http://forums.accuratereloadin...611058421#8611058421

Some of you would have seen this project in the past.

I am not able to get the rifle to shoot on paper.

At the moment the load is very slow - 1900 fps with 270 gr Sierra GK. I can go up to 2200 fps.

Will it shoot lower with less barrel time (higher velocity?). My feeling is that higher velocity will make it shoot even higher.

The comb is high and the heel is also high. Should I reduce that by 0.25 or 0.5 inch?

I can put a scope on it but that may still be an issue with such a high point of impact AND if it gets worse with higher velocity. I want it shooting with iron sights first.

I dearly want to take the rifle into the bush.

Comb should not effect it if you line up sights. Move rear sight in direction you want impact to move. Front sight opposite.

Taller front site.

Thanks guys.

I forgot to mention that I am at the extreme limits already. Cannot make a taller fore sight as my head / cheek on the stock cannot go any lower - and the rear sight cannot go lower.

Those who know these rifles in their original configuration will know that the light weight, steel but pad and the big drop at heel resulted in a very lively if not unpleasant recoil.

I decided to go for a much straighter stock. Hence my question if I should drop it just a bit.

Here's what i do to rough in sites ..

take a matchstick or toothpick, hotglue it to the front sight, use a marker to make it black, and trim it down ...

you don't need your head to go lower, just trim the matchstick with a side cut wire cutter and SEE if it can work .. costs next to nothing

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thanks guys.

I forgot to mention that I am at the extreme limits already. Cannot make a taller fore sight as my head / cheek on the stock cannot go any lower - and the rear sight cannot go lower.

...

Do what jeffeosso says, or just do some math.

Your cheek on the stock stays the same.
Your picture of the rear sight stays the same.
Having the taller sight makes you point the barrel lower when the front and rear are lined up.
You know that!
Taller front sight is needed.
Simple math to calculate by how much higher the sight must be, for a given sight radius,
see the Brownell's catalog,
or just sketch out the similar triangles and do the proportionality.

1. At what range are you 15" high?

2. What is the straight line distance in inches between the front sight bead and the rear sight notch, if open sight, or aperture if peep rear sight?

That is what is needed to calculate how much taller your front sight needs to be.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Thanks guys.

The rifle is 24 inch barrel so the gap between front and rear sight must be around 21 inches. It is 15" high at 100 meters.

When I say I am at extremes, current sight picture with cheek as low and stable as possible is the front sight flush with V of rear sight. Rifle points to target like it was measured and fitted for me! I can pick it up quickly, mount it and point at a telegraph pole 200 meters away at the "+" on top and the rifle sights are perfectly aligned!

If the front sight is made even 1 mm higher, the sight picture will not be level with top of V. It will definitely stick above the V.

Ok so then I just place that high front sight on target - 6 oclock & I will automatically be aiming a bit low.

Got it ... I hope.

The real question for me is why it shoots so high above the line of sight (bore sighted). Is it the bedding & the fore-end pin causing extra vibrations and throwing the shot up?

Like mentioned earlier it's still in need of a taller front sight. Your cheek or rear sight position relative to the front sight won't change. Only the barrel will point lower. Trying to find an open sight combination by bore sighting isn't the way.

You need only about a 0.080" taller front sight.
2.03 mm is all.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Like mentioned earlier it's still in need of a taller front sight. Your cheek or rear sight position relative to the front sight won't change. Only the barrel will point lower. Trying to find an open sight combination by bore sighting isn't the way.

+1

quote:

When I say I am at extremes, current sight picture with cheek as low and stable as possible is the front sight flush with V of rear sight. Rifle points to target like it was measured and fitted for me! I can pick it up quickly, mount it and point at a telegraph pole 200 meters away at the "+" on top and the rifle sights are perfectly aligned!

quote:

