What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's?

16 May 2013, 00:09

boom stick

Question.
What were the most used bolt action African big bores in the 1920's?
I hear that the 9,3x62 was used a lot but talking 375 and up. Seems older popular DG carts today were quite rare back in the 20's so what were the most popular big bore bolts carts of that decade? Was the 375 HH popular in the 20's or only later in the 40's?
Was the 425 WR the most popular?
404 Jeffery?
12,7x70 Schuler?

16 May 2013, 00:30

GeorgeS

For what it's worth, both the 9.3x62 and .375H&H were considered medium-bores in those days. It's a stretch to consider them 'big bores' except on the internet.

In the British possessions, the .404 Jeffery was probably the most common big bore bolt-action cartride in use during the 1920's (followed by the .416 Rigby and .425WR), and the 10.75x68 was probably most common in the empires of Continental nations.

George

16 May 2013, 00:39

505G

Agree with the above.

I'd say 404J, 416R.

Not sure 425WR was ever that popular.

16 May 2013, 01:06

Pondoro

The .400/350 Rigby and .350 Rigby also had a following but they faded out to the .375H&H..

16 May 2013, 02:36

boom stick

I was unaware of the 10.75x68 was so popular big bore for Africa DG in the 20's
So to rank them in popularity you would say
404 J
416 R
425 WR
10.75x68?

16 May 2013, 03:15

505G

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I was unaware of the 10.75x68 was so popular big bore for Africa DG in the 20's
So to rank them in popularity you would say
404 J
416 R
425 WR
10.75x68?

No,

I would go this way

404 J
416 R
10.75x68?
425 WR

And I am still not convinced the 425WR
was that popular.

16 May 2013, 03:32

465H&H

Based on John Taylor's rating of cartridges, the 9.3 and 375 were medium bores. the 404, 416 and 425 WR were large mediun bores and those over 45 caliber big bores.

465H&H

16 May 2013, 03:33

boom stick

So two of the top three African big bores of the 20's was a .423" bullet diameter by your assertion.

16 May 2013, 03:35

Von Gruff

The 404 Jeffery was head and shoulders above everything else when it came to numbers of rifles on the ground and in use. I believe the 416 had few users untill Rourke gave it a boost in his writings much much later than the 20's.

16 May 2013, 03:40

505G

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
So two of the top three African big bores of the 20's was a .423" bullet diameter by your assertion.

Yes.

I think we need to think outside the square
- that is the white, anglo saxon square created
by the types of books we have read.

Germany and others also had huge empires in
Africa. Hence the 9.3 being popular and as such
the 10.75.

I would like to re read a few books on it to check but just by sheer weight of numbers

404J
416R
10.75

Re the 425WR, you just don't see the number of 2nd hand guns around and IMHO that is a good indication of what was made in the past.

Just my HO.

16 May 2013, 04:37

boom stick

So a 404 on a M98 would be the most used bolt action cart combo of the twenties?

16 May 2013, 04:48

505G

I would say so.

When did Parker Hale start mass producing 404's ?
Anyone know ?

16 May 2013, 04:49

silvertip1

where are these figures coming from. Are there published figures for all of the Rifle firms during that time period? Or published figures from all of the Professional Hunters during that time period.

16 May 2013, 04:52

fla3006

quote:
boom stick: So a 404 on a M98 would be the most used bolt action cart combo of the twenties?

Probably so. Many were issued to game rangers. The 416 was a proprietary cartridge and not that many 416s were actually built by Rigby in pre-war times. It's likely that many more German 9.3s and 10.75s were used by settlers, farmers, big bore or not.

16 May 2013, 05:03

505G

fla

That is exactly how I read it as well.

Wasn't the 425WR a proprietary cartridge as well.

That one issue had a hell of a lot to do with
how many guns were made in a calibre.

470 Nitro being a good example of what happens
when a cartridge is released to the trade as
opposed to the 500/465 which wasn't so much.

16 May 2013, 05:46

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by silvertip1:
where are these figures coming from. Are there published figures for all of the Rifle firms during that time period? Or published figures from all of the Professional Hunters during that time period.

Would be difficult to get published data on this.
What wa the most common action in the 20's for the 10.75x68?

16 May 2013, 06:13

505G

Whatever the most common action was in Europe
during that time - which was probably the
Mauser 98.

16 May 2013, 08:23

RIP

The 404 Jeffery was out and about as early as 1905.
It was the first truly successful bolt action dangerous game rifle, and all the rest that followed never did the all-around job quite as well.
It is still as good as it gets.
My gestalt would be that in the 1920's the 404 Jeffery was King of the Hill numerically too,
as was the M98 action.
And both are still the best at what they do.

