I thought cool for buff is a .585" big chunk bullets.

In a number one or bolt gun..
The guys says it shoots easier than
smaller guns, because of its heavy barrel and balance
and kills lot faster...Check 585HE thread.Ed

quote:

If you must use a standard sitting bench, you can reduce felt recoil by sitting as up right as possible, using more or taller bags for the fore arm and the same for the butt. The higher the rifle, and then less you need to lean down into rifle the more you will absorb recoil by rocking at the hips.

JPK

That is just excellent advice.

Most as you say will make the mistake of low bags and leaning too much into the rifle.
It works OK for lighter recoiling rifles but still not optimal.

Good way to get Weatherby eyebrow as well.

But with a heavier recoiling rifle your gonna bring the pain going that route.
Sleds and past style recoil pads aside.

Biebs

What a fine rifle!
Your a lucky sob to have a beauty like that.

I took a .416 RM. Shot over 400 rounds factory and handloads in preparation, in Phoenix mainly in the summer. It is hotter in Phoenix in summer than in Mozambique where I was. Never had a problem of any sort. Seems like another old story that is currently irrelevant concerning problems with the .416 RM. I ended up using 430 grain North Forks at 2250 FPS, but shot mainly 400 @ 2400. 2 Dead buff no drama. The rifle on the other hand had some issues so the choice of rifle may be more important than any of the cartridges discussed.

Since I like big guns I have moved up to .458 Lott and .505 Gibbs, but I like the .416. A .375 will work great too. M70's are just great guns.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I took a .416 RM. Shot over 400 rounds factory and handloads in preparation, in Phoenix mainly in the summer. It is hotter in Phoenix in summer than in Mozambique where I was. Never had a problem of any sort. Seems like another old story that is currently irrelevant concerning problems with the .416 RM. I ended up using 430 grain North Forks at 2250 FPS, but shot mainly 400 @ 2400. 2 Dead buff no drama. The rifle on the other hand had some issues so the choice of rifle may be more important than any of the cartridges discussed.

Since I like big guns I have moved up to .458 Lott and .505 Gibbs, but I like the .416. A .375 will work great too. M70's are just great guns.

gunslinger55,

+1 for the above!!

I'm thinking about using the 430 NF-SS in my 416 RUM. Thus far, I've been able to achieve 2600 fps using a Re17, R700 action, and a 26" barrel.

Did they mushroom well?

Regards, AIU

IMHO, the .416 RM is one of the most versatile catridges around. Works great on everything from small plains game to elephant. That said, I've never had a Rigby, but I think the .416's are more versatile than the larger calibres and more than adequate for the big stuff, buffalo especially. Whether it's a Rigby, Remington, Taylor, Hoffman or Ruger, I'd go with a .416; just depends on your pocketbook and whether you want access to factory ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
IMHO, the .416 RM is one of the most versatile catridges around. Works great on everything from small plains game to elephant. That said, I've never had a Rigby, but I think the .416's are more versatile than the larger calibres and more than adequate for the big stuff, buffalo especially. Whether it's a Rigby, Remington, Taylor, Hoffman or Ruger, I'd go with a .416; just depends on your pocketbook and whether you want access to factory ammo.

+1 for what Lavaca said.

I used a 416 RUM on a recent trip to Tanzania. I killed two Cape buffalo at 50 yds and plains game species at over 300 yds - all with one gun. I used 400 gr NF-SS on the buffalo and 350 gr TTSX on the plains game. The 416 caliber will do it ALL!!

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I thought cool for buff is a .585" big chunk bullets.

In a number one or bolt gun..
The guys says it shoots easier than
smaller guns, because of its heavy barrel and balance
and kills lot faster...Check 585HE thread.Ed

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=699
I like this caliber even more than the .458 Win Mag.

For a buffalo rifle, just get a 416 Ruger and NEVER look back! Great rifles in your choice of blue or stainless. If you want something a little more practical buy the 375 Ruger which could also be quite useful for elk, bear, moose etc. Fun problem to have. Good luck.