Reply

Yes a taller front sight is what you should do. Yes your cheek weld and perfect fit of the rifle is about to change slightly.
Yes it should work fine after you adapt.
We often forget that the two things one aligns on a long gun is your eye and the front sight. The rear sight helps us align our eye to the front sight. The front sight lets us know where the bullet is going to land done correctly. A rifle that fits as you describe is a gem but indeed the bullet has to land a bit closer than 15's high at 100 meters. This rifle fit thing kind of got not so important when we went to optics on rifles. then we all learned to compromise with fit. Where the reticle is set, parallax out of the equation, is where the bullet lands. Our head position became something few worried about. Not so much in the days of Iron. We can move our heads around with Irons too but it is very inconvenient and not conducive to fast accurate shooting.
We still see this demonstrated all the time in the shotgun world of competitive shooting. Fit and that front Bead is all there is. Consistent gun mount and cheek placement determines the outcome of the rest.
Just a discussion topic for you; so get a taller front sight in the profile your eye likes keep your cheek weld the same is my advice. Be prepared to have the rear sight portion of the picture look different. As long as you hold the 6 o clock picture with that taller front sight, your impacts will be lower because your aiming lower. The rear sight is now only providing a visual windage check. Changes on that should me made on the front sight as well if you want to keep that cheek weld.
Hope this helps. If not, ignore and put on that taller front sight!

Thanks guys. Easy to add 2mm to the front sight - I'll just solder it on at my workshop.

Now back to the other question - Why is it shooting so high given that it is a top grade rifle from the classic pre 1924 era and would have been properly regulated as claimed by the London retailer.

A rifles sights were regulated for a specific load. While the ammo we have today is outstanding, nothing available will duplicate the original load. Different projectile, different powder, and different velocity. The end result is factory ammo does not shoot to the same point of impact as the original stuff. Each rifle is an entity unto itself and some rifles will do just fine with modern stuff no problem.If you handload you might be able to find a load that will work with your sights. It is far easier to get or make a taller front sight.

Another likely cause is someone at some time got overly ambitious with a file and filed the front sight down too much.

I thought of the ammo. Original was for RN and I am using SP.

Front sight with blade profiled as a bead looks standard and identical to many photos on the web. Rifle was originally from a tea plantation in South India or Ceylon and had a replacement hardwood stock done by a village carpenter! Check my link to the other restocking post!

Well hopefully someone else has some ideas. Good luck

I have a lot of times, especially with big bores that at short range (50dye) light loads shoot higher, as you speed the load up it for some reason drives the shots lower on the target. I've had two 375s and a 458 do this. Try hotter loads.....might surprise you......

.

I agree with jtex. Increase the recoil!

Thanks, I was thinking that the shorter barrel time might change things.

Currently fire forming 9.3X57 Norma brass & also tried some Buffalo arms brass made from 35 Whelan stock.

Once I reach 2200 to 2250 fps with 270gr bullets we will have a better idea.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I have a lot of times, especially with big bores that at short range (50dye) light loads shoot higher, as you speed the load up it for some reason drives the shots lower on the target. I've had two 375s and a 458 do this. Try hotter loads.....might surprise you......

.

Ditto Eagle Dad.

Forget intuition and long range trajectories.

At a fixed, close range like 100 meters,
the rifle will shoot higher if the speed is slower and recoil is heavier,
if there is any muzzle rise as the bullet is traveling along the barrel, with dwell time in barrel.

Heavier recoil will make the barrel rise more during that dwell time:
Bullet will shoot higher.

Slower bullet will will have a greater dwell time in barrel,
so it will exit after the muzzle has risen further during the recoil:
Bullet will shoot higher.

To regulate the load to the existing sights, find a faster and lower recoil load.

That could mean simply a faster burning powder of lighter charge weight with same bullet at same velocity.
Like with Cordite which has a burn rate, IIRC, similar to IMR-3031 or Hodgdon Benchmark.
Modern fast-burner powders will likely require a filler, like foam wad or Dacron fluff,
to eliminate the powder shake with air space in the loaded case,
for uniformity and accuracy.

Or try a lighter bullet at faster speed to reduce recoil and increase speed,
which means decreased dwell time in barrel and less muzzle rise.
You might find the right load to make your POI coincide with your POA using current front sight unaltered.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Thanks once again.

RIP you never cease to surprise / amaze me mate.

BTW your signature line is bringing back teen age memories of shooting striped squirrels in India with a .22 air rifle. What fun it was!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

BTW your signature line is bringing back teen age memories of shooting striped squirrels in India with a .22 air rifle. What fun it was!

