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Question. What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's? I hear that the 9,3x62 was used a lot but talking 375 and up. Seems older popular DG carts today were quite rare back in the 20's so what were the most popular big bore bolts carts of that decade? Was the 375 HH popular in the 20's or only later in the 40's? Was the 425 WR the most popular? 404 Jeffery? 12,7x70 Schuler? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | ||
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For what it's worth, both the 9.3x62 and .375H&H were considered medium-bores in those days. It's a stretch to consider them 'big bores' except on the internet. In the British possessions, the .404 Jeffery was probably the most common big bore bolt-action cartride in use during the 1920's (followed by the .416 Rigby and .425WR), and the 10.75x68 was probably most common in the empires of Continental nations. George  | |||
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Agree with the above. I'd say 404J, 416R. Not sure 425WR was ever that popular. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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The .400/350 Rigby and .350 Rigby also had a following but they faded out to the .375H&H.. | |||
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I was unaware of the 10.75x68 was so popular big bore for Africa DG in the 20's So to rank them in popularity you would say 404 J 416 R 425 WR 10.75x68? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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No, I would go this way 404 J 416 R 10.75x68? 425 WR And I am still not convinced the 425WR was that popular. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Based on John Taylor's rating of cartridges, the 9.3 and 375 were medium bores. the 404, 416 and 425 WR were large mediun bores and those over 45 caliber big bores. 465H&H | |||
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So two of the top three African big bores of the 20's was a .423" bullet diameter by your assertion. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The 404 Jeffery was head and shoulders above everything else when it came to numbers of rifles on the ground and in use. I believe the 416 had few users untill Rourke gave it a boost in his writings much much later than the 20's. | |||
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Yes. I think we need to think outside the square - that is the white, anglo saxon square created by the types of books we have read. Germany and others also had huge empires in Africa. Hence the 9.3 being popular and as such the 10.75. I would like to re read a few books on it to check but just by sheer weight of numbers 404J 416R 10.75 Re the 425WR, you just don't see the number of 2nd hand guns around and IMHO that is a good indication of what was made in the past. Just my HO. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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So a 404 on a M98 would be the most used bolt action cart combo of the twenties? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I would say so. When did Parker Hale start mass producing 404's ? Anyone know ? Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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where are these figures coming from. Are there published figures for all of the Rifle firms during that time period? Or published figures from all of the Professional Hunters during that time period. | |||
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Probably so. Many were issued to game rangers. The 416 was a proprietary cartridge and not that many 416s were actually built by Rigby in pre-war times. It's likely that many more German 9.3s and 10.75s were used by settlers, farmers, big bore or not. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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fla That is exactly how I read it as well. Wasn't the 425WR a proprietary cartridge as well. That one issue had a hell of a lot to do with how many guns were made in a calibre. 470 Nitro being a good example of what happens when a cartridge is released to the trade as opposed to the 500/465 which wasn't so much. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Would be difficult to get published data on this. What wa the most common action in the 20's for the 10.75x68? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Whatever the most common action was in Europe during that time - which was probably the Mauser 98. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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The 404 Jeffery was out and about as early as 1905. It was the first truly successful bolt action dangerous game rifle, and all the rest that followed never did the all-around job quite as well. It is still as good as it gets. My gestalt would be that in the 1920's the 404 Jeffery was King of the Hill numerically too, as was the M98 action. And both are still the best at what they do. | |||
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I'd probably agree with OP and give it to the 9.3 and allow it into bigbores of the day just because they took the same game.Also despite how we classify cartridges from .177 to 700 nitro according to our safari naming conventions fact is vast majority of animals shot then was probably by regular landowners using everything from small exmil calibres to smoothbore shotguns to see game off. A dedicated hunting 9.3 or 375 would have been 'a big rifle' to the average boer, retired soldier, poor settler or black poacher who probably never read a book or met a guy with a 404, 11.2 etc | |||