Yeah I have pics of the bullets. Perfect performance on offside hide. Never used the solids because they all died rather quickly. If you are interested I can post or email them to you

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I took a .416 RM. Shot over 400 rounds factory and handloads in preparation, in Phoenix mainly in the summer. It is hotter in Phoenix in summer than in Mozambique where I was. Never had a problem of any sort. Seems like another old story that is currently irrelevant concerning problems with the .416 RM. I ended up using 430 grain North Forks at 2250 FPS, but shot mainly 400 @ 2400. 2 Dead buff no drama. The rifle on the other hand had some issues so the choice of rifle may be more important than any of the cartridges discussed.

Since I like big guns I have moved up to .458 Lott and .505 Gibbs, but I like the .416. A .375 will work great too. M70's are just great guns.

gunslinger55,

+1 for the above!!

I'm thinking about using the 430 NF-SS in my 416 RUM. Thus far, I've been able to achieve 2600 fps using a Re17, R700 action, and a 26" barrel.

Did they mushroom well?

Regards, AIU

Questions...
What twist is your Ruger #1 in 9,3x74?
Was doing some reading about how people hot loaded it with the 286 grainers around 2,500. Was thinking how well the Ruger does at keeping the 320's stable. Have you considered just getting another #1 in 450/400?

quote:

Was thinking how well the Ruger does at keeping the 320's stable. Have you considered just getting another #1 in 450/400?

Just checked spec sheet: 1:10. May have to start another thread in the medium bore forum to explore the big bullet idea.

As for the 450/400, a friend did suggest that but I dismissed it because of the single shot thing. But that's why I asked the question here.

Thanks.

The need to use a good bullet has been mentioned.

In .416" the 330grain GSC HV is now available in the US. I would read up on the philosophy behind the "new technology" and consider sending such a missle at 2700fps. The 416Ruger should be able to do that pretty easily with a 23" barrel and H4895.

quote:

Originally posted by wsj:

quote:

Was thinking how well the Ruger does at keeping the 320's stable. Have you considered just getting another #1 in 450/400?

Just checked spec sheet: 1:10. May have to start another thread in the medium bore forum to explore the big bullet idea.

As for the 450/400, a friend did suggest that but I dismissed it because of the single shot thing. But that's why I asked the question here.

Thanks.

I suggested it because if you were used to shooting the 9,3x74 #1 you might want a second in the larger chambering as a back up with identical set up. One can be used in place of the other for DG and PG with the right bullet. Spend the extra money and time saved in ammo and trips to the shooting range. Just an option. Also have a look at the Luxus single shot. http://www.luxusarms.com/ don't forget about the barrel swap single shot ability to have multiple chamberings.

Scott,
I have a .416 Taylor, a .458 Win Mag, and have had several .375 H&H's. If I were going buffalo hunting, the Taylor would be my choice. I'm shooting 400 grain bullets at 2150 fps and the recoil is no more than a .375 and about half of a .458 Win Mag.
I understand your reasons for wanting to build something different rather than buying a "cookie cutter" rifle, I have a safe full of something different. Re-barreling your Winchester shouldn't cost much more than buying a 416 Ruger and will probably mean more to you than a factory rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
With G S Custom, North Fork or CEB bullets at 410
grains, a .458 bullet at 2200 FPS will have plenty
of penetration on any buffalo. The science behind
these new bullets is detailed in michael458's book
length thread. That said, I vote for a .458 Win. Mag.
as your caliber choice; it's recoil will be like a 416
Taylor.

+1

+1 404 Jeffery

One plane ticket will get you closer to a buffalo hunt than a custom rifle or a wildcat chambering. When resources are limited you should prioritize between what gets you closer, what does nothing and what holds you back.

With your timeline, everything that doesn't get you three grand a year closer is holding you back.

Good advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
One plane ticket will get you closer to a buffalo hunt than a custom rifle or a wildcat chambering. When resources are limited you should prioritize between what gets you closer, what does nothing and what holds you back.

With your timeline, everything that doesn't get you three grand a year closer is holding you back.

quote:

With your timeline, everything that doesn't get you three grand a year closer is holding you back

With that I find no argument.

But I started this thread about a cartridge/rifle combination with which I can hunt buffalo. There's been a fairly general consensus (with a few interesting exceptions) that I need at least a 375, and bigger is fine if I can shoot it. Still leaves me one gun short of a hunt, unless I use a 9.3-something (I also have in addition to the 9.3x74R a 9.3x62 Ruger Hawkeye that I picked up used 2 years ago but have never shot; that's one of the safe queens to go on the block).

