Info about penetration tests?

12 June 2007, 18:37

Bent Fossdal

I am asking about links to various threads about this, considering this:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9085[url]
where it it is claimed that a 500 grs bullet will penetrate better from a .45-70 than from a .458WinMag, and also the .458 Lott. Yea, I know it is hogwash, but even if I search, I can not seem to find the good threads here to find the best information. Any help is apretiated.

Thanks,

12 June 2007, 19:14

brayhaven

quote:
Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I am asking about links to various threads about this, considering this:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9085[url]
where it it is claimed that a 500 grs bullet will penetrate better from a .45-70 than from a .458WinMag, and also the .458 Lott. Yea, I know it is hogwash, but even if I search, I can not seem to find the good threads here to find the best information. Any help is apretiated.

Thanks,

No idea about those 2 calibers, but I did the test (on a bet that I won) using wet Atlanta phone books with 308 Vs 300 mag & 7x57 Vs 7 mag and using the same SP bullets, the slower bullets always beat the faster ones by 30% or more. Even with nos partitions. That said, it would be hard to explain how that 45-70 beat the 458 lott & 460 W using solids. I ain't saying he's lying, but I'd sure like to see it verified in person. Or I'd just like to have the physical laws, that allow it, explained to me. EG: faster solids are tumbling etc.

12 June 2007, 19:41

jeffeosso

well...
the 45/70 out penetrating the 458 lott is rubbish.

Dave E, 470mbogo here, did this SPECIFIC test on his website
http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

12 June 2007, 19:42

Hammer

Several times a year across the US, John Linebaugh puts on seminars showing the penetrating ability of slow moving, heavy cast revolver bullets. I personally participated in one in Cody, Wyoming, a few years back. It was attended by over a hundred folks from as far away as Alaska and south Florida. That one was written up by John Taffin in the magazines.

Using thoroughly water soaked tightly bundled newspapers, we were all surprised by how deeply those revolver bullets penetrated. And it wasn't trick ammo. We all brought our own ammo and guns. We shot and measured the holes ourselves. I brought a 460 Wby, a 500 Nitro, and a 500 A-Square. Others brought 45-70, 458 Win Mag, 375 H&H, etc. The African rifle calibers make larger diameter holes than the 475 and 500 caliber handguns, but those handgun bullets do penetrate.

May be able to check later, but at this time do not remember the specific penetrating depths of the 45-70 and 458 Win Mag with 500 grain bullets.

Have had the physics of it explained to me by PhD level folks. Am not qualified to recite their explanation.

12 June 2007, 19:55

jro45

I have shot threw 6" of a oak blank with my 458 Lott using a 500 gr bullet at 2300 FPS. I shot from 50 yds.

Bullet hole was the same size coming out as going in maybe a slight bit larger. Was a SN bullet.

12 June 2007, 20:05

boom stick

the "magic" is the bullet shape (flat nose conical), the lack of expansion and the fact that the faster you hit an object the harder it is. yes the same flat nose solids traveling faster will penetrate more. flat nose solids are better penetrators than softs and round nose bullets. but penetration is not everything.

12 June 2007, 20:09

AzGuy

Next time I run into a Cape Buff made out of wet newspappers and/or phone books, I'll shoot it with my 45/70 without any worries

12 June 2007, 20:11

jeffeosso

i am now REALLY scared, if a 45/70 going slower out penetrates a 458 lott, then what happens if I drop a 500gr flatpoint off my reloading desk?

look out china!!

12 June 2007, 20:19

Hammer

If the 45-70-500 hits your bare foot, it could hurt.

My experience with cape buffalo has been with the 500 Nitro Express 3 1/4 inch, using 570 solids mostly.

Have no knowledge of what a 45-70 or any other 458 bullet does to cape buffalo.

Did use a 45-70-405 on an American bison bull once. Bull did not move after first hit, but I did have time to shoot it twice more with the Sharps before it fell.

Note that all cape buffalo have not fallen to the first shot from 500 Nitro either.

12 June 2007, 20:53

Unit5A

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm

These guys argue the point for slower bullets as well, though I didn't notice while surfing around anything mentioned in those heavier weights you mention.

12 June 2007, 21:49

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i am now REALLY scared, if a 45/70 going slower out penetrates a 458 lott, then what happens if I drop a 500gr flatpoint off my reloading desk?

look out china!!

its a good thing the chinese dont have 45-70's

it is a goldilocks theory...not too fast, not too slow but with a flat nose solid the penetration/velocity ratio drops off at high velocity albeit the faster a non deforming solid can be driven without deforming the more penetration.

12 June 2007, 22:29

ALF

12 June 2007, 22:44

boom stick

so in short use flat nose bullets!!! unless you are shooting over 200 yards

13 June 2007, 07:20

brayhaven

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Sadly this is true for his test but one has to look carefully at what is compared in the test.

So this is a smoke and mirrors claim whereby apples are compared to oranges!

Thanks for the "physics" lesson

. I assume you are still talking about solids. I definitely believe SP bullets at slower velocities will usually out-penetrate the same bullet at higher velocity.

13 June 2007, 09:22

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by brayhaven:
quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Sadly this is true for his test but one has to look carefully at what is compared in the test.