The greatest total "bag" of my hunting career has been grey squirrels in Kentucky with a .22 air rifle. Great fun indeed!

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Brownell used to make and maybe still do, plastic front sights, a post affair with notches, stick them in the front sight dovetail and sight in the gun. measure the sight after sight in, and order a real sight that matches..They were or are about $1.50 per dozen. Ive saved all the ones I have used and reuse them..

Jeffeoso doest the same with a matchstick and a little glue, and I don't see why that wouldn't work as wall..

Changing the front sight height won't change the way you hold or point a rifle, that's just someones imagination! It doesn't take much to change that 15 inches high to or 3 inches high..For a peep sight I use a NECG gold face post that's .500 tall and file it off to zero, a dab of cold blue on top and its ready to go..This would work with barrel mounted sights also, but a square face pulled down into the notch isn't a good fit IMO, but if you take the same and sight in to flush with the top (like a pistol sight picture) then its an awesomely fast and accurate set up...

Rip,
thanks for saying it -- i've had several discussions with EGG-SPURTS on impact vs vel -- and then showed them with a chrony -- it's amazing how people will refute data THEY created ... same weight bullet going faster hits lower.. lighter bullet going MUCH faster hits lower... it just physics 101

I have just added a 1mm taller front sight to my 7x65R that was shooting 6" high with open sights. It still lines up as I point it. Just need to test fire it now.

Well I do have a good imagination but on the matter of iron's sights and head position; not.

Draw a 12" straight line, to represent a rifle barrel and head position. Put three dots on it. At the front end, at the middle, and at the rear end. The actual line length on a rifle is more like 26" to 30" but this will do. Now put another dot just above the one at the front end that is your newer higher front sight. Now draw another straight line from that dot to the middle dot and then on towards the dot that is your eye position. About this time you should be getting my point about eye and thus head position. You can't get to that original last dot with your new straight line. You will have to create a new third dot to make that rear sight in the middle on the line and "looking" the same to your eye. When you move that third dot, you moved your head.
Of course it only takes a bit of change of your head in real life but it is a change.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rip,
thanks for saying it -- i've had several discussions with EGG-SPURTS on impact vs vel -- and then showed them with a chrony -- it's amazing how people will refute data THEY created ... same weight bullet going faster hits lower.. lighter bullet going MUCH faster hits lower... it just physics 101

Welcome, jeffe, my pleasure.
There is an illustration of this in the .458 WinMag thread just now posted:

A 500-grainer at 2124 fps may be zeroed at 25 yards.
A 409-grainer at 1182 fps will then shoot 4" higher at 25 yards with same sights.

Doing the bullet BCs and computer trajectory on those:
Speedy 500-grainer at 100 yards: 1" high
Slow-poke 409-grainer at 100 yards: 10" high

Even with the low recoil of the slow load, the barrel time was almost twice as long,
so the barrel had risen more by the time bullet exited.

Recoil dependent muzzle rise
vs
velocity dependent barrel time.

One can overcome the other and vice versa.

And stock of rifle (drop and pitch) may have effect on degree of muzzle rise with any recoil level.

And muzzle brakes with directional ports can decrease muzzle rise by more
than what they achieve by just reducing recoil.

Yep, simple physics.

Nakihunter can adjust his load to make it shoot to POA: Time consuming.
Or he can just raise his front sight by 2mm: Quick and easy.
His choice.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR

Rip
.

And better than simple ballistics is an hour at the 100 yard range...and testing to 400 is a big pluse out this way. Too many folks think bore sighting works or a 12 yd. (iron sight) or 25 yard (scope) zero works with all rifles and all calibers..It doesn't. Only the range will give one a better idea and bring home way more bacon..Most of us learn this the hard way..I know I did..

Nakihunter. Have you tried using the peep sight placing the bead as low as possible in the hole? Just a thought. Good luck with it.

Yes I have tried the diopter flip up "tool" and it lines up perfectly with the front and rear sight - point and shoot. That is actually the REAL problem - I cannot change the sight picture without losing the foresight! BTW the diopter tool is missing its disk with the 2 holes for 100 and 200 meters.

I guess I built the stock to fit me too perfectly

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
Nakihunter. Have you tried using the peep sight placing the bead as low as possible in the hole? Just a thought. Good luck with it.