16 May 2013, 15:26

Karl

I'd probably agree with OP and give it to the 9.3 and allow it into bigbores of the day just because they took the same game.Also despite how we classify cartridges from .177 to 700 nitro according to our safari naming conventions fact is vast majority of animals shot then was probably by regular landowners using everything from small exmil calibres to smoothbore shotguns to see game off. A dedicated hunting 9.3 or 375 would have been 'a big rifle' to the average boer, retired soldier, poor settler or black poacher who probably never read a book or met a guy with a 404, 11.2 etc

16 May 2013, 18:37

boom stick

I guess maybe another way to ask my question would be to ask what big bore bolt actions foreigners would buy to hunt Africa in the 20's. Would non residents in large numbers purchase 10.75x68's?

16 May 2013, 19:37

505G

boom stick

I really think it depends on where people came from.

Euro's buy European or maybe English

Poms buy 404

Yanks - whatever Griffin and Howe or one
of the other big shops had available.

Or even a 405 Winchester Lever Action

Just my HO.

16 May 2013, 20:07

capoward

quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
boom stick

I really think it depends on where people came from.

Euro's buy European or maybe English

Poms buy 404

Yanks - whatever Griffin and Howe or one
of the other big shops had available.

Or even a 405 Winchester Lever Action

Just my HO.

Very cogent comments...

16 May 2013, 22:06

boom stick

G&H opened in 1923. Seems G&H were making 375 magnums and 400 Whelens (on long Mausers)in a 1925 catalog I saw. Not many American choices. I would wager that a lot of Americans used English rifles.

16 May 2013, 23:13

505G

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
G&H opened in 1923. Seems G&H were making 375 magnums and 400 Whelens (on long Mausers)in a 1925 catalog I saw. Not many American choices. I would wager that a lot of Americans used English rifles.

Thanks for that. Good info.

Agree re Americans used English Rifles.

G&H definately brought in guns from the
UK, but I have this nagging feeling that
someone else in the US was also
"outfitting" people.

I'll have a think / search.

Nigel

17 May 2013, 01:08

Cross L

quote:
G&H definately brought in guns from the
UK, but I have this nagging feeling that
someone else in the US was also
"outfitting" people.

I believe Abercrombie and fitch was one of the big ones-IIRC they even had an in-store shooting range.

17 May 2013, 01:15

505G

Yep, that was it, Abercrombie and fitch.

I was going to look up my Ernest Hemingway
books as I was sure it was mentioned in one
of them.

So does anyone have a catalogue from that era
for them that we could possibly see what they
sold ?

17 May 2013, 02:04

heavenknows

Let´s better choose Von Lengerke&Detmold which was sold to Abercrombie and Fitch in 1928.

At that time VL&D offerd the following Big Bore rifles:
Gibbs rifles(Mauser actioned) .505 , .404 ,
Rigby rifles : .416

Ammo listed :
10,75 Mauser
.404 Jeffrey
.416 Rigby
.425 Westly Richards
.500 Magnum Nitro Express
.505 Gibbs

The above listing when "Big Bore" starts at 10,75 resp .404 bore

17 May 2013, 02:20

505G

Good info.

Interesting about the 505 Gibbs considering
it only came out in 1911 and not many were
made by Gibbs and it was a bit of a
proprietary calibre.

17 May 2013, 05:29

Atkinson

African big bores in the 1920s were pretty well limited to the 98 Mauser. the 9.3x62 was popular in the German communities and Namibia. The 404 was the issue caliber Mauser in almost if not all the Game Depts. The .416 Rigby was not used very much as it could only be had in Rigby rifles and they were high dollar. Its popularity came along with Rouark and Hemmingway as I recall...The 425 WR had a modicum of popularity or at least it was available, but again only available in high dollar guns..

Many of the hunters actually used the 7x57 Mauser, the 303 British for all their big game hunting including elephants and for a time the 6.5 Manlichers and such were deemed Lion medicine..

Americans used the mod. 95 Win in .405 and the 1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06 was potent medicine and still is today.

Later in the 30s the .375 H&H seemed to own the African bush in Mausers and later the mod 70 Win.

The big bore Mausers, like the 500 Jeffery's and 505 Gibbs came to play early on somewhere in this scenario but I can't recall just what years they showed up, but their use was and still is limited to a few brave souls who have nerve disorders..

Back then and early on, frican folks depended on marksmanship to get by and money was tight so they used what they had..The British were more affluent and they used the high dollar stuff.

