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I am asking about links to various threads about this, considering this: http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9085[url] where it it is claimed that a 500 grs bullet will penetrate better from a .45-70 than from a .458WinMag, and also the .458 Lott. Yea, I know it is hogwash, but even if I search, I can not seem to find the good threads here to find the best information. Any help is apretiated. Thanks, Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | ||
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No idea about those 2 calibers, but I did the test (on a bet that I won) using wet Atlanta phone books with 308 Vs 300 mag & 7x57 Vs 7 mag and using the same SP bullets, the slower bullets always beat the faster ones by 30% or more. Even with nos partitions. That said, it would be hard to explain how that 45-70 beat the 458 lott & 460 W using solids. I ain't saying he's lying, but I'd sure like to see it verified in person. Or I'd just like to have the physical laws, that allow it, explained to me. EG: faster solids are tumbling etc. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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well... the 45/70 out penetrating the 458 lott is rubbish. Dave E, 470mbogo here, did this SPECIFIC test on his website http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Several times a year across the US, John Linebaugh puts on seminars showing the penetrating ability of slow moving, heavy cast revolver bullets. I personally participated in one in Cody, Wyoming, a few years back. It was attended by over a hundred folks from as far away as Alaska and south Florida. That one was written up by John Taffin in the magazines. Using thoroughly water soaked tightly bundled newspapers, we were all surprised by how deeply those revolver bullets penetrated. And it wasn't trick ammo. We all brought our own ammo and guns. We shot and measured the holes ourselves. I brought a 460 Wby, a 500 Nitro, and a 500 A-Square. Others brought 45-70, 458 Win Mag, 375 H&H, etc. The African rifle calibers make larger diameter holes than the 475 and 500 caliber handguns, but those handgun bullets do penetrate. May be able to check later, but at this time do not remember the specific penetrating depths of the 45-70 and 458 Win Mag with 500 grain bullets. Have had the physics of it explained to me by PhD level folks. Am not qualified to recite their explanation. | |||
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I have shot threw 6" of a oak blank with my 458 Lott using a 500 gr bullet at 2300 FPS. I shot from 50 yds. Bullet hole was the same size coming out as going in maybe a slight bit larger. Was a SN bullet. | |||
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the "magic" is the bullet shape (flat nose conical), the lack of expansion and the fact that the faster you hit an object the harder it is. yes the same flat nose solids traveling faster will penetrate more. flat nose solids are better penetrators than softs and round nose bullets. but penetration is not everything. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Next time I run into a Cape Buff made out of wet newspappers and/or phone books, I'll shoot it with my 45/70 without any worries  | |||
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i am now REALLY scared, if a 45/70 going slower out penetrates a 458 lott, then what happens if I drop a 500gr flatpoint off my reloading desk? look out china!! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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If the 45-70-500 hits your bare foot, it could hurt. My experience with cape buffalo has been with the 500 Nitro Express 3 1/4 inch, using 570 solids mostly. Have no knowledge of what a 45-70 or any other 458 bullet does to cape buffalo. Did use a 45-70-405 on an American bison bull once. Bull did not move after first hit, but I did have time to shoot it twice more with the Sharps before it fell. Note that all cape buffalo have not fallen to the first shot from 500 Nitro either. | |||
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http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm These guys argue the point for slower bullets as well, though I didn't notice while surfing around anything mentioned in those heavier weights you mention. "Hunt smart, know your target and beyond" | |||
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  its a good thing the chinese dont have 45-70's it is a goldilocks theory...not too fast, not too slow but with a flat nose solid the penetration/velocity ratio drops off at high velocity albeit the faster a non deforming solid can be driven without deforming the more penetration. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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so in short use flat nose bullets!!! unless you are shooting over 200 yards 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Thanks for the "physics" lesson  . I assume you are still talking about solids. I definitely believe SP bullets at slower velocities will usually out-penetrate the same bullet at higher velocity."You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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I noticed your qualifiers (definitely and usually) that are contradictory, making for the uncertainty that is a realistic assessment. Indeed, it depends, there are no absolutes, and everything is relative. Viking law applies to softpoint bullets too. One slow soft (whether spitzer or roundnose) may not open at all and quickly tumble end-over-end and penetrate little. Another soft may open more with increasing velocity and then with higher still velocity fold its expanded petals back to smaller frontal area or blow them off and penetrate even better at higher velocity. | |||
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Thanks, all! Could this also be the cause? https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/779105866 Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Alf, You are getting so much better! This explanation I agree with. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Having shot a real live elephant with a heavy handgun load and a few with a rifle...  Penetration from the hadgun was marginal on a side brain shot. All my rifle bullets have gone completely through the head, even from frontal. And while I may think my 9,3 is a super round- it doesn't out penetrate a .458 Lott at full load! | |||
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It is amazing how many "facts" people "know" that just ain't so! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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This is the first time I have seen you admit that there might be something better than the 9.3x62! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will! He didn't say the 458 Lott was a "better" cartridge he said it penetrated better than a 9.3. There is a difference. Penetration is just one factor in rating cartridges.  465H&H | |||
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465H&H, I know that Ganyana will come up with some reasons! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will Why a 9,3x62 is better than a .458 Lott a) It still kills everything I shoot at with it b) I can have it in a 7lb rifle that doesn't kick the bejabbers out of me.  They are having another go in August at removing some of the bone shards from my shoulder, so if they get that right maybe I'll be able to shoot my 500/.416 without  | |||
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As I suspected! You are hiding what you shoot at. My CZ 9.3x62 weighs a whopping 7.92 lbs. I'm jealous of your 7 pounder. Maybe I should get one of the those 1 lb. stocks from McMillan. August? You'll be healed up by then! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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This is the result of a litte knowledge is a dangerous thing.. Some have written that by slowing down a bullet one gets more penetration because the bullet gets less resistense and less deformation..This is only true to a certain extent. To even think that a 45-70 can outperform a .458 or a Lott is ridiculas and without merit. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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It's possible that the faster one will tumble at a shallower depth of penetration. But why in the world would one choose a solid, and then choose a crappy round nose one, when it's well established that a flat-nosed bullet will penetrate MUCH further? That's the question that matters. (Incidentally, Garrett makes darned fine .45-70 cartridges, even if he overestimates their capabilities.) Pertinax | |||
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