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I guess maybe another way to ask my question would be to ask what big bore bolt actions foreigners would buy to hunt Africa in the 20's. Would non residents in large numbers purchase 10.75x68's? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boom stick I really think it depends on where people came from. Euro's buy European or maybe English Poms buy 404 Yanks - whatever Griffin and Howe or one of the other big shops had available. Or even a 405 Winchester Lever Action  Just my HO. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Very cogent comments...  Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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G&H opened in 1923. Seems G&H were making 375 magnums and 400 Whelens (on long Mausers)in a 1925 catalog I saw. Not many American choices. I would wager that a lot of Americans used English rifles. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Thanks for that. Good info. Agree re Americans used English Rifles. G&H definately brought in guns from the UK, but I have this nagging feeling that someone else in the US was also "outfitting" people. I'll have a think / search. Nigel Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I believe Abercrombie and fitch was one of the big ones-IIRC they even had an in-store shooting range. | |||
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Yep, that was it, Abercrombie and fitch. I was going to look up my Ernest Hemingway books as I was sure it was mentioned in one of them. So does anyone have a catalogue from that era for them that we could possibly see what they sold ? Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Let´s better choose Von Lengerke&Detmold which was sold to Abercrombie and Fitch in 1928. At that time VL&D offerd the following Big Bore rifles: Gibbs rifles(Mauser actioned) .505 , .404 , Rigby rifles : .416 Ammo listed : 10,75 Mauser .404 Jeffrey .416 Rigby .425 Westly Richards .500 Magnum Nitro Express .505 Gibbs The above listing when "Big Bore" starts at 10,75 resp .404 bore | |||
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Good info. Interesting about the 505 Gibbs considering it only came out in 1911 and not many were made by Gibbs and it was a bit of a proprietary calibre. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| one of us |
African big bores in the 1920s were pretty well limited to the 98 Mauser. the 9.3x62 was popular in the German communities and Namibia. The 404 was the issue caliber Mauser in almost if not all the Game Depts. The .416 Rigby was not used very much as it could only be had in Rigby rifles and they were high dollar. Its popularity came along with Rouark and Hemmingway as I recall...The 425 WR had a modicum of popularity or at least it was available, but again only available in high dollar guns.. Many of the hunters actually used the 7x57 Mauser, the 303 British for all their big game hunting including elephants and for a time the 6.5 Manlichers and such were deemed Lion medicine.. Americans used the mod. 95 Win in .405 and the 1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06 was potent medicine and still is today. Later in the 30s the .375 H&H seemed to own the African bush in Mausers and later the mod 70 Win. The big bore Mausers, like the 500 Jeffery's and 505 Gibbs came to play early on somewhere in this scenario but I can't recall just what years they showed up, but their use was and still is limited to a few brave souls who have nerve disorders.. Back then and early on, frican folks depended on marksmanship to get by and money was tight so they used what they had..The British were more affluent and they used the high dollar stuff. At least that is what I have gleaned from reading history on the subject. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Yep, very interesting re. the 505 Gibbs; a true and great big-bore cartridge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Atkinson Good summary. I think you are spot on with this as this is the gun I was trying to think of. "1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06" I think that would just about cover it !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Thanks Atkins for a great reply. Where does the 10.75x68 fit in in your 1920's popularity summary?
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Take it from Ray ----- he is almost old enough to have been around then Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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The 416 Rigby was a proprietary cartridge and less than 200 rifles were made by Rigby before WW II. Many went to India. So Africa had a relatively small number. The 10.75X68 (aka 423 Mauser) was a Govenment issue to game wardens in East Africa. I am not sure if that started in the 20s or later but there were many such rifles in Africa. JA Hunter refers to it in one of his books. Bullet failure was an issue with the 347 gr projectiles. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Naki You reckon more 10.75's than 404's ? I would be surprised at that. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I am finding it puzzling that the 423 Mauser and 404 Jeffery are not more popular today although the 404J has become a lot more so in the last 5 years. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Here is my HO. Ruark and others made the 416R "the" calibre and as such the popularity of the .423 cals decreased. Except for those "in the know" you might say ! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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1. 9,3X62 2. 404 Jeffery The .416 Rigby, while a great cartridge, did not play a big role in the 20s nor did the .375 H&H. There were only about 200 Rigbys made before 1980 and the .375 didn't really take off until after WWII. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave, when I saw you posted, I thought for sure you would name the 338 RCM :-) | |||
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 Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's?
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