
You tell it like it is.
Now it is your turn to pester Dakota until they make a stainless 76 African action. Let me know when you succeed. I have given up on it.

If you could, get them to put a self-locking Mauser extractor on it too. Then it would make an excellent .375 Weatherby.

quote:

.3700" freebore plus 1 degree 2 minute lead,

RIP
Where can I get a reamer like the one you described? Midway has them but don´t say what the freebore is.

JohnAir,
I would recommend Dave Manson:

http://www.mansonreamers.com

You can find and look at a drawing of the standard specs that he uses at:

http://www.clymertool.com/cgi-bin/reamer.cgi?

My smith got the .375 Weatherby reamer from Dave Manson.

He also got a separate neck-and-throat reamer that would duplicate the .375 Weatherby throat on other chambers that have short throats. This could be used with a .338 Lapua reamer and .375 pilot to make a .375 Lapua or 9.5x69mm Tornado, for example.

Dave Kiff at PT&G can get yopu fixed up as well:
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/

lawndart

As much as I like most of the .375 rounds, my favorite is the 375 Dakota. I have had very good luck with this round and it will function through a standard length action. I also like the fact that it does not have a belt and feeds like it is on bearings.

Yep,
The .375 Dakota is a wonderful cartridge.
Only 2.570" long in the case, shortened and necked down .404 Jeffery.
It will deliver 2700 fps with a 300 grainer from a 26" barrel.
Ought to call that the .375/404 Saeed Short.

Still not as practical or powerful as the .375 Weatherby, but it will do just fine.

smallfry:

quote:

No... I think they became hunters when they started concerning themselves with what worked, not when they made do with what they owned.

No I think they were fully aware of the limitations of some of the rounds they used, but circumstances meant it was either a case of get on with it or don't hunt...Remember also these guys were often as not just hunting for sport, but trying to remove a terrible burden from the villagers...

As a case in point Col Locke describes has preperation for sitting up, at night, waiting for a cattle killing tiger..His fireing pin spring has broke and it will take him a long while to get a replacement...Does he give up? Nope, he cobbles together an external spring to drive the fireing pin, essentialling making it a one shot affair...

In a similar manner Anderson recounts sitting in a bamboo clump (on the ground) at night, 19 yards away from the remains of the maneaters last kill. He knows that should he get a shot before the tiger becomes aware of him, there is every chance that the bulb on his shooting torch will blow under the recoil....

I think in general they very much knew the limitations of their kit, but simply choice to work with in those limitations and get the job done..

Regards,

Pete

We all make choices.

The Dakota round was a super killer in Zimbabwe. I shot a Kudu that was running directly away from me and I had to take a shot I was not too sure of. The bullet entered the left rump and the skinner found the bullet along side the wind pipe! The animal dropped as though he was struck by lightning. Also had great success on Waterbuck, Bushbuck, Impalla and Wart hog.

quote:

Originally posted by luvrecoletta:
The Dakota round was a super killer in Zimbabwe. I shot a Kudu that was running directly away from me and I had to take a shot I was not too sure of. The bullet entered the left rump and the skinner found the bullet along side the wind pipe! The animal dropped as though he was struck by lightning. Also had great success on Waterbuck, Bushbuck, Impalla and Wart hog.

... and more than adequate for anything else, just like the .375 Weatherby is.

However, the only other oddball .375 I am interested in is the .375 Lapua which would have about the same case capacity as the .375/404 or .375 RUM but in a shorter, fatter case, better quality brass, and I could get the case heads stamped with a "375" by putting a "3" and a "5" on either side of the upside down "L" in the Lapua shield.

Still couldn't shoot .375 H&H ammo in it though, if my ammo bag was lost.