So based on pragmatic economics and leaving aside 'cool factor' my new-vs-converted decision comes down to the price of a new or used Ruger, Winchester, or CZ in an appropriate caliber vs how much $$$ my original M70 conversion plan will cost. I hope to have some numbers on that by the end of the week.

And then then the decision probably becomes either 375 or 416 Ruger if factory chambered; 416 Ruger, Taylor, or (outside possibility) 458 if converted.

Thanks all for the suggestions and advice.

-Scott

quote:

So based on pragmatic economics and leaving aside 'cool factor' my new-vs-converted decision comes down to the price of a new or used Ruger, Winchester, or CZ in an appropriate caliber vs how much $$$ my original M70 conversion plan will cost. I hope to have some numbers on that by the end of the week.

Another option that you can consider is that if you just sold or traded the SG your input costs for the buffalo rifle might be zero.

.375 is a sensible minimum, and in any event it is a step along the power path that you'd best not skip.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I'll throw in my .02.

I hunted Buffalo this summer in Zambia with my 404 Jeffery. No one has mentioned this caliber yet.

It has the history for your "cool" factor, and would be less recoil than a 416 anything, shooting the original load of a 400 gr. bullet at 2125 fps. This is in the 450/400 class of recoil others have already mentioned, which is very pleasant to shoot. If you feel the need for more speed, Hornady loads the 404J to 2300 fps, and the case is large enough to go even further.

My 404J is built on a Dakota Safari, not the African. It weighs 8.5 lbs.

You said you reload and were thinking of a 416 Taylor, so you could obviously reload for a 404J as easily as the Taylor. Plus, the 404J is beltless.

This may not be right for your situation, but it's just one more caliber for your consideration.

I agree. I've used my 404 Jeffery on 2 buff at close range, and both were dead within a few yards.

I had a model 70 crf 300 RUM converted for a reasonable price. It's a sweet rifle, and I keep meaning to either weatherproof it with ceracoat and add a synthetic stock or maybe restock it with a nice piece of walnut. But the rifle points and shoots so well, I'm almost afraid to mess with it.

I know it makes less financial sense, but I say roll with a 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby.

You're going halfway across the world to tangle with a big ball of muscle and hate - no use pretending you're practical at this point.

Spend a few extra bucks to shoot a classic.

I've stayed out of this but now I have to give my personal opinion (for what it's worth) Only having taken 5 buffalo. I have killed 2 with a .416 Rem, 1 with a .470 NE, and 2 with a .458 Lott. Different bullets, rifles, and loads. I would vote for the .416 RemMag. My .458 Lott does a wonderful job but recoil considerations make me suggest the .416 RM. If you can handle the recoil of the .458 Lott, use one. It is impressive but the .416 RM will do the job and with some less recoil.

quote:

Another option that you can consider is that if you just sold or traded the SG your input costs for the buffalo rifle might be zero.

Yep, that's an option. I doubt a used 300 WM SG with a bobbed barrel will exactly equal $$ of a buffalo rifle, but it would surely defray the out-of-pocket $$, but we'll see. On the other hand, if a conversion of it to something 375 or bigger is not much more I'd get from selling it, I'll peddle some other less appealing rifles to make it happen.

The SG has some heft to it, which I assume is mostly due to the density of the wood. I haven't weighed them, but the SG is obviously heavier than the Ruger Hawkeye and a good bit heavier than the M700 CDL 35 Whelen. The heft is part of why I thought it would be a good donor for a conversion to something suitable.

As for the "step along the power path," I'm not unduly concerned about going to 416-level power for a rifle now. I'll handload for whatever I end up with, and having 5+ years to work up to full power loads is in my favor. I can definitely see the utility of working through increasing velocity loads with something reasonably priced like the Speer 350 gr mag tip bullets (or even lead gas check bullets) on the way to a workable 400 gr hunting load.

Thanks. -Scott

quote:

know it makes less financial sense, but I say roll with a 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby.
You're going halfway across the world to tangle with a big ball of muscle and hate - no use pretending you're practical at this point. Spend a few extra bucks to shoot a classic.

Tygersman: Unless I go factory chambered rifle (new or used) I think the Rigby's out due to its length. I don't know whether the 404's a simple conversion for for my M70 but agree it's a classic and worth exploring.

