The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Open sights shooting 15 inches high - PLEASE HELPGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Opus1: 1. A same velocity or faster bullet with less recoil (less muzzle rise) will lower the impact point dramatically at 100 meters. This could be done most easily by adjusting one or two parameters, Nakihunter could try this. a) A lesser weight charge of faster burning powder used with a Dacron or packing foam filler: Reduces recoil, reduces muzzle rise, lowers point of impact at 100 meters. Same weight bullet at same velocity might work, if not, b) Lighter weight bullet with same load in a): Bullet will go faster and exit muzzle sooner, recoil will still be less than Nakihunter's original load and muzzle rise will be less, barrel time will be less, it will shoot even lower at 100 meters than in a). a) Might raise pressure too much, depending on pressure of original load. b) Might be same pressure or lower pressure than original load. A lighter bullet and working up with faster burning powder and filler is best way to go. Nakihunter will see where his starting load hits at 100 meters, and he will see the POI walk lower as powder charge is raised and velocity is increased, for 100 meter sight-in. At longer ranges the new load might have a better trajectory than the original load, if both were properly zeroed at 100 meters. 2. Throwing anvils at 100 meters is ridiculous. Just the opposite approach is needed. Again you got it exactly reversed. A very slow and heavy bullet with enough recoil to raise the muzzle significantly, might shoot even higher at 100 meters than original load: Longer barrel time plus greater barrel rise: Higher POI at 100 meters. Just trying to be ludicrous again? Whether you know it or not, you are succeeding. Go drink some more coffee.   Rip . | |||
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RIP, spend some time on a ballistics calculator and tell me how you drop 15" with bullet weight and load development alone on a 9.5X57 platform at 100 meters from where Naki is with his 1900 fps and 270 gr Sierra GK load. Here's an easy ballistics calculator as a guide - http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Truly a piece of "work" you are Opus1. Your ballistic calculator will do you no good for this opus. Like jeffeosso said ...  Rip . | |||
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Thanks for your comments. I'll check the barrel but I am quite sure it is not bent. I would have picked it up when bore sighting at 1 km distant Pine top.  BTW the rifle is a take down Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 & no action screws. The rotary magazine acts as one of the locking points and that is tight but the barrel chamber area was bedded and so it should not be under stress. Pl see link. Since it is a very complicated DIY restock project, there could be some stocking issues that I had not considered.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Good to see you here Sam! Good point, I will look at that and may be do a recrown job.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Thanks Rip, much appreciated mate. Just ignore Opus. He has been a nemesis for years. I thought he had me on ignore as he had not bothered me for a few months. He has come out of his hole, meaner and dumber I guess. If you read the OP you will see that I asked if reducing barrel time might lower POI. I did say that increasing velocity might make it shoot higher - the logic is from fine tuning 3000 fps loads for other rifles. But for such low pressure low velocity loads, you are spot on. Your comments are valid also because I am not shooting from a typical bench rest with sand bags etc. So the rifle does move when fired though the site picture is stable. I remember your help with 416 Rigby .... I am not confused at all. (contrary to Opus' claims) Fury01 helped me a lot too when he said "Good to see you have came back around to the answer you already knew. Taller front sight and stock work if you want it to "fit" like it did before. You can fit the correct front sight as others have instructed and then proving by shooting with compromised head position. Then if you must have that instant fit you want; you have work to do. Most folks just live with it largely because they don't intend to use the irons anyway. Good luck!" Sam has suggested recrowning. Anyone else with ideas about the stock, like custombolt posted? Many others have been genuinely trying to help. Thanks guys. 