So this is a smoke and mirrors claim whereby apples are compared to oranges!

Thanks for the "physics" lesson . I assume you are still talking about solids. I ***definitely*** believe SP bullets at slower velocities will ***usually*** out-penetrate the same bullet at higher velocity.

I noticed your qualifiers (definitely and usually) that are contradictory, making for the uncertainty that is a realistic assessment.

Indeed, it depends, there are no absolutes, and everything is relative. Viking law applies to softpoint bullets too.

One slow soft (whether spitzer or roundnose) may not open at all and quickly tumble end-over-end and penetrate little.

Another soft may open more with increasing velocity and then with higher still velocity fold its expanded petals back to smaller frontal area or blow them off and penetrate even better at higher velocity.

13 June 2007, 12:30

Bent Fossdal

Thanks, all!

Could this also be the cause?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/779105866

13 June 2007, 14:20

Will

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Sadly this is true for his test but one has to look carefully at what is compared in the test.

If you take a 45 cal 500 gr RN bullet and you fire that at 3 different velocities, one at 45-70 velocity, one at 458 Win Velocity and one at 458 Lott velocity into a primarily visco elastic material the following would be applicable:

1. The resistance to penetration would be velocity dependent and the relationship is exponential.... the greater the velocity the greater the drag so that the faster the bullet goes the more it is slowed down with an ever diminishing return in penetration as speed goes up. There is however not a reversal in the upawr curve, not within our ballisitics model with limits determined by chamber pressure.

2. As these are RN bullets they will tumble thus leading to a lack of penetration. The time in target it takes to tumble then dependent on a number of factors.

Now what Garret has done is to use FN bullets for his comparison. He negates the instability factor in the test by using the FN and correctly now finds that the 45-70 outpenetrates the 458 win and Lott using RN bullets.

If he takes his bullets and loads those into the 45-70, the 458 Win and Lott then all is equal and he will find that the 458 Win will outpenetrate the 45-70 and likewise the Lott will outpenetate the Win.

However the gain in penetration per unit of velocity is not linear, it will deminish in a exponential fashion.

So this is a smoke and mirrors claim whereby apples are compared to oranges!

Alf,

You are getting so much better! This explanation I agree with.

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13 June 2007, 15:06

Ganyana

Having shot a real live elephant with a heavy handgun load and a few with a rifle... bsflag

Penetration from the hadgun was marginal on a side brain shot. All my rifle bullets have gone completely through the head, even from frontal. And while I may think my 9,3 is a super round- it doesn't out penetrate a .458 Lott at full load!

13 June 2007, 16:30

El Deguello

quote:
Yea, I know it is hogwash, but even if I search, I can not seem to find the good threads here to find the best information

It is amazing how many "facts" people "know" that just ain't so!

13 June 2007, 20:19

Will

quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Having shot a real live elephant with a heavy handgun load and a few with a rifle... Penetration from the hadgun was marginal on a side brain shot. All my rifle bullets have gone completely through the head, even from frontal. And while I may think my 9,3 is a super round- it doesn't out penetrate a .458 Lott at full load!

This is the first time I have seen you admit that there might be something better than the 9.3x62!

13 June 2007, 20:35

465H&H

Will!

He didn't say the 458 Lott was a "better" cartridge he said it penetrated better than a 9.3. There is a difference. Penetration is just one factor in rating cartridges.

465H&H

13 June 2007, 21:42

Will

465H&H,

I know that Ganyana will come up with some reasons!

14 June 2007, 16:41

Ganyana

Will
Why a 9,3x62 is better than a .458 Lott

a) It still kills everything I shoot at with it
b) I can have it in a 7lb rifle that doesn't kick the bejabbers out of me.

They are having another go in August at removing some of the bone shards from my shoulder, so if they get that right maybe I'll be able to shoot my 500/.416 without

14 June 2007, 21:28

Will

quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Will
Why a 9,3x62 is better than a .458 Lott

a) It still kills everything I shoot at with it
b) I can have it in a 7lb rifle that doesn't kick the bejabbers out of me.

They are having another go in August at removing some of the bone shards from my shoulder, so if they get that right maybe I'll be able to shoot my 500/.416 without

As I suspected! You are hiding what you shoot at.

My CZ 9.3x62 weighs a whopping 7.92 lbs. I'm jealous of your 7 pounder. Maybe I should get one of the those 1 lb. stocks from McMillan.

August? You'll be healed up by then!

14 June 2007, 23:27

Atkinson

This is the result of a litte knowledge is a dangerous thing..

Some have written that by slowing down a bullet one gets more penetration because the bullet gets less resistense and less deformation..This is only true to a certain extent.

To even think that a 45-70 can outperform a .458 or a Lott is ridiculas and without merit.

16 June 2007, 00:00

pertinax

It's possible that the faster one will tumble at a shallower depth of penetration. But why in the world would one choose a solid, and then choose a crappy round nose one, when it's well established that a flat-nosed bullet will penetrate MUCH further?

That's the question that matters. (Incidentally, Garrett makes darned fine .45-70 cartridges, even if he overestimates their capabilities.)

Pertinax