Thanks. -Scott

JPK:

Your advice on the potential M70 safety issue was spot-on. I set mine to full safe (bolt locked)and then bumped sharply upward on the bolt handle with the heel of my hand to see if it would bind the safety. Took several tries but it did, and was repeatable, which means it's an issue to correct.

Did not happen the first time or every time, but I could make it happen.

Thanks! -Scott

wsj,

Too bad your M 70 is subject to the safety lock up issue. There is a description of the fix from 8yrs ago when Keith had the issue on the African Hunting forum. A search there should find it. If you print it out and give it to your gunsmith it will save him time and so save you $'s.

quote:

I also have in addition to the 9.3x74R a 9.3x62 Ruger Hawkeye

If you have a Ruger Hawkeye in 9.3x62 you have already solved the buffalo rifle dilemma! (So long as you don't buff hunt in South Africa) It would be especially nice if it was in the "African" dress, with express sights so a pop up apperature could be sighted in as a back up with only a possible change in height of the front sight. Use your 9.3x62 with either good 286gr bullets or if you want to pick up performance a bit, load up some 320gr Woodleighs!!!

Do a search using "9.3x62 Cape Buffalo" and read some of the reports on the 9.3's performance on cape buffalo. They should persuade you that the 9.3x62 is both an effective and cost effective route. And the 9.3x62 has some cool factor to it, it isn't nearly as common as a 375H&H or any of the 416's except the Taylor.

Well shot buff die remarkably easily - poorly shot buff die remarkably hard (I have, unfortunately, confirmed this first hand.) The 9.3x62's relatively mild recoil will assist in making your buff die quickly and it's performance and success are long proven with an excellent track record even longer than the 375H&H's.

JPK

the Jeffrey case is almost as long as the Rigby, but with a longer neck (.625") and skinnier body (.544"). The official COL of the Jeffry is shorter, but that just means that it stipulates a maximum nose projection of .7" instead of .85 of the Rigby. Practically speaking they are the same since the Jeffrey case is 2.86" and the Rigby is 2.90". Not much length difference. The Rigby holds over 20 grains more powder.

On bullets, a 400grain is basically a lead core. A mono-metal is best at around 330-350 grains. The mono can then use the extra velocity effectively for a wider wound channel.

So this is what happened to me. Luckily I found it as we were in the Buff. I ripped the safety out with a leatherman. Interesting. I like the firing pin block function though and the bolt lock down. Note: It was NOT a M70!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
JPK:

Here is the description of the malfunction:

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../1411043/m/699106902

I had incorrectly though he had the safety in the middle position but he clearly says it was in the full safe position.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So this is what happened to me. Luckily I found it as we were in the Buff. I ripped the safety out with a leatherman. Interesting. I like the firing pin block function though and the bolt lock down. Note: It was NOT a M70!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
JPK:

Here is the description of the malfunction:

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../1411043/m/699106902

I had incorrectly though he had the safety in the middle position but he clearly says it was in the full safe position.

What was it?

I know some, maybe all M 70 derivatives are subject to the possibility. My 375H&H could be made to lock up before JJ fixed it, it is a Dakota.

JPK

quote:

If you have a Ruger Hawkeye in 9.3x62 you have already solved the buffalo rifle dilemma! (So long as you don't buff hunt in South Africa)

Hey, the 9.3 is a great cartridge, but it has 24 grains LESS capacity than the 375Ruger. The 375 provides a lot of flexibility for a handloader. For a Hawkeye and buffalo I would go up rather than down from a 375, meaning that we're back to the 416Ruger as an entry level buffalo rifle.

Powder capacity, velocity aren't everything in a given caliber.

Once the threshold for the purpose is met they do add some versatility, but at the expense of recoil and often at the expense of other considerations. {Here, the 9.3 threshold for cape buffalo is known through more than a century of success with the 9.3x74R and the 9.3x62 to be about 2250fps mv for a 286gr bullet.}

A 9.3x64 is certainly a more versatile rifle than a 9.3x62, offering about 300fps or so more velocity with either the 286gr bullets or 320gr bullets, but it won't kill deader. Both cartridges are flat enough shooting for buff hunting with either bullet, especially if a hunter (wisely) wishes to hunt his DG at close ranges.

Moreover, with saving for the buff hunting safari a consideration, the price of the already owned 9.3x62 can not be beat!

