The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Rifles like this 303 Lee Speed did the service of the big bores for many, many of the early hunters  But I still am guessing that simple 404's like this early Jeffery were the most common "big bore".  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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That 404 looks like it could tell some good stories. It would also say "I'm not old, I just have a patina" lol. Seems with today's powders and bullets the 10.75x68 can do the work of the old 404. I found some reference to an obscure 10.75x63 from 1910. Just a shorter neck and seems a lot got rechambered to the 5mm longer 68. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The 423 (10.75) was a standard Govt issue while the 404 J was a lot more expensive. In later years FN made the 10.75 in relatively high volume. In India you will find 10 guns in 423 Mausers for one 404 Jeffery.
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Was talking to my Dad tonight - he was in Zambia from the late 40's to the early 60's,and asked his opinion. He reckons (in response to the original question) that it was probably .404J. Which according to his guesstimate was about 1% of rifles used. Visiting hunters brought or hired doubles and rarer calibres. Settelers, and those who were not aristocrats had a 7x57 or a 303 or a 8x57. Maybe if they were better off a 318 WR, 333J or something. The more well off of them (later) had a 375H&H. According to Pierre van der Walt, it appears WR made their 425's in 2 grades - one that worked, and one that didn't work as well. You can see the WR actions because they have "arms" that extend above the rails to catch the rounds until the Mauser extractor can "catch" them. Hope this helps. But the unasked question probably is "what calibre was used for large game in Africa in the 20's" and the answer would be "Whatever they had." -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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Thanks for the replies. Seems small and medium bores ruled Africa in the 20's. The well off used fancy big bore doubles or single shots but if you want an authentic 1920's African big bore bolt action either of the 404 or 423 Mauser were tops. I learned a lot more about the 423 Mauser because of you guys. Thanks. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boom stick I also think what we call small and medium bores ruled, but that is a different question to what you asked at the beginning !!! Agree though, this has been an interesting and informative thread. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Yes I was not looking to find out about smaller bores and now with all the regulations pretty much only the poachers use lesser bores. I guess the big bore bolt action African carts only took off after WW2. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boom stick You also have to look at the time period. WW1 cocked up a lot of people's lives 1914 - 18 and probably until about 1920 - 21 before things started to return to normal. The Depression started 1929 so that curtailed things. The the wars started - ? 1935 onwards ? with of course WWII 1939 - 45 with most things not bck to normal in Europe until 1950 or a bit later. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Nice thread here  Cal30 If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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So... Did the 10.75x61 and 10.75x63 preceed the 404 Jeffery as the first big bore rimless cart? The 68mm seems to have the numbers but it may have been preceded by a couple others even before the 404. http://www.municion.org/Dwm/Dwm515.htm 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Only 189 .416 Rigby's were ever made prior to 1939, so that's probably not a good bet for "legend" in Africa in the 1920's. As is the case with the .600 NE, many have wondered what became of the myriad of .416 Rigby ammo loaded prior to WW II. They certainly weren't all shot out. My bet would be that you should look at the .303, 7x57, some or other 8mm, 9,3x62, 10,75x68, .404 Jeffery or .425 WR. To this day, there are a good many old 10,7's, .404's and .425's being offered for sale here in Africa. Many are pretty stuffed, though, and considering the passage of time that's probably not unreasonable. Doubles? Never been many in Africa. More these days than at any time before. Prior to the late 1930's not many people in Africa knew about the existence of the .375 H&H. Winchester made the calibre in Africa, not H&H. | |||
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This ^^^^^ is a true and correct statement. I just read through this thread and was a bit surprised so many folks chose the .416R as it was a rarity during the time period mentioned. The .404 J would have been the common .40+ caliber in a bolt gun for the British colonies. | |||
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I don't think that there is any way to answer this question with any degree of accuracy. There are just too many variables affecting use. A few are, the European nationality of the various countries. German calibers were more likely to be used rather than British calibers in Tanzania and SW Africa. Just the opposite in Kenya and the Rhodesias. Portuguese calibers in their countries colonies, etc. In addition, calibers used varied between farmers, citizen hunters and professional hunters. Probably the most accurate way to determine this would be to see the caliber and number of rounds of ammunition shipped to Africa from the various ammo manufacturers. I doubt that info is available though. 465H&H | |||
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I am no authority since I've personally only handled, much less owned, a few of these, but I have followed the literature since the 1950s. Much of what was available from gun writers in, say, 1955-1990 was based on assumptions and prejudices, not good data. Today, the data seems much more available or accepted. My impressions are that many of the posts above are right, in that smaller calibers were much more commonly used, if one puts aside the love of all things British (I am guilty of this too) the 9.3x62 likely leads the pack in numbers of mid-size caliber rifles in Africa, the .416 Rigby was simply not around in large numbers and we all were waiting for the 70 in 1956 in .458 Win Mag for sales of big bores in quantity. Somehow I have the idea that there just were not that many .404 Jefferys, either. Can anyone say for sure? If I really wanted to track this down, I'd call Chris Soyza at Westley Richards in Birmingham. You may know others, but he's the only one I personally know in the trade who deals extensively with these. Chris is Malaysian, had hunted rogue elephants there, is a Birmingham-trained engineer and has spent his adult life making bolt-actions and doubles from scratch. Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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By the way, some of us remember when Griffin & Howe was part of Abercrombie & Fitch in its wonderful store on Madison Avenue in NYC. Many is the rifle I wish I had acquired there back then.  Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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Another thing. The good stuff - the H&H Royals and probably about 80% of the doubles built weren't going to Africa, but to the Indian Maharajahs (and other royalty, whatever the titles were) rather than to Africa. Africa was a small sideshow to "the jewel in the crown" - India. Now, I don't KNOW, but I'm going to guess that of the game department members, probably only the whites "rangers" rather than the black "scouts" were armed in the 20's and thirties. A soldier or civil servant going to Africa or India might pop in the Army and Navy store and pick up a very basic double before catching the ship. Settlers would have very little more than many of the people who settled the old West (at least at first). So they'd be taking a 303 or something cheap (Like Bell did originally). -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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.404 and 10.75x63 are probably tops of the "large bores" list and the 9,3 would likely be tops for the midbores. Funny to me that people even mentioned the Rigby! I'll bet the .416 Rigby was outnumbered 3 to 1 by even obscure things like the .333 and .318. Of course, all of the above (save perhaps the 9,3) were probably outnumbered in their use on even dangerous game by things like the 7mm and 8mm and .303. This discussion is a bit like asking what rounds have killed the most deer in America. The instinct is to say 30-06 or .270, then you think about it for a minute and decide, "Well, maybe it was the .30-30 or .32 WS". Then you think about it some more and realize it was more likely the .44-40 or even .45 Colt over the long term. Same sort of thing in Africa I suspect. It's not like every frugal farmer rushed out in 1905 and bought a 9,3 and they sure as heck didn't go out and spring for a Rigby or double. To think that they did is just imposing our 21st century post-colonial romanticism on a reality that almost certrainly did not exist. Like most "ranch folk" today, I would bet the vast majority of people made due with what they had, and for most of them that was a 7mm or .303 that belonged to dad or grandpa. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's?
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