Sounds so much like a conversation I had with Kimber on a Caprivi. They didn't understand that a rifle had to shoot on paper and that I needed a taller front sight -- that is all! And I shoot with the bead low in the groove.

Yup - as I said, I cannot get my cheek and head any lower and the sight picture is PERFECT every time I mount the rifle!

Bugger!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Sounds so much like a conversation I had with Kimber on a Caprivi. They didn't understand that a rifle had to shoot on paper and that I needed a taller front sight -- that is all! And I shoot with the bead low in the groove.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Sounds so much like a conversation I had with Kimber on a Caprivi. They didn't understand that a rifle had to shoot on paper and that I needed a taller front sight -- that is all! And I shoot with the bead low in the groove.

Or you could just shoot at a longer distance. Sooner or later you will find the perfect yardage and bullet drop.

At that velocity and point of impact I will have to shoot at 300 meters!

No mate - I want that to be a quick 20 to 150 meter rifle. I wish I could hunt a flushing duiker or wart hog with it. Or a whitetail / sika in thick woods like NZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Sounds so much like a conversation I had with Kimber on a Caprivi. They didn't understand that a rifle had to shoot on paper and that I needed a taller front sight -- that is all! And I shoot with the bead low in the groove.

Or you could just shoot at a longer distance. Sooner or later you will find the perfect yardage and bullet drop.

Maybe just try shooting uphill then.


(Now you know why you got such a good deal on the rifle.)

Good to see you have came back around to the answer you already knew. Taller front sight and stock work if you want it to "fit" like it did before. You can fit the correct front sight as others have instructed and then proving by shooting with compromised head position. Then if you must have that instant fit you want; you have work to do. Most folks just live with it largely because they don't intend to use the irons anyway.
Good luck!

Read OP and link

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Maybe just try shooting uphill then.


(Now you know why you got such a good deal on the rifle.)

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Read OP and link

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Maybe just try shooting uphill then.


(Now you know why you got such a good deal on the rifle.)

Nakihunter,
That was a perfect response, like telling him to go sit in the corner,
since shooting uphill (or downhill) will make it shoot higher than on a level shot at whatever range.

If you want perfection, do as Fury01 says.
It would not be necessary for my imperfect self to do the stock work part of it.
My fat and hairy face is quite compressible, and could easily absorb a 2 mm change in front sight height.
I would just have to re-learn how much to compress my face against the stock.
Kentucky elevation.

Or find a faster load, or a lighter kicking load, that allows the bullet to leave the barrel before the muzzle rises so much.
Keep the same stock fit and front sight height
if you can tune the load to perfection.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

There seems to be an underlying problem somewhere.

One of the other things that come to mind is barrel bind. I can't imagine barrel stress raising the point of impact quite that high. But, it wouldn't hurt to loosen the bottom metal screws and then remove the anchor bar in the fore stock and then just turn the action screws in just until they bottom out with no torque & shoot a few more rounds to see if you notice any difference. Check the screws after each round to make sure they are just bottomed out.

Another is a bent barrel. You could make a wooden edge of the top of the barrel contour with a notch for the rear sight and also the underside lug and compare top to bottom. Although I didn't do the math, a slight bend could make a huge difference at 100 yards out. You could also try a nice clean (no nicks) metal straight edge. Just tape it to the barrel with painters tape or electrical tape then measure the gap under it top and bottom at exactly the same place on the measurement and see if they match.

One step at a time brother.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Yes I have tried the diopter flip up "tool" and it lines up perfectly with the front and rear sight - point and shoot. That is actually the REAL problem - I cannot change the sight picture without losing the foresight! BTW the diopter tool is missing its disk with the 2 holes for 100 and 200 meters.

I guess I built the stock to fit me too perfectly

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
Nakihunter. Have you tried using the peep sight placing the bead as low as possible in the hole? Just a thought. Good luck with it.

Have you tried recrowning the muzzle. If crown is out of square it could cause to shooting high issue.

The simple fix is fine if you don't mind putting on a band-aide instead of solving the real problem. But, that's not my call. I'm just trying to help Nakihunter out. I understand he's spent several years on this project and I would like to see him finally enjoying it.