When someone focuses on powder capacity and velocity well beyond a known threshold, I like to cite the 30 cal line up. Starting at or near the whitetail deer threshold with the 300ACC we move to the 30-30, 300 Savage, 308, 30-06, 300WSM, 300wm, 300 H&H, 300RUSM, 300RUM more or less in order, and I'm sure missing a few. How much deader does a 300RUM make a whitetail deer than a, say, 30-30 or 300ACC? Answer is none, but the 300RUM makes it easier to hit the deer at 400yds, if that is hunting to you, and so it is arguably more versatile for use on deer.

JPK

quote:

Moreover, with saving for the buff hunting safari a consideration, the price of the already owned 9.3x62 can not be beat!

Unless the 9.3x62 was actually a Whelen, or a single shot, and unless the country wants .375" minimum.
So an entry level buffalo rifle would seem pretty nice as a 416Ruger, which I've never owned but have been more than a little impressed with the design and boldness of Ruger.

I was testing a McMillan CRF model in .416. This rifle was dragged for 8 days before this tracking Buff in the forest. We were right in the Buff and had shootable Bulls and I was getting ready to back up the wife and the safety was locked. I freaked and fiddled with it for a minute or so then ripped the whole lever out of bolt shroud. Ran it without safety for rest of hunt. Use bolt lever "up" for safe, "down" for fire. PH's had no problem and keep chamber empty until needed. Not ideal but was a real pisser and could get you killed for sure. I had an extractor problem as well in the states. Bolts were outsourced and I am sure have since been corrected (I hope). McMillan rifles has since (surprisingly) been sold. I will only take my own rifles from now on, unless it impacts me getting into the "movie". The ammo worked great though

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So this is what happened to me. Luckily I found it as we were in the Buff. I ripped the safety out with a leatherman. Interesting. I like the firing pin block function though and the bolt lock down. Note: It was NOT a M70!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
JPK:

Here is the description of the malfunction:

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../1411043/m/699106902

I had incorrectly though he had the safety in the middle position but he clearly says it was in the full safe position.

What was it?

I know some, maybe all M 70 derivatives are subject to the possibility. My 375H&H could be made to lock up before JJ fixed it, it is a Dakota.

JPK

quote:

Unless the 9.3x62 was actually a Whelen, or a single shot, and unless the country wants .375" minimum.

Tanzan,

I'm not sure I'm getting the first two. A Whelen? And wjs tells us his 9.3x62 is a Hawkeye, which should be three or four down. If I recall correctly, only South Africa has a 375 minimum, and it would be easy - and less expensive - not to hunt cape buffalo in SA.

I thought the beginning of thread mentioned a 35Whelen.

On Africa, Tanzania also requires a 375 minimum, which is why my wife didn't pursue a 9.3x62 Tikka last year.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I thought the beginning of thread mentioned a 35Whelen.

On Africa, Tanzania also requires a 375 minimum, which is why my wife didn't pursue a 9.3x62 Tikka last year.

I didn't realize that Tanzania also specifies a 375 minimum. I find that a bit odd since one would think that former European rather than English colonies would lean on the history of European rather than English cartridges. Especially Tanzania with it's prior German ties.

And I have to say I originally found Zimbabwe's specification of the 9.3 rather than the 375H&H a bit odd for the same reason given Zimbabwe's history.

FWIW, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt buff with wjs's 9.3x74R No1.

JPK

I have to 'fess up on using a 338WM. It works.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I have to 'fess up on using a 338WM. It works.

HMM, that one isn't either European or English!

I agree with JPK on the 9.3 x 62. Squirrel Meredith of Swainsons Safaris in Zim has huge respect for this calibre and after my first buffalo hunt with him when the 9.3 dispatched 3 buffalo with 3 shots he was visibly upset when I arrived on subsequent hunts with any other calibre. In SA excellent quality softs are freely available now from barnes vortex and federal with the swift A frame. PMP also make a good soft in factory load but I wouldnt recommend them on buffalo. The only factory loaded solid available here is the new norma brass solid which weighs 275 gr which was I believe the personal project/brainchild of don heath while he was at norma. I havent tried these on elephant or buffalo although don used this bullet to kill that young ele bull in mana pools as seen on the norma video. The 286 gr woodleigh solids, which must be handloaded ,are great( suit the small case capacity) and I have had excellent results on both buffalo and elephant with them.