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Naki, how many more times will it take? This is not something that baiing wire, kite string, school glue and load development can fix. So scrape up a few bucks and take your "project" to a competent gunsmith. The solution is actually quite simple. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Opus - You have no intention of helping, do you. Why do you not understand that everyone else is being supportive and actually understand what I have been doing for several years (7 years and 8 months to be precise) on this project. There has been a lot of passion, commitment, patience & real pleasure doing this and I am not going to allow your conduct to spoil it. I am just being polite and answering some of your questions and hope you will just go away & stop sidetracking this thread, which is very important to me 1. If I wanted to give it to a gunsmith, I would have done it 10 years ago 2. If you really read the post you will find that there are not too many gunsmiths who specialise in restocking a takedown Mannlicher Schoenauer. No one has come up with a recent example. 3. Many competent and experienced gunsmiths with many decades of experience have already made suggestions on the project. I corresponded privately with many & got a lot of help step by step. 4. Please read the link again - there is no one here in NZ who can do the job at a reasonable price. Robert Dollymore (ex Purdey) might if he wanted to and if he had the time between his various high end double gun jobs. But I do not have the $5000+ for that. No one here on AR came up with a name! I might have one from Australia but not definite. Add shipping and export / import costs. 5. Just try and understand where RIP, Fury001, Custombolt etc are coming from - it just might enlighten you and bring you in line with the others. Honestly, you may just become more constructive and less of a distraction / spoiler. Let me summarise what I plan to do next - going back to the project link would help those who are interested. 1. As Custombolt suggested - I will check the bedding and the tight rotary magazine latch. May be a few strokes with sandpaper will reduce the stock tension & bring down the POI. The tang hook is only an anchor point (bedded) and not a pressure point. The fore-end cross pin is also an anchor point and not a pressure point. I relieved under the little lug to avoid any further jump - that area is also bedded on the sides. I will check it again. I may even shoot it without the cross pin to see if it makes a difference. I am confident that the magazine floor plate & latch are the strongest locking point. Any suggestions from a stocking expert would be appreciated. 2. I will raise the foresight by 1 mm as RIP & others suggested & after fire forming all my 40 Norma 9.3X57 cases and the other Buffalo arms cases, I will increase velocity with a faster powder like H4198 or H322 (currently using IMR3031) 3. After getting more info on how it shoots - with proper chrony data & targets to compare, I will have a better idea - then I can look at Sam's suggestion of recrown.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Seven years and eight months???? Actually I am speechless... Good luck I suppose....  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I wish you had been speechless a while ago mate! You have contributed nothing useful at all. Not surprised - from what I know of you here on AR for all of 5 years! 
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Good work Nakihunter, you made him speechless, for however brief time that lasts!  9.5 X 57 MANNLICHER (375 NITRO 2½")  Great cartridge! http://www.cartridgecollector....er-375-nitro-2%C2%BD  Is not the usual load a .375/270-grainer at 2100-2200 fps? And you are doing only 1900 fps with IMR-3031? I do not know if above pictured load was 43.0 grains of Cordite or flake powder. Just getting my bearings here and will have to look back at your build thread and see if your rifle was marked with a powder charge ... http://forums.accuratereloadin...611058421#8611058421 Is your IMR-3031 charge less than 43.0 grains? Old rule of thumb was Cordite charge could be substituted with same weight of IMR-3031 AND A FILLER. Just speeding it up to 2200 fps may do the trick with IMR-3031. You might want to start fresh with BENCHMARK, same grains charge as your current IMR-3031 charge. Aussies make that for Hodgdon don't they? Almost identical in burn rate to IMR-3031. Whatever ADI-AR-number, and IIRC, there are several different subtypes of "BENCHMARK." I would have to Google that. H322 and lastly H4198 sound excellent. I would use a filler with any of your loads if there is any powder shake/air space at all. Dacron fluff, or 3/8"-diameter (smallest usual size) caulk-saver/backer rod: 3/8", 1/2", 5/8") cut long enough to lock things in place. It will bulge inside the case and fill the air space if it is long enough to be under a little pressure, not loose. Mark the length of rod you want and snip it with some sharp paper scissors. Or use a chamfer-sharpened .458-caliber case mouth and punch some foam wads out of any packing foam or filter foam lying about. Your POI will be lower at 100 yards, the faster you go. If not enough, try a .375/250-grainer (Sierra GK, Barnes TTSX, Swift A-frame, etc., some great bullets available.). Use same BENCHMARK or IMR-3031 starting load you are using now with the lighter bullet and go up in 1 grain increments until it is shooting where you want. 1900 fps with a 270-grainer was a great starting load. Time to speed it up a bit.  Rip . | |||