At least that is what I have gleaned from reading history on the subject.

17 May 2013, 05:29

PD999

Yep, very interesting re. the 505 Gibbs; a true and great big-bore cartridge.

17 May 2013, 05:45

505G

quote:
1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06

Atkinson

Good summary.

I think you are spot on with this as this is the
gun I was trying to think of.
"1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06"

I think that would just about cover it !!!

17 May 2013, 06:39

boom stick

Thanks Atkins for a great reply. Where does the 10.75x68 fit in in your 1920's popularity summary?

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
African big bores in the 1920s were pretty well limited to the 98 Mauser. the 9.3x62 was popular in the German communities and Namibia. The 404 was the issue caliber Mauser in almost if not all the Game Depts. The .416 Rigby was not used very much as it could only be had in Rigby rifles and they were high dollar. Its popularity came along with Rouark and Hemmingway as I recall...The 425 WR had a modicum of popularity or at least it was available, but again only available in high dollar guns..

Many of the hunters actually used the 7x57 Mauser, the 303 British for all their big game hunting including elephants and for a time the 6.5 Manlichers and such were deemed Lion medicine..

Americans used the mod. 95 Win in .405 and the 1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06 was potent medicine and still is today.

Later in the 30s the .375 H&H seemed to own the African bush in Mausers and later the mod 70 Win.

The big bore Mausers, like the 500 Jeffery's and 505 Gibbs came to play early on somewhere in this scenario but I can't recall just what years they showed up, but their use was and still is limited to a few brave souls who have nerve disorders..

Back then and early on, frican folks depended on marksmanship to get by and money was tight so they used what they had..The British were more affluent and they used the high dollar stuff.

At least that is what I have gleaned from reading history on the subject.

17 May 2013, 08:33

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
African big bores in the 1920s were pretty well limited to the 98 Mauser. the 9.3x62 was popular in the German communities and Namibia. The 404 was the issue caliber Mauser in almost if not all the Game Depts. The .416 Rigby was not used very much as it could only be had in Rigby rifles and they were high dollar. Its popularity came along with Rouark and Hemmingway as I recall...The 425 WR had a modicum of popularity or at least it was available, but again only available in high dollar guns..

Many of the hunters actually used the 7x57 Mauser, the 303 British for all their big game hunting including elephants and for a time the 6.5 Manlichers and such were deemed Lion medicine..

Americans used the mod. 95 Win in .405 and the 1903 Springfield 30-03 or 30-06 was potent medicine and still is today.

Later in the 30s the .375 H&H seemed to own the African bush in Mausers and later the mod 70 Win.

The big bore Mausers, like the 500 Jeffery's and 505 Gibbs came to play early on somewhere in this scenario but I can't recall just what years they showed up, but their use was and still is limited to a few brave souls who have nerve disorders..

Back then and early on, frican folks depended on marksmanship to get by and money was tight so they used what they had..The British were more affluent and they used the high dollar stuff.

At least that is what I have gleaned from reading history on the subject.

Take it from Ray ----- he is almost old enough to have been around then

17 May 2013, 10:04

Nakihunter

The 416 Rigby was a proprietary cartridge and less than 200 rifles were made by Rigby before WW II. Many went to India. So Africa had a relatively small number.

The 10.75X68 (aka 423 Mauser) was a Govenment issue to game wardens in East Africa. I am not sure if that started in the 20s or later but there were many such rifles in Africa. JA Hunter refers to it in one of his books. Bullet failure was an issue with the 347 gr projectiles.

17 May 2013, 10:19

505G

Naki

You reckon more 10.75's than 404's ?

I would be surprised at that.

17 May 2013, 11:20

boom stick

I am finding it puzzling that the 423 Mauser and 404 Jeffery are not more popular today although the 404J has become a lot more so in the last 5 years.

17 May 2013, 12:13

505G

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I am finding it puzzling that the 423 Mauser and 404 Jeffery are not more popular today although the 404J has become a lot more so in the last 5 years.

Here is my HO.

Ruark and others made the 416R "the" calibre
and as such the popularity of the .423 cals
decreased.

Except for those "in the know" you might say !

17 May 2013, 20:41

Dave Bush

1. 9,3X62
2. 404 Jeffery

The .416 Rigby, while a great cartridge, did not play a big role in the 20s nor did the .375 H&H. There were only about 200 Rigbys made before 1980 and the .375 didn't really take off until after WWII.

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).

17 May 2013, 20:59

Biebs

Dave, when I saw you posted, I thought for sure you would name the 338 RCM :-)

17 May 2013, 21:12

Dave Bush