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Thanks RIP. Yes I have all the load data from many sources. 43 gr IMR 3031 is correct. Since I am fire forming 9.3X57 cases (they have a taper and need to be blown out & have the same head space on the shoulder) the velocity is less than what it would be in a correct sized case. Yes BM1 & BM2 are ADI powders and BM2 is the Hodgdon Benchmark. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/...ders/equivalents.asp Really appreciate that mate. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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So for years you run around the political forum calling everyone a racist, a bigot, a redneck, piss on America and Americans and now suddenly you want everyone to play helpful and concerned about your seven year and eight month "project" even after you have been told more than a few times how to properly correct the minor issue by more than a few highly qualified folks and now you're whining because some of us pointed out your folly? Really? U R A Clown.  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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It seems that everybody is helping, apart from you. Why don't you gather up all the voices in your head and take them somewhere other than a serious thread about shooting? Puerile buffoon. | |||
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No sweat.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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Ol'Puss1 is on ignore. He is the second on my list. ... as we were ... Nakihunter, So you are still fire-forming, eh? Blowing the 9.3x57 Mauser shoulder out to a wider diameter at same distance from breech bolt face, to form the 9.5x56mm MS (Austrian designation) aka 9.5x57mm MS (German designation) aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express (2-1/4"). OK, I got it now.  All well and good, but don't work on the "sight regulating loads" except with fully formed brass, made as uniform as practical. As I am sure you are aware: COTW says the European loads did 2,150 fps with 270-grainer and British loads did 2,100 fps with 270-grainer. COTW shows IMR-3031 44.0 grains for 2,150 fps with 270 SP. Graeme Wright showed historical load for the .375 Flanged NE 2.5" with 40 grains of Cordite and 270-grain bullet: 14.5 tpsi and 1,975 fps in 25" barrel. 14.0 tpsi and 2,050 fps in 30" barrel.  That is a skinny, tapered, flanged case that is 1/4"longer than the 9.5x56/57-MS, but might have less case capacity, or about the same? Regardless, you are working with low pressures in both. Have you read the Pierre van der Walt chapter on the 9.5x56/57 MS? That cartridge and rifle combo was "The Family Jewels" for him, growing up in SA, plains game hunting. He insists on calling it by the Austrian or English, not German: 9,5 x 56mm Mannlicher-Schonauer (.375 Rimless Nitro Express) 24" barrel: 270-gr bullet, IMR-3031 Max Load 45.0 gr: 2,250 fps 235-gr bullet, IMR-3031 max Load 47.5 gr: 2,400 fps I always take reported velocities with a grain of salt. But it sure looks like you have room to play with IMR-3031 or same charge weights of BENCHMARK. Interpolating: Max Load of 46.5 grains of IMR-3031 with 250-grain bullet ought to be knocking on the door of 2340 fps. I'd rather do that with BENCHMARK, if'twere I. Rip . | |||
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Thanks once again to all who have been helpful (except the one idiot). Let me make a few boast about this project and rifle. 1. The rifle gets my heart thumping and goose bumps rising each time I take it out of the safe! It has an X factor that has been noticed by my friends who have handled it. 2. The photos in the linked thread do not do justice to the stock wood and how it looks and feels. It just picks up and handles beautifully. 3. The original project thread also had a lot of helpful contribution - just look at the interest - over 9600 views shows the interest and support. Truly humbling. All this makes it a VERY SERIOUS gun issue, irrespective of the amateur DIY nature of the project. Here is the comparison of the 2 cases -  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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It has been raining most days - typical August - September weather here. We did get a few days of sunshine that was spent lazing around and a bit in the vege garden. I did a detailed review of my load info and I found a few interesting things. The 15" high loads were with fire forming of 9.3X57 brass using Re15, as I just wanted to use up the part can. The loads with Varget (ADI AR2208) using the Buffalo bore 35 Whelan reformed cases were on paper as per notes. No targets on hand to check. I also checked the rotary magazine closing tight into the stock and found a high spot in one corner. I scraped off the bedding compound (may be 0.5mm or less) and about 2 or 3 mm long & now the magazine base shuts firmly without any undue pressure. Time to get to the range and check it out again with new loads using IMR 3031. On a different scoped rifle (my Simson 9.3X62) I had another strange experience. While that rifle shoots most loads very well and very close POI (250gr TSX, 250 gr Bal Tip & 286 gr Lapua mega & Hornady RN) - it just threw the CEB Raptors way above. It did the same with another load - both using IMR3031. I didn't realise that change in powder could make such a BIG difference in point of impact. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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It is a complex matter. From 0 to 100 meters/yards, the angle that the barrel is pointing when bullet exits muzzle may be the most important determinant of relative POI, high or low. At longer range, the velocity and BC of the bullet have greater influence. Example: I chronographed two loads at 25 yards yesterday in the same rifle, A .458/465-grainer at 2157 fps MV and a .458/510-grainer at 2023 fps MV. The slower bullet shot about 1 inch higher at 25 yards. Play with those loads for your rifle. Rip . | |||
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Lot of posts for such a simple problem as changing the zero of a rifle..raise your front sight or lower your rear sight, that is the only fix with your present set up..Its not that complicated. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, with respect, please read the whole thread CAREFULLY and the original project as well. I repeat - I cannot lower the rear sight anymore. Yes I can increase the height of the fore sight but it will become an hindrance in the bush. It will still show above the "V". NOTE: The stock is very straight, fits very well, picks up & points perfectly with sight picture. I cannot get my cheek or eye any lower. In order to get a lower eye position, I will need to alter the stock and lower the comb (which will mess up the current proportions. Yes it is a simple issue if starting fresh. Now AFTER trying a lot of stuff, the rifle is shooting so high that I needed suggestions & new ides, which I now have. Also note the small high spot in the bedding of the magazine floor plate that was pulling the action very tight into the stock. Relieving that has definitely reduced the tension (similar to torque, if it was an action screw). Once again, please READ CAREFULLY the whole situation.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Well in all respect, going by your post, the stock is probably better suited for a scope. I would alter the stock by lowering the comb and heel for iron sight use..All my rifle are set up for irons, and I shoot a scope with them as well, but I was raised on low comb Win. mod. 54s and 70s, so when Bill Weaver came outwith the scope, we just put them on our guns and never knew better, so its never been an issue with me...I simply don't believe in this straight comb phenominum and the cheek piece weld. and its never been an issue with my hunting..I don't know how to solve your problem. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray now you understand the REAL issues. Yes I built it with the plan of scoping the rifle. The guy at Watts' Walnut who makes the CNC rings is doing the last lot. They are not cheap and will end up costing me NZ$350 by the time they reach me! DESPITE the straight stock, the rifle points AND the sights line up perfectly. That was how I built the rifle very carefully. It is common knowledge that these rifles were originally made very light with low comb and booted like a mule. That is why I made is just a tad heavier and straighter, without losing the classic slim look. It now feels like my 9.3X62 in recoil while the velocity is 400 fps slower with 270 gr bullets! It was about 1.5 lbs less than my 9.3
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Ultimately it's your rifle and your money but I still have to agree with Ray on this. Changing the front sight WILL NOT change the relationship of your check position on the stock. Only a change to the rear sight would potentially do that. The stock fit to sight relationship is based on the rear sight, not the front unless the whole combination is way out of whack to begin with. A front sight change is a very small (a little goes a long way) incremental change to create a very noticeable elevation difference. If you can feel the difference when mounting the rifle you must be extraordinarily picky about how the rifle fits. Earlier in this thread RIP gave the formula required. Changing loads to make the sights work seems to me to be the long way around the problem and an unsatisfactory one at that. But it's your project. Good luck with whatever you do. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Nakihunter, Wish you could drop by my shop, we would solve your problem pretty quick. With your stock and your comments, a new higher front sight would not be much higher at all, as 15 inches would certainly be no higher than .500 and probably much less..I would get a gold faced post from NECG at .500 the highest they offer an file it to zero with the use of a receiver sight that would fit that stock much better than barrel mounted sights due to your stock shape I suspect..Wish I had your gun in my hands to work on, but that, of course, can't happen. Your post,like many others on AR, make me elated in that I learned to shoot a scoped rifle with low combs, as that's all we had in the early Win. 54 and mod. 70 days..We never knew better, and what a blessing that has been. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Thanks Ray. The diopter flip up thingi on the tang lines up perfectly. I am sure that a higher fore sight like Jeff, RIP and others suggested will work. I will do it step by step as already mentioned. First step was to relieve the tension from the excess bedding that was hindering the closing of the rotary magazine. I am sure that alone would have put some upward pressure on the barrel as it is also bedded at the cross pin fore end area. Once I try it with the correct cases and loads, we will have a better idea. Typical NZ weather now - rain etc. Next couple of sunny days may be time visit my mate's farm. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Move the target up. Duh | |||
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Great idea. I will now teach all the deer in NZ to climb trees! 
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I read this thread and your other one with great interest, nice work all the way. IMHO, and it's worth exactly what it costs, I think that if your work on the bedding and using different loads doesn't fix your problem, then a taller front sight will. I say this from personal experience. About 25 years ago I bought a Winchester model 70 458WM. I took it out to shoot it the first time, the rifle fit me fine and the sights lined up perfectly, as yours did. However, it shot around 10" high at 50 yds as I recall. I wasn't using factory loads, they were reduced loads somewhere between heavy 45-70 and low 458'S.I knew I had a low front sight issue with those loads. I ended up installing a Lyman globe front sight and using the post insert which was a bit higher than the factory sight. I lucked up and it did the trick, I think I ended up about 1' high at 50yds, which was perfect. I used the same cheek position and the same sight picture. Like Ray said, I can't have your rifle in hand to experiment with. But if nothing else works, adding the matchstick to the front sight should tell you if you're on the right track. Just for information only. I'm looking forward to seeing what ends up resolving the problem. | |||
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Thank you sir I am traveling in India right now. Back in 10 days & then this will be one of the priorities as warm sunny weather come in. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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You are doing all this work for a load you intend to be "one and only" I hope? Kinda like regulating a double, if I read the OP correctly. As RIP and others have said, maybe finding the bullet/load that works out for you is better than fiddling the sight. _______________________ | |||
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Except sights on bolt action rifles are meant to be "fiddled" with till they line up. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Raise the front sight. Here is a sight calculator. It will tell you how much taller of a front sight you need. https://www.brownells.com/gunt...detail.htm?lid=13093 | |||
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I might recommend doing your load development. Ignore where the groups are on the target for now. Once you find a load you like, then adjust the sights to match the load. You may find in your load development that the sights are fine. Leo The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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That's the way most of us do it. Rip . | |||
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Thanks folk I was thinking the same. BTW I am in India visiting family and friends. Just back in my friends place after I took 2 days off to a national park and was thrilled to see a tiger at 10 feet! I'll post pics and report once I get settled.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Mark has the answer and Jeffoso does as well _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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When are the funerals? Just bein' a Typo Cop. You might want to fix that typo as it is so unpleasant. Rip . | |||
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Based on what Ive read and as I understand it now you have only two choices, a horseshoe rasp or a scope in high rings! Good luck and let us know, Id like to see a pictures of the rifle if possible.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...611058421#8611058421
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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